|
"Democrats are just too smart to win" has been the narrative since Adlai Stevenson. e: terrible snipe, I am so sorry
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2021 09:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 17:19 |
|
|
Unreconstructed #StillWithHer is apparently a pretty common attitude in the entertainment industry. See also about the only coherent reading of the whole Holdo thing in The Last Jedi.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2021 12:21
|
|
|
All cartoon parodies of Trump and 2016 were dreadful and unfunny with no exceptions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 01:12
|
|
|
readingatwork posted:Finally got caught up on Duncanville and drat I haaaaated the election episode. Though to it's credit I hate like 98% of sitcom election episodes for very similar reasons. I get that subjective reality alters everyone's perspectives based on their past experiences and beliefs, but we must be in a movie theater cause there's a lot of projecting going on over here. I watched this same episode and didn't get any of this out of it, watched it again after reading your post to see if I missed something the first time and frankly none of it lines up. This feels more like a "you" thing rather than a thing that was in anyway intended by anyone involved with making the show. 1) You claim the show was subtly trying to do a Trump/Hilary thing, but how? At no point do Duncan or Mia quote anything said by either Hilary or Trump, nor does Duncan do anything that could serve as a parallel to the Trump Presidency upon being elected. As far as I noticed the only presidential quote that was refenced was Reagan's "tear down your wall", and honestly Reagan vs. Carter fits the episode way better than Trump vs. Hilary what with the whole one candidate (Mia) wanting to do a bunch of boring sounding environmental stuff while the other candidate (Duncan) promises to do a bunch of things that will cause short term prosperity for a select amount of people and then bring about serious long term damage. You even said within your post that Mia losing doesn't match up with the reason Hilary lost. 2.) Once again you point out that what Duncan did doesn't match up with anything Trump did, which kind of defeats the whole overall point of your argument. You also don't seem to understand why what Duncan did was wrong, even though he locked all the teacher's in the basement and spent the school's entire budget within a week on a bunch of dangerous stuff that led to the entire student body being attacked by bears. Like you said nobody in politics runs on just giving everyone what they want, that's something a dumb teenager would do, which is what Duncan is. Shenanigans ensue. 3.) I'm old and out of touch, but how was a bunch of kids getting excited about dancing bears trying to "stick it to youth culture"? A cute animal did a cute thing on the internet and people thought it was neat, that happens with teenagers and adults all the time. It's just that in this case the cute animals were bears and bears are incredibly violent when not fed and Duncan spent all of the schools money and didn't have any cash leftover to buy bear food and thus the bears attacked. The moral here is "feed the bears you hired to dance or else they'll eat your face" which isn't a lesson that's political in nature, but still one that's important to learn none the less. It seems like you have some PTSD regarding the 2016 election, and I get that, but in this case it's making you see things and make connections that aren't actually there. Pararoid posted:All cartoon parodies of Trump and 2016 were dreadful and unfunny with no exceptions. The American Dad! Episode "Railroaded" is an exception to this rule, but from what I've seen it's the only exception.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 04:47
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Unreconstructed #StillWithHer is apparently a pretty common attitude in the entertainment industry. See also about the only coherent reading of the whole Holdo thing in The Last Jedi. Is it that Holdo was an idiot? EDIT: To be fair, every character in that movie acted like an idiot at drat near every opportunity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 05:29
|
|
|
Megillah Gorilla posted:Is it that Holdo was an idiot? Indeed. Though more that the aristocratic calm white woman spends the movie talking down to the hot-blooded bro (who happens to be Latino) to stop questioning her and support her unwaveringly because She Has A Plan and he should be respecting the chain of command (despite that never, ever being a thing with the Rebels or Resistance) and she would have saved them all if it weren't for all the minorities refusing to do what they're told. (Some suspect that it was supposed to be old white guy Han Solo she was calling out for his cowboy ways, but he's dead, which may be its own fitting analogy on top of all that) It may seem contrived, but it's pretty much the only explanation I've heard that actually makes that whole plot make any sort of coherent sense.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 07:37
|
|
|
The idea that adults failing to communicate effectively is a plot hole is something that makes no sense to me. Because like it happens a LOT.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 09:10
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:The idea that adults failing to communicate effectively is a plot hole is something that makes no sense to me. Its one of those things that while realistic is also incredibly annoying and unsatisfying if used too often in fictional contexts
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 11:10
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Its one of those things that while realistic is also incredibly annoying and unsatisfying if used too often in fictional contexts Right, like how people IRL act irrationally or selfishly all the time but if someone in a video game or a cartoon does something irrational or emotional it gets lampooned as bad writing
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 12:12
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Indeed. Though more that the aristocratic calm white woman spends the movie talking down to the hot-blooded bro (who happens to be Latino) to stop questioning her and support her unwaveringly because She Has A Plan and he should be respecting the chain of command (despite that never, ever being a thing with the Rebels or Resistance) and she would have saved them all if it weren't for all the minorities refusing to do what they're told. (Some suspect that it was supposed to be old white guy Han Solo she was calling out for his cowboy ways, but he's dead, which may be its own fitting analogy on top of all that) Even the best reading of her actions is still terrible. There's literally no reason for her not to tell Poe her plan. In fact, if your plan is "we need to do precisely this and nothing else or we're all going to die," then you need to be communicating that with your crew of incredibly capable and independent people used to taking instant action as they see fit when you need them to sit down and be quiet for a while. Instead, after first allowing him to take an attack wing of fighters and bombers right out from under her nose at the start of the movie because she didn't communicate with her people, she spends the rest of the movie not communicating with her people as they again run around under her nose desperately trying to save their friends. But she made a noble sacrifice! Yes, defending the Rebellion who, by the end of the movie, had been so reduced in numbers that the entire Rebel Alliance could fit aboard the Millennium Falcon.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 14:09
|
|
|
Megillah Gorilla posted:Even the best reading of her actions is still terrible. There's literally no reason for her not to tell Poe her plan. In fact, if your plan is "we need to do precisely this and nothing else or we're all going to die," then you need to be communicating that with your crew of incredibly capable and independent people used to taking instant action as they see fit when you need them to sit down and be quiet for a while. I believe the idea is that the New Order had just tracked them through hyperspace, and while the audience knows it's some new technology of theirs, the best assumption the rebels could make is that someone on board is a mole. With that in mind, sharing the plan with anyone is dangerous, since even if they aren't the mole they could end up telling the mole and ending any chance they would have of getting anywhere safely. But with that being said, the movie really could have used a moment alone with Holdo where she's working out her assumptions and decisions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 14:41
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:The idea that adults failing to communicate effectively is a plot hole is something that makes no sense to me. Basically, the problem is that stories aren't real life and characters aren't people so rigid adherence to realism isn't always the correct choice. A character may show human behavior but at the end of the day it's a symbolic stand-in for various ideas/ideologies/personality traits/etc which a writer can then put in various situations and create meaning from the outcomes. So for example let's say we have a story "a greedy character does something greedy and gets punished for it, resulting in them not being greedy anymore". From this story we can draw the meaning "being greedy is bad". However, once you start making the plot hinge on stupidity, chance, poor communication, or other factors that aren't core aspects of your characters things start to fall apart and the story looses some of it's meaning. Which is why "A greedy character gets in trouble because he did a crime in the dumbest way possible and then decides to not be greedy anymore" doesn't really work. Is the moral now "don't be greedy" or "be better at crimes"? For best results, you want to have your characters make the best decisions possible while still remaining true to their core character traits so that the meaning of your story stays as clear as possible. Just to be clear, that's not to say you can't ~ever~ have chance or bad decisions affect a story. But they need to be handled intentionally and as a reflection of the character's personalities. Zapp Brannigan failing to communicate with his crew (and getting called out on it by the plot) makes sense because being a bad leader is his entire thing. Picard doing the same thing and nobody ever mentioning it on the other hand doesn't work because he's supposed to know what he's doing and this just feels like the writer didn't notice the issue.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
It does feel to me like the movie was missing a subplot about spy paranoia.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 19:02
|
|
|
I kinda liked the 2016 take that the Amazing World of Gumball had, which also didn't really get the political machinations right, but it did sure do a neat job of laying out the issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1pNAu84c8c Bust Rodd posted:Right, like how people IRL act irrationally or selfishly all the time but if someone in a video game or a cartoon does something irrational or emotional it gets lampooned as bad writing It's more that if you want to rest the plot on characters being stupid or disfunctional, you either need to depict them aesthetically as stupid or disfunctional, or else you need to give them an excuse for how this time is an exception rather than trying to portray someone as competent and yet they only seem to make everything in the story worse. It's a contradiction in the way the story is told, and isn't very fun or satisfying to follow. Last Jedi basically tries to have it three ways at once. Either the hotshot pilot is a maniac for trying to run the entire war and attempting a coup after being demoted, or the admiral is a garbage leader who doesn't know tactics and can't inspire any loyalty or obedience in her subordinates, but the movie also tries to play both of them as heroes by the end without really earning it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
poe is an idiot and I'm glad she didn't tell him anything
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
Bobbin Threadbare posted:I believe the idea is that the New Order had just tracked them through hyperspace, and while the audience knows it's some new technology of theirs, the best assumption the rebels could make is that someone on board is a mole. With that in mind, sharing the plan with anyone is dangerous, since even if they aren't the mole they could end up telling the mole and ending any chance they would have of getting anywhere safely. That would have made sense, but the movie always picks the worst option. We see Leia show off that she's got some sort of doodad that will allow Rey to find them once she finds Luke, and then in the very next scene they find out the First Order is tracking them. These two things must be connected, right? Nope. Okay, then there's a spy on board. makes sense, since tracking through hyperspace is supposedly impossible. Nope, some random rear end security guard not only knows the First Order has this technology, but how it works and exactly how they implement it. It's just badly written.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
The way I heard it described is that Holdo is basically the representative of the new direction Star Wars is taking in TLJ, where actions have consequences and solders should obey their commanding officers, and for this reason the other characters are legitimately annoyed and threatened by her because they've been running on the previous set of Star Wars rules where hotshots doing their own thing is effective and correct, and nobody told them that the rules were changing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 20:51
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:The way I heard it described is that Holdo is basically the representative of the new direction Star Wars is taking in TLJ, where actions have consequences and solders should obey their commanding officers, and for this reason the other characters are legitimately annoyed and threatened by her because they've been running on the previous set of Star Wars rules where hotshots doing their own thing is effective and correct, and nobody told them that the rules were changing. The new way sounds worse.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 21:16
|
|
|
The way to defeat fascist hierarchy is with more fascist hierarchy, get w/ the program
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 21:18
|
|
|
The 7th Guest posted:poe is an idiot and I'm glad she didn't tell him anything Poe is an idiot and insubordinate but Holdo is objectively a bad leader. Trust is a two way street!
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 21:53
|
|
|
The entire rebellion leadership is worthless if the entire government collapses after only 30 years and the empire can make a return to power, when its implied that basically the empire had completely collapsed beforehand.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 22:18
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I kinda liked the 2016 take that the Amazing World of Gumball had, which also didn't really get the political machinations right, but it did sure do a neat job of laying out the issues. Gumball owns and this episode is good but it’s doing another thing that bugs me in election episodes where it conflates liberal status quo technocrats with leftist firebrands so it loses a few points there. I swear to god I’m going to give myself a stroke trying to explain the difference to people someday. Space Cadet Omoly posted:I get that subjective reality alters everyone's perspectives based on their past experiences and beliefs, but we must be in a movie theater cause there's a lot of projecting going on over here. You are correct that I have terminal 2016 poisoning so feel free to take my takes with a grain of salt. I mostly just wanted to bitch about the “smart nerd vs dumb guy election” trope so feel free to ignore the first point entirely if you’d like. That said I don’t ~think~ I’m wrong here. Mostly because I’ve seen takes like this before and I find it hard believe that any progressively minded piece of election media made during the Trump years could be made without Hillary’s loss at least a little bit in mind. Art is subjective though and reasonable people can disagree I suppose.  Not the flossing bear thing though. That was objectively bad and I will die on this hill. Did kids even care about that dance for more than five seconds!? Please help I’m very old and can no longer understand anybody under 30.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 22:35
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:It's more that if you want to rest the plot on characters being stupid or disfunctional, you either need to depict them aesthetically as stupid or disfunctional, or else you need to give them an excuse for how this time is an exception rather than trying to portray someone as competent and yet they only seem to make everything in the story worse. You're discarding basically most of classical tragedy up through Shakespeare here. Ambiguity as to whether someone in a story did the right or even the smartest thing is perfectly fine, I don't understand why people have such a low tolerance for people in stories making potentially bad decisions (and the fact that TLJ arguments always have someone arguing pro and con re: Holdo's actions seems to show that her actions are in fact understandable, just polarizing.) Like a central theme of the film is failure as something to learn from, and in particular the failure of authority figures/institutions. The Jedi of old failed, Luke failed, Holdo and Poe both kinda screwed up because of a lack of trust, and arguably the entire New Republic failed in allowing the First Order to come into existence under their noses and trying to solve things by sponsoring a proxy Resistance. You can quibble about execution in terms of pacing, dialogue, cinematography, whatever, but the entire approach of reading "character takes suboptimal action" as a plot hole is near-Cinemasins behavior.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 23:28
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:You're discarding basically most of classical tragedy up through Shakespeare here. I don't think that is the case at all though, the movie is very obviously trying to celebrate the old guard, and not reprimand them for their failures. Hell, Kylo Ren talks about destroying the old and create something new, and he is supposed to be villainous when he says that. Granted, the movie has some mixed messages with Luke Skywalker destroying the sacred tree, and him causing Kylo Ren to defect to the First Order in the first place. That might have been an attempt to get away from the Jedis being turned into a creepy cult in the prequels though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2021 23:55
|
|
|
IShallRiseAgain posted:I don't think that is the case at all though, the movie is very obviously trying to celebrate the old guard, and not reprimand them for their failures. Hell, Kylo Ren talks about destroying the old and create something new, and he is supposed to be villainous when he says that. Well yeah, you don't destroy the old- you don't wipe out the past, you acknowledge the bad and the good and you, hopefully, learn. The past provides the foundation. "We are what they grow beyond." Ren thinks he can just wipe it all away and when you act like that you learn nothing. Like if the movie was *just* about celebrating the old guard they wouldn't have them making any mistakes at all. That's clearly not the point, whatever intent you read into the filmmakers. If it was that, why Yoda's speech about failure? quote:Granted, the movie has some mixed messages with Luke Skywalker destroying the sacred tree, and him causing Kylo Ren to defect to the First Order in the first place. That might have been an attempt to get away from the Jedis being turned into a creepy cult in the prequels though. I mean, "Creepy cult" is why the Jedi failed. There's still some assumption that George Lucas somehow screwed up when he showed them as a flawed institution, and even if he did- well, that still makes sense as a plot right? You can quibble about the dialogue or the acting but the basic premise of "the Jedi have problems" is not a bad one. But really, the intent doesn't matter- you have to look at the text itself. In the prequels the Jedi are a complacent and largely conservative institution that fails to see the danger coming to them. In The Last Jedi, people with good intentions make mistakes and we have to deal with the fallout. Kylo's wrong because he thinks you can sweep it all away.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2021 00:16
|
|
|
I really don't feel like The Last Jedi shows the characters being in any way better off at the end of the movie than they are at the beginning, where 90% of the people they were trying to save are dead, with a whole scene definitively demonstrating how literally nobody throughout the galaxy cares about their struggle and the entire universe is under Kyle's control except for one space-winnebago. And it's definitely not a Shakespeare thing to try to save face for the other big name characters to make the audience feel better about liking them even after they were a jerk. It's not just that the movie itself refuses to acknowledge that one of these opposing characters should be wrong, but the characters themselves don't seem to really value the things they were arguing about before. Which there are atguments you can just kinda forget, but people died for the sake of both of these idiots' dumb plans and people were held at gunpoint. That's not something that you can just drop. It's just so weird and seemingly out of character how Holdo is all positive about Poe before she goes off to sacrifice herself in a way that apparently the nameless fishmen she had dying horribly onscreen in the name of her plan weren't allowed to do. And definitely the New Republic features in zero themes in the movies because literally nobody mentions the New Republic ever existing. readingatwork posted:Gumball owns and this episode is good but it’s doing another thing that bugs me in election episodes where it conflates liberal status quo technocrats with leftist firebrands so it loses a few points there. I swear to god I’m going to give myself a stroke trying to explain the difference to people someday. Idaho talked more directly about redistributing resources, but sadly he was too busy spinning in the air to weigh in on anything. There are a lot of problems with the way that popular perception of politics doesn't seem to line up with what actually is happening, but I don't know what can really be done about that. Most mainstream media really doesn't want to deal with intra-party politics, so a lot of people are simmering with their own idea of what happened that they will never talk about unless they're screaming at somebody else with an opposing view.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2021 00:26
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I really don't feel like The Last Jedi shows the characters being in any way better off at the end of the movie than they are at the beginning, where 90% of the people they were trying to save are dead, with a whole scene definitively demonstrating how literally nobody throughout the galaxy cares about their struggle and the entire universe is under Kyle's control except for one space-winnebago. Well no, this is the middle act. But the last scene of course is a child across the galaxy taking inspiration from Luke's sacrifice- a stand that was itself an illusion, but a hopeful one. quote:And it's definitely not a Shakespeare thing to try to save face for the other big name characters to make the audience feel better about liking them even after they were a jerk. It's not just that the movie itself refuses to acknowledge that one of these opposing characters should be wrong, but the characters themselves don't seem to really value the things they were arguing about before What would "the movie itself acknowledging these characters could be wrong" even look like? We are presented with both their sides. We are shown their actions. If the movie plays sad music when Holdo dies that's at most saying "she's one of the good guys making a sacrifice", not "She Was Absolutely Right About Everything". Like a character can be heroic but also be wrong? That's a thing! It happens! And maybe Poe was wrong too! Maybe he wasn't! The point of the film is not "some people should be listened to and some should not," it's about people actually not knowing what to do because the situation has gotten desperate and complicated. Like, that's... just basic drama. Like, you're attributing a lot of intent to things without clear evidence- why so sure that Holdo saying something nice about Poe is "saving face to make the audience feel better about liking them"? Why is Holdo saying something positive about Poe so strange to you that it needs an explanation?
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2021 00:44
|
|
|
No more posts about The Last Jedi in the loving animation thread.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2021 00:50
|
|
|
Yo there's another thread for this: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3911970&pagenumber=62#post515294921
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2021 01:31
|
|
|
readingatwork posted:Gumball owns and this episode is good but it’s doing another thing that bugs me in election episodes where it conflates liberal status quo technocrats with leftist firebrands so it loses a few points there. I swear to god I’m going to give myself a stroke trying to explain the difference to people someday. It's true that we'll never know for sure what the writers were intending (unless they tell us on the DVD commentary), and I would agree that the episode is a bad take on the 2016 election, but there are absolutely no references to anything related to the 2016 election (Duncan never puts on a red cap or says he's going to "make the school great again", Mia doesn't call anyone deplorable or get called a nasty woman, there are a million stupid jokes they could have done that I've seen on a million other shows that did 2016 election spoofs. A million is probably an exaggeration, but it feels like a million) so I'm inclined to give the show the benefit of the doubt and assume that the reason it doesn't match up at all with the 2016 election is because that wasn't what they were trying to do and it was instead just a "irresponsible person gets power and does dumb poo poo" plot because that's an easy set for jokes (but again, if on the DVD commentary they say "this episode was intended to parody the 2016 election" then you automatically retroactively win this argument). And for what it's worth, Mia didn't just lose because she was smart, she lost because she was only focusing on things she cared about and not what the rest of the students were interested in. The rest of the school only starts listening to her when she finally brings up topics they actually care about and how Duncan's actions as president will negatively impact those things (like prom and whatever key club is). Like, she started out wanting to cancel prom so everyone could go clean up a river, I wouldn't have voted for her either. I'm apparently even older and more out of touch than you are because the bear thing didn't even register as cringe to me, I wasn't even aware that was a dance kids were into at any point in time. Like, you're probably right, but I'll never know. The only thing I noticed was that there was a polar bear, and grizzly bear, and a panda bear, like in We Bare Bears! And that's about where my pop cultural awareness ends.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2021 01:44
|
|
|
Against all odds: that was a very good episode of Final Space. Show finally good?
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:Against all odds: that was a very good episode of Final Space. Show finally good? I've enjoyed this entire season but the latest episode was a gut punch.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 04:06
|
|
|
I honestly found that one a bit forced.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 06:54
|
|
|
It had been building for a while. What's awkward is there's a lot to resolve next episode considering there's no word on a next season.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 07:13
|
|
|
HouseBroken is kind of bad but also kind of good for a few solid moments per episode. They get a lot of mileage out of the fact that dogs are great.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2021 06:17
|
|
|
Hoo-loving-ray, the UK is finally getting Harley Quinn S2, along with Birdgirl and Rick & Morty S5 at the same time. Not a bad summer haul, not sure why they put off Harley Quinn for so long though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2021 10:44
|
|
|
Not my thing, personally, but for fans of the first season, Tuca & Bertie returns this evening https://twitter.com/adultswim/status/1402993795587735555?s=21
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 13:18
|
|
|
It's my thing and I'm very happy about it!
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 14:17
|
|
|
Yeah I really love the art style and the cast is out of this world good... but I just hate Tuca's archtype and really didn't like how season 1 ended and where they went with everything. Lisa Hanawalt and her amazing team should have steady employment forever though, she's awesome and her art direction is really special.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 14:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 17:19 |
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:Yeah I really love the art style and the cast is out of this world good... but I just hate Tuca's archtype and really didn't like how season 1 ended and where they went with everything. Lisa Hanawalt and her amazing team should have steady employment forever though, she's awesome and her art direction is really special. I feel like you are supposed to have mixed feelings about tuca. Like she's an extrovert and it's ruining her life and you are supposed to see that immediately and be frustrated she does stupid/destructive/self sabotaging/annoying things, then the show is for introverts and you are supposed to relate to berdie and she's doing all the exact same thing tuca does but it a less manic way. Like it's not that you should like berdie and not tuca, it's that they are the same person dealing with things in equal but opposite ways that go to the same outcome.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 15:10
|
|
