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Random thought unrelated to the discussion, but maybe it's just the relative temporal association of the two properties but the Chronicles books, this one in particular, have always made me relate the general cosmology of Animorphs to StarCraft in so many ways, specifically when it comes to the Yeerks and the Andalites. There was always feeling that the Yeerks were the Zerg and the Andalites were the Protoss in terms of how their civilizations were generally structured and their relation to one another. What with the proud caste-divided warrior race presented as the apex of physical form and the dominant galactic power with crystal technology that's basically magic, and their creepy gooey body horror antagonists who all bicker and backstab each other in their quest to absolutely gently caress up their hated superior enemy. Hell, the Vissers are basically just the Cerebrates, all they're missing is an Overmind (Crayak)
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# ? Jun 4, 2021 01:01 |
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# ? May 23, 2024 09:35 |
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Chapter 24 Dak Hamee quote:We marched up the valley. We marched beneath the trees. In the branches overhead, more and more Hork-Bajir were following us. Hundreds now. All watching, waiting. The final horror began. Chapter 25 Aldrea quote:The battle raged! So the Andalites know now. The time of the Hork-Bajir liberation is at hand!
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# ? Jun 4, 2021 03:42 |
And then the final horror began. That's such a great line. This is what I alluded to earlier, and god - they just do such a great job of selling that war is awful, and no one wins.
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# ? Jun 4, 2021 03:58 |
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nine-gear crow posted:Random thought unrelated to the discussion, but maybe it's just the relative temporal association of the two properties but the Chronicles books, this one in particular, have always made me relate the general cosmology of Animorphs to StarCraft in so many ways, specifically when it comes to the Yeerks and the Andalites. There was always feeling that the Yeerks were the Zerg and the Andalites were the Protoss in terms of how their civilizations were generally structured and their relation to one another. Yeah, I don't think it's much of a coincidence that the game was developed over the first few years of this series. You look at Metzen's sketches from 95-97, or even the early alpha and beta screenshots, and they're pretty different from the final product. Starcraft always wore its influences on its sleeve; Zerg are Alien-Xenomorph Borg Yeerks, animal monsters who will take your body and warp it and use it to improve themselves; Protoss are Predator Stargate-Egyptian (and ID4 alien?) Andalites, arrogant, technologically centuries ahead of the humans, and not afraid to engage in a little light genocide (of other species, of course) to win the war.
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# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:35 |
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Posting early today for various reasons, and only one chapter, because, as you see, there's going to be a break in the narrative. Chapter 26 Dak Hamee quote:The monsters were cut down, one by one, falling over each other, piles of twisted, hideous flesh. But the Hork-Bajir dropped from the trees and did as I had shown them: They attacked the Hork-Bajir-Controllers. The first battle in all the history of our people. The first time any Hork-Bajir had killed another. I leave you with the poem "After Blenheim", by English romantic poet Robert Southey. quote:It was a summer evening,
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# ? Jun 4, 2021 21:35 |
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Dak being rather hard on himself. He didn't destroy their past. The Yeerks did. I know that war is an awful experience to have regardless of the cause, but I've never believed that all wars are always futile. Certainly most of them - the Blenheim poem, IIRC, is about the War of Spanish Succession, and it's pretty hosed that hundreds of generations of European peasants spent their lives getting conscripted into battles about which rich rear end in a top hat noble deserved which throne. But the Civil War, World War II, arguably the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia - good came of those wars, even if the motives of the "good guys" weren't entirely selfless, and good will come of victory over the Yeerks, if they do win, even if the Andalites aren't being entirely selfless about it either. Since we know KA is a LOTR fan I'll add that Dak's anguish about how his people will have to become either slaves or killers reminded me of this: quote:“I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo.
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 05:09 |
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Speaking of the Civil War, I'm reminded of a particular quote by William Tecumseh Sherman:quote:I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of fighting — its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers […] it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated […] that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 06:52 |
Interesting that you choose to cite Saint Billy...
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 07:16 |
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Let's read Animorphs: Do as Dak Hamee has done
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 08:14 |
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I forgot how hosed up this book is.
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 12:04 |
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Speaking of the Civil War, I'm reminded of a particular quote by William Tecumseh Sherman: "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy." – Christopher Dawson
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 12:23 |
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SirSamVimes posted:I forgot how hosed up this book is. I had forgotten the details of this book, but I don’t think my subconscious ever forgot it. Probably why The Things They Carried hosed me up less than it should have when I read it a couple years later (still way too young by far).
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 13:24 |
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Epicurius posted:
This, but unironically.
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# ? Jun 5, 2021 15:19 |
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freebooter posted:Dak being rather hard on himself. He didn't destroy their past. The Yeerks did. Dak knows that whether they beat the Yeerks or not, the old Hork-Bajir culture will be destroyed. If they lose, they become slaves. If they win, they become killers.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 04:17 |
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Chapter 27 Aldrea quote:Seven months passed, and the fleet did not come. Not the two months I had expected. Perhaps Zero-space had shifted, leaving the Hork-Bajir home world farther away than it had been. That happens frequently. Or maybe the princes simply didn’t believe me. Or maybe, maybe, maybe. I went through every “maybe” I could think of. And still the fleet did not come. In case you haven't guessed, everything was not all right. And this is the change in society Dak is afraid of. Jagil now boasts of his Yeerk-killer prowress. I mean, they even have a word for killer now. Chapter 28 Dak Hamee quote:Andalite fighters landed in the clearing where Aldrea’s family had lived. They were battle scarred. But when the hatches opened, the Andalites who stepped out seemed confident. So, the Andalites are here and their charming selves, and not really equipped to fight a war of this magnitude.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 04:29 |
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I know the Andalites are generally a stand-in for Global Policeman USA, but the ones here come off as rather... British, somehow. Scary-looking brute!quote:<Was that wise, Dak? They’ve come to help.> A concern also expressed by the Animorphs. I like it how Dak stands his ground and makes the prince come to him - a diplomatic power move mirrored near the end of the series when Jake kicks them off the Pool Ship when they want to talk privately.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 05:18 |
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freebooter posted:I know the Andalites are generally a stand-in for Global Policeman USA, but the ones here come off as rather... British, somehow. Scary-looking brute! I said it before but the Andalites definitely have some major Napoleonic-era Royal Navy vibes. Except of course that they are far, far less competent.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 07:13 |
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Spending resources putting a national park on top of all of your battleships while losing an existential war against brain stealing parasites is an interesting choice.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 15:36 |
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Spending resources putting a national park on top of all of your battleships while losing an existential war against brain stealing parasites is an interesting choice. It reminds me of the Enterprise D, which could detach the saucer section (where all the families and science sections were) and fight with just the lower half of the ship, where the torpedoes and warp drives were. (They didn't use this very often, possibly because it required switching sets and didn't look very cool) But, yeah, the Federation wasn't at war at the time it was designed, so...
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 16:17 |
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Spending resources putting a national park on top of all of your battleships while losing an existential war against brain stealing parasites is an interesting choice. Honestly, it had probably been in development for a while before the war started, and it's probably psychologically important for the Andalites, who have a fear of confined spaces. If anything, if you're ramping up the military, the Dome Ship is probably more important, because it both increases the number of Andalites who are fit for space travel and also reduces the need for shore leave. I'm also not convinced that at this point the Andalites consider this an existential war. A bunch of rebel Yeerks stole a few Andalite spaceships and are roaming free in the galaxy. It's a concern, of course, and the Andalites are trying to hunt down, but unless the Yeerks happen to find a planet with a large population of a species whose body can easily be used for combat and who are too technologically primitive to detect Andalite ships in orbit, well.....oh.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 16:44 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 17:12 |
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Epicurius posted:
Also the Arn genetically modifying themselves to have aneurysms is kind of darkly hilarious.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 17:36 |
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Epicurius posted:Honestly, it had probably been in development for a while before the war started, and it's probably psychologically important for the Andalites, who have a fear of confined spaces. If anything, if you're ramping up the military, the Dome Ship is probably more important, because it both increases the number of Andalites who are fit for space travel and also reduces the need for shore leave. Yeah that's a good point. I think in this one they don't see it as that big of a deal. By the Andalite Chronicles Elfangor mentions that they're thinking about increasing the birth rate but he doesn't think it's that dire yet, so the higher ups are at least moderately worried but the population at large isn't yet. By the time of the Animorphs books I think they must realize it's getting pretty dangerous, the Leeran planet was a desperate battle and they've lost a dome ship which is probably the equivalent of the US losing an aircraft carrier.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 18:59 |
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Yeerk intelligence/ingenuity must be really impressive, for them to have so quickly transformed portions of complete wilderness into industrial capacity able to build spaceships. Perhaps the Ongachic were very skilled engineers (which might explain why we never see any in combat) and the stolen technology had replicator-type capabilities. It is also a shame we never got a Taxxon Chronicles, their absence in this book and what little we know from Andalite Chronicles makes me really curious about the circumstances of their alliance with the Yeerks.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 19:04 |
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I thought the idea was that being Yeerk'd gave them some relief from the overwhelming hunger.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 19:34 |
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KA had said she was planning on making a Taxxon Chronicles, but I think she had said she didn't really like the Taxxons had trouble coming up with ideas for the book and in making them sympathetic. It's hard to write from the point of view of something that's starving all the time. Keep watching this space, though, because Taxxons do play a major role in one of the future books, and it's the closest thing we probably get.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 21:38 |
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Epicurius posted:KA had said she was planning on making a Taxxon Chronicles, but I think she had said she didn't really like the Taxxons had trouble coming up with ideas for the book and in making them sympathetic. It's hard to write from the point of view of something that's starving all the time. Keep watching this space, though, because Taxxons do play a major role in one of the future books, and it's the closest thing we probably get. A book that is just 130 pages of the word FOOD over and over again would be a very bold choice though.
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# ? Jun 6, 2021 23:31 |
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I love that the Arn could surely make their ear canals too small for Yeerks to fit inside or put spikes in them or something but their top solution is adding a self destruct button.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 00:46 |
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Pwnstar posted:I love that the Arn could surely make their ear canals too small for Yeerks to fit inside or put spikes in them or something but their top solution is adding a self destruct button. fascist problems call for neolib solutions... what could go wrong
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 01:24 |
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Yeah that's a good point. I think in this one they don't see it as that big of a deal. By the Andalite Chronicles Elfangor mentions that they're thinking about increasing the birth rate but he doesn't think it's that dire yet, so the higher ups are at least moderately worried but the population at large isn't yet. By the time of the Animorphs books I think they must realize it's getting pretty dangerous, the Leeran planet was a desperate battle and they've lost a dome ship which is probably the equivalent of the US losing an aircraft carrier. I'd also assume there's a lot of other fronts by the '90s that we don't know about, since losing a Dome ship and their great hero Elfangor on the same day - plus the Earth invasion being under the command of a visser who is both their third-highest-ranking officer and also, by his existence, such a blow to Andalite morale that they call him the Abomination - hasn't yet merited a response from them. nine-gear crow posted:A book that is just 130 pages of the word FOOD over and over again would be a very bold choice though.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 01:33 |
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Chapter 29 Esplin 9466 quote:“We have multiple contacts, Sub-Visser Twelve.” First, RIP Akdor, leader of the Yeerk rebellion. He'll be in our thoughts. So, even though the Yeerks are taking two to one losses here, which is obviously bad for them, it's still showing them that the Andalites can be beaten in a standup fight. The Yeerks still have this fear of Andalites as naturally superior, and every time they win, it gives them confidence that they CAN win. Chapter 30 Dak Hamee quote:We were not saved by the Andalites. Instead the war simply intensified. The Andalite main fleet was on its way. But it would not arrive for a year. So, this entire war started because the Andalites underestimated the Yeerks. Seerow didn't think the Yeerks could be devious, and the Andalites guarding the ships on the Yeerk homeworld didn't think a bunch of Yeerks in Gedds could be a threat. Now they're doing it again to the Hork-Bajir.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 04:27 |
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quote:I heard the title and swelled with pleasure. I had been newly promoted. Up from Sub-Visser Seventeen, my first command rank. It was a jump of five places! Sub-Vissers Sixteen and Fourteen had been promoted. Sub-Visser Thirteen had been killed in battle against Hork-Bajir rebels. Sub-Visser Fifteen was being executed for incompetence and cowardice. This is a maddeningly confusing system of military ranks
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 04:40 |
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Maybe it's not a good idea for the Yeerks to have all their commanders in a literally linear numbered hierarchy so that the Mirror Chekov saying of "If you die, we all go up in rank." is true. Dak Hamee's increasing "I'm goddamn tired of all of you jackasses" vibes throughout the book are remarkable.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 04:42 |
A jump of five* places! *two
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 05:07 |
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I said it before but the Andalites definitely have some major Napoleonic-era Royal Navy vibes. Except of course that they are far, far less competent. I am Orbry-Matturin-Ofserprise, a captain in the Andalite war fleet
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 05:37 |
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Epicurius posted:First, RIP Akdor, leader of the Yeerk rebellion. He'll be in our thoughts. I've always appreciated that off-hand line about "Oh yeah, he just died." It's a nice little moment of verisimilitude about how rebellions, revolutions, and wars tend to go sometimes. In any other story, the guy who started the whole rebellion would have been the main villain of it, but here? He's just some chump who takes a stray bullet fired from one of his own weapons that fell into the hands of the people fighting back against him. And then he's forgotten by everyone involved in his whole movement. Seerow is remembered and revered by the Yeerks, Akdor is erased from history. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Jun 7, 2021 |
# ? Jun 7, 2021 06:34 |
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freebooter posted:This is a maddeningly confusing system of military ranks It's actually not entirely unprecedented. During the 18th and 19th centuries, the Royal Navy's system of promotion from Captain to Admiral was based entirely on seniority, with a literal list of where each officer was in line. This meant that capable officers could languish for years, if not decades while waiting for a spot to open up, particularly as less-capable officers kept hanging around so they could secure Admiral's pay. Eventually the Royal Navy created a new Admiral rank where they could shove less-competent officers so they could get around to promoting those with actual merit, and eventually scrapped the system entirely.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 18:15 |
Is that Rear Admiral? Because yeah, wow, that's a direct parallel to sub-Visser.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 21:01 |
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Is that Rear Admiral? Because yeah, wow, that's a direct parallel to sub-Visser. Rear admiral has existed a lot longer. I think Ace is referring to "rear admiral without squadron," or "yellow admiral," which was essentially, "you're in the way, so, fine, we'll cut you a deal: we'll make you an admiral so you get an admiral's pension, on the condition that you immediately resign and start collecting it."
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 21:20 |
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# ? May 23, 2024 09:35 |
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It's actually not entirely unprecedented. During the 18th and 19th centuries, the Royal Navy's system of promotion from Captain to Admiral was based entirely on seniority, with a literal list of where each officer was in line. This meant that capable officers could languish for years, if not decades while waiting for a spot to open up, particularly as less-capable officers kept hanging around so they could secure Admiral's pay. Eventually the Royal Navy created a new Admiral rank where they could shove less-competent officers so they could get around to promoting those with actual merit, and eventually scrapped the system entirely. But those men had names and the ranks were used in conjunction with them. The Yeerks have names but don't appear to use them once they're ranked; nobody ever refers to him as anything other than Visser Three. And in a time of war like this where people are getting killed and executed and promoted all over the joint, it would get real confusing real fast as to who was who when you say "orders from sub-visser 12" or whatever. Also I was thinking about how Akdor was killed and how we haven't heard anything about the Council of Thirteen other than Seerow at the start saying they couldn't have known; maybe they did know but they don't seem to be present aboard the exiled fleet, which I think supports the theory that the Yeerk homeworld has been liberated sometime after the Hork Bajir war but before the time of the Animorphs. Since (minor spoilers) we learn in Visser Chronicles at least that the Council is a very active part of the interstellar empire by the modern day.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 00:40 |