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I think management games are ongoing and iterative, while puzzle games tend to be about finding the solution and moving on to the next puzzle. Having said that, I don't think we need a separate thread.
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Jun 6, 2021 01:41
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PerniciousKnid posted:I think management games are ongoing and iterative, while puzzle games tend to be about finding the solution and moving on to the next puzzle. My primary reason for wanting two separate threads is because when I think to myself "I enjoyed Baba Is You and want to see what other cool puzzle games goons are talking about" I don't think management games. There's some overlap sure but A Snowman Is Hard To Build doesn't belong in this thread, much as Rimworld wouldn't belong in a puzzle game thread.
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Jun 6, 2021 01:52
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Look Steam says Counterstrike counts as a strategy game and who am I to question it
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Jun 6, 2021 02:01
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PerniciousKnid posted:I think management games are ongoing and iterative, while puzzle games tend to be about finding the solution and moving on to the next puzzle. Oh well. I made a puzzle thread anyway. If people like it, they'll use it. If they don't, it'll slide into the thread graveyard abyss, and that's okay too. 
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Jun 6, 2021 02:27
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Slipways is good because you can unlock a technology that lets you tug planets around...
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Jun 6, 2021 02:33
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Man, Going Medieval is really scratching an itch and I'm really having a great time with it despite the pretty limited amount of content. It's great having the ability to keep things tidy by digging basements underneath your crafting buildings to store resources they need. It is starting to chug though now that I have a decently large base with more being built underground. I'm thinking about the possibility of having an entirely underground base and really the only thing preventing me from doing it is the kind of lovely AI. You need support beams for large buildings to make sure it doesn't collapse (think kinda like Valheim construction rules) but it won't tell you if you're about to demolish a load bearing wall so digging multiple levels underground gets tricky. Game rules. This is like Dyson Sphere level of baseline good for an early access title and just thinking about the possibilities for it moving forward is really exciting.
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Jun 6, 2021 03:19
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Idk steam served me aSnooze Cruise posted:Slipways is good because you can unlock a technology that lets you tug planets around... I believe tug, tuggin, and all things tugged, are discussed in GBS tbqh OP
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Jun 6, 2021 04:00
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explosivo posted:Man, Going Medieval is really scratching an itch and I'm really having a great time with it despite the pretty limited amount of content. It's great having the ability to keep things tidy by digging basements underneath your crafting buildings to store resources they need. It is starting to chug though now that I have a decently large base with more being built underground. I'm thinking about the possibility of having an entirely underground base and really the only thing preventing me from doing it is the kind of lovely AI. You need support beams for large buildings to make sure it doesn't collapse (think kinda like Valheim construction rules) but it won't tell you if you're about to demolish a load bearing wall so digging multiple levels underground gets tricky. I really want to like this game, but I'm getting Clockwork Empires vibes.
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Jun 6, 2021 04:01
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I'm trying to split hairs about management vs puzzle in my head and I'm coming to the strange conclusion that Anno 1800 is management because it has soft, multi direction, multisolution problem solving especially by the time you have DLC while Factorio is a puzzle game because any one thing is always made the same way +- upgrades. Don't @ me, I know Factorio can get soft in how you manage belts vs robots vs trains and Anno can be played as much as Factorio in a spreadsheet for the one correct solution.
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Jun 6, 2021 04:53
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Grevlek posted:I really want to like this game, but I'm getting Clockwork Empires vibes. It really looks like they just wanted to copy rimworld at first, with the noable addition of z-levels. Research also goes faster, which is very nice because the characters are all secretly DF dwarves and you can’t make alcohol till you research it. But I really like that you create a library to house all your research pretty organically. Even if they stopped working on it now it’s a much better game than Clockwork Empires is. God, what a mess Clockwork Empires was.
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Jun 6, 2021 05:23
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Snooze Cruise posted:Slipways is good because you can unlock a technology that lets you tug planets around... Finally, a way for your mother to visit you this time!
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Jun 6, 2021 07:35
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Puzzle games are where you click buttons in the right order in a systematic way to win the gamestate. Management games are where you click buttons in the right order in a systematic way to convince yourself you are winning. I guess the presence of a win screen or regular wiping of the game slate. Like The Witness is puzzle as all hell, game tells me when when I did the puzzle right by making a happy sound and giving me more puzzles. Stellaris is less so, like it'll eventually lead me to a win screen but gently caress if I know what any of the cascading decisions caused what to where. Ceasar 3 is like an in between point where the moves are so limited and proscribed it could be a puzzle game. Man, watching Ceasar 3 is like watching a clock being built or a quilt being sewn, definitely a management game tho.
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Jun 6, 2021 08:40
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I would say that plenty of management game have puzzle elements but most puzzle games don’t have management elements.
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Jun 6, 2021 09:23
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Puzzle Pirates is a puzzle game where your skill in puzzling directly contributes to a crew wide puzzle being played by the captain. It is a puzzle game that becomes a management game.
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Jun 6, 2021 09:38
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KirbyKhan posted:Puzzle Pirates is a puzzle game where your skill in puzzling directly contributes to a crew wide puzzle being played by the captain. It is a puzzle game that becomes a management game. lol anyone remember the Salty Mouthfuls?
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Jun 6, 2021 10:06
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Chakan posted:Even if they stopped working on it now it’s a much better game than Clockwork Empires is. God, what a mess Clockwork Empires was.
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Jun 6, 2021 10:16
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Poil posted:Clockwork Empires had so much promise. But what I remember the most are trying to find the one starting build which worked, the fishmen raids and the colonists just endlessly rearranging stockpiles. iirc the big issue with that game is they tried to build their own engine as opposed to using one of the main ones. it killed the company, which sucks because dungeons of dredmore was cool, and the guy posted on SA and seemed like a nice dude i'm wary of all the colony builders after CE. After spending a few hours with Going Medieval, I can't say it's a ton more complete than CE in my opinion.
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Jun 6, 2021 10:20
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Grevlek posted:lol anyone remember the Salty Mouthfuls? Most definitely. That was a lot of fun.
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Jun 6, 2021 13:43
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 I'm digging out some underground homes for my colonists and kind of a nice detail I noticed, wood beams will automatically split into two if you put a block in the middle of it. The only way in here is through two sets of reinforced doors and I just evaded a raid by locking the doors and waiting it out. I think if a block doesn't have a support within three blocks of it, it collapses. So putting beams every three or so blocks takes care of it. Game rules. Edit: I actually want to see how far I could take this but my colonists are starting to bug out and I'm worried they're all going to die before I can find out. I want my whole base on bedrock underground and a maze of traps and pointy things above ground. explosivo fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 18:13
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So we've got a lot of "build a 'factory' in the Factorio vein" where it's spaghetti tangles of belts and assemblers and whatnot, and that's all cool, but variety is the spice of life - what's solid for games about actually managing a factory? I'm aware Automation exists but from everything I hear the big draw is "custom cars for beam.NG" instead of any actual management in its own right. Or anything in that vein. Less interested in "manage an office" (I can just deal with IRL work for that), more interested in the manufacturing/technical side of work for that sort of thing. (I'm having mental flashbacks again to the absolutely terrible Gadget Tycoon as a really poor quality example.)
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Jun 6, 2021 21:33
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SkyeAuroline posted:So we've got a lot of "build a 'factory' in the Factorio vein" where it's spaghetti tangles of belts and assemblers and whatnot, and that's all cool, but variety is the spice of life - what's solid for games about actually managing a factory? I'm aware Automation exists but from everything I hear the big draw is "custom cars for beam.NG" instead of any actual management in its own right. Production Line.
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Jun 6, 2021 22:10
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SkyeAuroline posted:So we've got a lot of "build a 'factory' in the Factorio vein" where it's spaghetti tangles of belts and assemblers and whatnot, and that's all cool, but variety is the spice of life - what's solid for games about actually managing a factory? I'm aware Automation exists but from everything I hear the big draw is "custom cars for beam.NG" instead of any actual management in its own right. How would you want this game to work? Would you want like a wireframe, where you are in the thick designing a widget, or overseeing a company, and making like 4 or 5 things and improving them by adding or removing capital assets?
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Jun 6, 2021 23:37
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Grevlek posted:How would you want this game to work? Would you want like a wireframe, where you are in the thick designing a widget, or overseeing a company, and making like 4 or 5 things and improving them by adding or removing capital assets? The latter is more what I was aiming for, though the former is potentially interesting too.
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Jun 7, 2021 00:04
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SkyeAuroline posted:The latter is more what I was aiming for, though the former is potentially interesting too. So you mention you don't want to manage an office. Would you mind expanding on that? Do you mean you don't want to assign square footage of stuff like two point hospital? Edit - more or less like capitalism 2 ? Grevlek fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 00:16
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Grevlek posted:So you mention you don't want to manage an office. Would you mind expanding on that? Mostly that I didn't want any of the endless pile of software dev games that are out there. I didn't play TPH but I did play and enjoy Theme Hospital greatly back in the day - TPH came out while I was on a buying freeze and just never got around to it. Building and assigning out space, even fitting it out, works great for me. I haven't personally played Capitalism 2 (or Lab) but I was under the impression they're more "high scale"? Managing a ton of widespread locations without ever looking into any of them?
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Jun 7, 2021 00:23
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SkyeAuroline posted:Mostly that I didn't want any of the endless pile of software dev games that are out there. I didn't play TPH but I did play and enjoy Theme Hospital greatly back in the day - TPH came out while I was on a buying freeze and just never got around to it. Building and assigning out space, even fitting it out, works great for me. I haven't personally played Capitalism 2 (or Lab) but I was under the impression they're more "high scale"? Managing a ton of widespread locations without ever looking into any of them? I got burned on a software dev game recently so I feel that. Capitalism 2 is at a level higher than assigning office space, but you do get to control a production line from extraction and research to sale for any of like 60 things. I'm not sure about a game exactly like you are talking about but I'd probably be interested in it
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Jun 7, 2021 00:28
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I'm a fan of Big Pharma when I get the factory itch and/or want a game to go well with watching TV. https://store.steampowered.com/app/344850/Big_Pharma/
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Jun 7, 2021 00:38
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KirbyKhan posted:Puzzle games are where you click buttons in the right order in a systematic way to win the gamestate. Management games are where you click buttons in the right order in a systematic way to convince yourself you are winning. I guess the presence of a win screen or regular wiping of the game slate. Winning in a management games is when number is going up SkyeAuroline posted:So we've got a lot of "build a 'factory' in the Factorio vein" where it's spaghetti tangles of belts and assemblers and whatnot, and that's all cool, but variety is the spice of life - what's solid for games about actually managing a factory? I'm aware Automation exists but from everything I hear the big draw is "custom cars for beam.NG" instead of any actual management in its own right. Mayveena posted:Production Line. This is probably the closest you're going to get.
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Jun 7, 2021 02:06
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Frostpunk is a puzzle game disguised as a management game.
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Jun 7, 2021 02:40
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The good part of Big Pharma is more office and economics than factory running. Production line is a pretty good factory manager. There's also Little Big Workshop and Good Company. Production Line's good parts are again office and economics/business development again being Big Pharma alumni but the factory building part matters more this time. Little Big Workshop is where you take random contracts and run them through undefined flow through production cells. It's a cool bit of lean management via sharing production Line's across multiple contracts at once. Good Company is like LBW but kind of opposite. It's lean through exacting assignment of logistics and production steps to make only a few things at a time. There is some business development but it's probably the weakest of the three about that even vs the random contracts you get in LBW.
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Jun 7, 2021 02:42
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lunar detritus posted:Frostpunk is a puzzle game disguised as a management game. Agreed, and I think there are a lot of those. In general, I see a puzzle game as one where there is a single solution, or a single best solution; and a management game is one where there are lots of options and alternatives, and you're balancing pros and cons as you make choices to slowly get towards an objective. Frostpunk absolutely has best paths and specific orders for specific scenarios, so I'm with you that it's more of a puzzle game than a management game.
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Jun 7, 2021 04:46
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 Lol gently caress's sake the trebuchets in Going Medieval can target and destroy things underground. I moved all my colonists into their nice new climate controlled homes deep underground and their rooms still got destroyed from trebuchet fire. Building underground is a lot of fun though and I imagine once that gets patched out this will be a really viable strategy to survive raids. I think with this new discovery of the bunker busting trebuchets I'm going to actually put this down for now, maybe start another colony on Rimworld. This game has a ton of potential though and I can't wait to see how it develops.
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Jun 7, 2021 05:14
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drat, how are they doing that? Are the projectiles flying fast enough that they punch through the wood/soil/rock above and crash into the bunker?
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Jun 7, 2021 05:34
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Shaped stones Just wait till the stealth catapults show up
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Jun 7, 2021 05:43
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explosivo posted:
Why two beds per room? That gets you the 'slept in a shared room' bonus, but you get the same bonus if it's just a big dormitory. I think a private room gets an additional bonus, but what's the advantage to a semi-private room?
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Jun 7, 2021 06:19
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skeleton warrior posted:Agreed, and I think there are a lot of those. KirbyKhan posted:Puzzle games are where you click buttons in the right order in a systematic way to win the gamestate. Management games are where you click buttons in the right order in a systematic way to convince yourself you are winning. I guess the presence of a win screen or regular wiping of the game slate. See, these definitions would make Slipways a management game. There's way too much variance in the choices you can make for there to be any reasonable systematic "best answer". I think a big part of it is that you don't have all the information. Without specific techs, you have to make leaps of faith from time to time, then scramble to patch the holes when, whoops, turns out there isn't a manpower-producing planet in range after all. Maybe you should grab that tech that lets you build freeform habitats to compensate? But then you won't be able to afford slip relays... The thing is, it definitely feels like a puzzle game rather than a management game. Dunno why the feel and every reasonable definition I've seen are at odds, though.
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Jun 7, 2021 07:33
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From a personal perspective, I dislike puzzle games and love management games precisely because of the feeling they aren't about finding one (or two) right solutions but instead are about adapting to the situation with the available tools (which includes creating new tools) to create a decent enough ad-hoc solution. And so far I do love Slipways 
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Jun 7, 2021 08:11
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Slipways has that feel because you what you are interacting with act like puzzle pieces. I don't really see the difference between management and puzzles as tied to solutions like the other defintions given. I think its about feel. A puzzle is like a snapshot of logic with pieces you interact with to figure out. This might seem like a weird thing to say since you have stuff like tetris which is very much not a singular shot, but that is about dealing with multiple snapshots in a row really. Management has sequential feel. The pieces you interact with are ongoing. You are building and adapting. Snooze Cruise fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 08:24
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explosivo posted:
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Jun 7, 2021 09:41
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I mean the game is early access as gently caress and the enemy system is barely implemented as it is so I have to imagine the way it works now is placeholder behavior.
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Jun 7, 2021 10:26
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