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busalover posted:The only MMO where I didn't notice any chudd-iness going on, was FFXIV. I think it's just plain "too gay" in its visual style and presentation. Do you, as a chud, really wanna play with cat people dudes wearing eyeliner and makeup? Don't think so. I even tried to make a hyper masculine character (bald-headed highlander hyur pugilist) and by the time you're out of the newbie zones, all the quest rewards were leather bondage. One of them had leopard print on it and I just about fell over laughing.
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Jun 6, 2021 21:34
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Endorph posted:people dont get banned from ff14 for using parses? They ban toxic people. They don't ban parses. Some toxic people use parsers.
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Jun 7, 2021 00:40
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i've never seen a chud in FFXIV. i saw one guy calling people gay in gangos in /yell and he was immediately shouted down by people with "yes, we are, and we're fabulous" and it's true because we are.
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Jun 7, 2021 01:30
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punk rebel ecks posted:While I agree that Final Fantasy XIV has the least toxic community I've encountered, I feel that it isn't a fair comparison. I would argue that the community is a direct result of many intentional choices by FF14 designers. The game is constantly teaching players that being nice is something that is recognized and rewarded. Commendations, bonuses for grouping with players who are doing content for the first time, the mentorship and dungeon roulette systems, FATEs being cooperative: all of these systems have explicit incentives to be helpful. Compare FF14 to something like WoW's Mythic+ where you are actively punished if you ever accidentally play with new/bad players (losing a key level if you happen to group with someone who isn't good enough) and it's no surprise that FF14 has a good community. (And of course, run by a company who will pay for GMs to get rid of toxic people.)
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Jun 7, 2021 01:44
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Mentors are the worst players ever and novice network chat is full of the dumbest idiots known to man though, and I’m not talking about the novices
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Jun 7, 2021 02:52
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A few months ago when I reactivated my ff14 account the newbie network was full of people erping.
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Jun 7, 2021 02:53
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It's funny that FF11 has a much better thought out newbie help channel because you have to do something other than just "get some stuff to 80 and a little more, I guess"
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Jun 7, 2021 03:16
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Zil posted:A few months ago when I reactivated my ff14 account the newbie network was full of people erping. that this is still better than Barrens says so drat much about WoW
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Jun 7, 2021 04:13
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What's the best WoW server for ERPing, and how/why did it become that way historically?
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Jun 7, 2021 05:35
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Biowarfare posted:What's the best WoW server for ERPing, and how/why did it become that way historically? I don't know about best but Moonguard is certainly the most infamous. I have no idea other than it being an rp-server.
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Jun 7, 2021 06:19
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Moon Guard, and there's no real story there. It's the most active RP server, and it's alliance-biased and Alliance has the more conventionally attractive races. It just kind of happened to play out that way so it became an ERP hub and then it gained the joke status of being an ERP hub so more people went there to ERP.
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Jun 7, 2021 09:50
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Third World Reagan posted:They ban toxic people. they ban for third party tools including parses if you make it really obvious you're using them and they happen to see the evidence. they just don't know or care if you don't like, confess in game by harassing someone for grey parsing or post screenshots of ACT somewhere a GM happens to be paying attention.
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Jun 7, 2021 10:16
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Third World Reagan posted:They ban toxic people. I don't understand the context here - is it parsing in a grammatical sense?
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Jun 7, 2021 10:37
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THE BAR posted:I don't understand the context here - is it parsing in a grammatical sense? parsing just refers to keeping track of the amount of damage/healing that each party member contributes to a fight. FFXIV doesn't have add-on support like wow does, so any tools like a dps meter are unauthorized third-party tools, prohibited by the EULA. in practice almost everyone uses one anyways.
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Jun 7, 2021 10:49
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Frida Call Me posted:parsing just refers to keeping track of the amount of damage/healing that each party member contributes to a fight. FFXIV doesn't have add-on support like wow does, so any tools like a dps meter are unauthorized third-party tools, prohibited by the EULA. in practice almost everyone uses one anyways. Thanks. I can understand not wanting to have people lord their bigger numbers over others, but sometimes it's nice to have a tool for self improvement.
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Jun 7, 2021 11:08
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THE BAR posted:Thanks. I can understand not wanting to have people lord their bigger numbers over others, but sometimes it's nice to have a tool for self improvement. Yeah, and that's what most normal people do and there's no problem with that - a blind eye is turned and all. But some losers can't help themselves but feel superiority because they're doing more damage in Haukke Manor.
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Jun 7, 2021 11:11
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cyrn posted:I would argue that the community is a direct result of many intentional choices by FF14 designers. The game is constantly teaching players that being nice is something that is recognized and rewarded. Commendations, bonuses for grouping with players who are doing content for the first time, the mentorship and dungeon roulette systems, FATEs being cooperative: all of these systems have explicit incentives to be helpful. The funny part is from interviews you get the sense that Yoshi-P (the guy most responsible for FFXIV) would rather be playing Ultima Online or WoW given the choice: https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fantasy-xiv/ffxiv-yoshi-p-interview-wow But honestly I think the GMs are the biggest part, you can put all the soft incentives that you want into a game to encourage people to be nice, but if you can't boot the shitheads dropping slurs out, eventually they take over.
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Jun 7, 2021 12:25
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Chomposaur posted:https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fantasy-xiv/ffxiv-yoshi-p-interview-wow That's a really interesting interview. He's echoing the same things I have read on here and other MMO forums now for 10 years. I was too young to play UO, but I remember hearing stories about it from my SWG friends.
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Jun 7, 2021 13:34
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I think that’s an important thing about MMOs: we have more information about everything conceivable within the game and less time to dedicate to anything specifically, so you really can’t recreate a situation where the player base isn’t supposed to know something, and you also can’t recreate a situation where spending a lot of time playing a single game is cool and normal. It becomes a system that rewards players for optimizing their game time and disengaging from the community and immersion by just looking up what to do and how to do it. But the reason MMOs were so good was because the community and immersion were necessary elements to “beating” the game, and you needed to work together. Overcoming a shared struggle together is hugely important for MMOs. It seems the best you can realistically hope for is engaging gameplay and good art/story/setting, but that begs the question of why make an MMO when you could accomplish those objectives better with a single player game. Cosmetics is kind of a reason for multiplayer and is hotly capitalized upon. PvP kinda. But mostly, it’s just “get levels and loot, usually alone, until you burn out”. “Good MMOs” is a concept too beautiful for this world, RIP
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Jun 7, 2021 15:34
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Anyways how’s SOLO
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Jun 7, 2021 15:44
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Chomposaur posted:The funny part is from interviews you get the sense that Yoshi-P (the guy most responsible for FFXIV) would rather be playing Ultima Online or WoW given the choice: https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fantasy-xiv/ffxiv-yoshi-p-interview-wow Good interview.
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Jun 7, 2021 17:30
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Cardboard Fox posted:That's a really interesting interview. He's echoing the same things I have read on here and other MMO forums now for 10 years. It's interesting that the term "time-to-win" comes up, I haven't heard that used before. It seems so obvious, of course you are more likely to win if you spend time on the game and get better at it. But they really don't mean that for MMOs, since there is a relatively low skill ceiling mechanically, rather the time-to-win is just grinding for higher number output for the same mechanical actions. Personally I still think that the best "work to win" system for mmos would be guaranteed drop legendary items from high difficulty events, but the issue there becomes that the poopsockers burn through the content in 30 days and then the game gets review bombed.
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Jun 7, 2021 17:33
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Cardboard Fox posted:That's a really interesting interview. He's echoing the same things I have read on here and other MMO forums now for 10 years. UO loving ruled. My fondest memories of MMOs are going to be from UO and DAoC. It'd be impossible to capture that feeling again I think since everyone data-mines the hell out of everything now though. e: Left this open too long I guess! jokes posted:Anyways how’s SOLO It's great! It's a lot of fun.
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Jun 7, 2021 18:04
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dreffen posted:UO loving ruled. My fondest memories of MMOs are going to be from UO and DAoC. I think data mining will ruin any attempt to recreate something like original Everquest or UO. A lot of what made the game great was random exploring and finding out things from word of mouth. It took a long time to figure out quest lines and you found so many random items without a clue to their purpose. I remember my first days trying to start a barbarian and being lost trying to find my corpse in Everfrost Peaks or being lost in the woods trying to travel between cities in UO because I had to flee from a PK.
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Jun 7, 2021 19:19
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Nunes posted:I think data mining will ruin any attempt to recreate something like original Everquest or UO. A lot of what made the game great was random exploring and finding out things from word of mouth. It took a long time to figure out quest lines and you found so many random items without a clue to their purpose. I remember my first days trying to start a barbarian and being lost trying to find my corpse in Everfrost Peaks or being lost in the woods trying to travel between cities in UO because I had to flee from a PK. I think some teams have figured out small ways to recapture that feeling, but any larger initiatives will fall apart immediately. Example that immediately comes to mind is Mythic raiding in WoW usually having a 'secret' phase on the final boss that no one has seen or datamined. I don't think there'd be any way to do that for an entire raid since your choice is basically 'launch it untested' at that point, but I like when games come up with small ways to try to recapture that sense of discovery and community.
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Jun 7, 2021 19:40
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I think what many MMO fans want is a major MMO to pull a BOTW or Super Mario Odyssey. Essentially not be an exact recreation of games of times of old but recreating the general "feeling" those games have by following their general philosophy. BOTW brought back the feeling and philosophy of exploration and discovery that gradually went missing from the series. Super Mario Odyssey brought back the whole playground and experimentation aspects found in Super Mario 64. MMO fans seem to want the sense of adventure and camaraderie from Ultima Online and EverQuest.
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Jun 7, 2021 19:52
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punk rebel ecks posted:MMO fans seem to want the sense of adventure and camaraderie from Ultima Online and EverQuest. Really good post - I get really nostalgic for 2004-2007 era FFXI but objectively, the gameplay was gently caress awful, and playing too similarly to FFXI is a big part of what caused FFXIV 1.0 to be such a disaster. That said, the moments I really miss are banging my head on the CoP boss fights with my static, or not giving up until every last one of us that could equip it had Byakko's Haidate, holding claim on Ullikummi and kiting his rear end around for an hour until my friends showed up to actually kill him so we could get Byakko's spawn item while a bunch of hungry gamers watch jealously. If a game could capture that while actually having good combat and mechanics and not being an insane time sink it'd probably be an all-time great, but I guess that's easier said than done.
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Jun 7, 2021 20:14
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Let me tell you about age of wushu, datamining, and how everything was still a mystery due to poor translation and someone copy pasting something wrong in translation files.
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Jun 7, 2021 20:37
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punk rebel ecks posted:MMO fans seem to want the sense of adventure and camaraderie from Ultima Online and EverQuest. A lot of this came about from things like codependent classes that had to group to advance, long travel times, and corpse runs forcing people to actually help one another, which would be wholly unpalatable to the current market. Even Pantheon saw how the wind was blowing and has been steadily backpedaling from its early days of trying to be an EQ successor.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:05
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jokes posted:Anyways how’s SOLO Game play seems fun, there's a ton of systems and whatever to mess around with, translation is pretty bad and they promise to fix it but it's really bad and launch is really soon
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Jun 7, 2021 23:23
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Maybe they can release a good MMO that has constantly changing systems that makes data mining useless? poo poo, people already know the most optimal thing to do in WoW before the content is even released.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:39
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Good Dumplings posted:that this is still better than Barrens says so drat much about WoW barrens chat owns and so does pking and griefing 
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Jun 8, 2021 01:04
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Sachant posted:A lot of this came about from things like codependent classes that had to group to advance, long travel times, and corpse runs forcing people to actually help one another, which would be wholly unpalatable to the current market. Even Pantheon saw how the wind was blowing and has been steadily backpedaling from its early days of trying to be an EQ successor. This is why I listed BOTW and Super Mario Odyssey. Games that didn't recreate the games of yore 1:1, but clearly reimagined them for a modern era. For example, the original Legend of Zelda, as well as many Zelda-likes from that era, were very cryptic. It was difficult to know exactly what to do or where to go. BOTW literally marks where you have to go on the map. The issue is HOW you get there. You can't just take a bee-line because there are mountains, swamps, etc. in the way, but you do know where you need to go. And in terms of what to do, well it gives plenty of context clues to make things obvious. And while there is fast travel, you have to discover it first and even then it leads you to a general area rather than the exact place where you want to go. It's convenient enough that trekking from destination to destination is not a slog, but not too convenient to the point where it takes away the sense of a journey.
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Jun 8, 2021 01:13
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dreffen posted:UO loving ruled. My fondest memories of MMOs are going to be from UO and DAoC. Another thing that made UO so special that I've read before, and agree with as a hardcore UO player for many years, is that since it was the only game in town you had an actual real-life mix of sheep and wolves. There was no way to segregate yourselves, so the emergent gameplay mechanics actually had a chance to grow and evolve on their own. You had a real living, breathing, DIVERSE ecosystem. People actually fishes on the banks of the brit bank and sold their fish to adventurers. Unsavory rapscallions would actually buy them and poison them and distribute them at actual plays people were producing in the brit theatre. People sparred in the Jhelom pits. The first time you went to moonglow and explored the teleporters was a trip. When t2a came out and you learned to recdu recsu was breathtaking. People would group up to farm earth eles in shame. When I was a little kid I was in a guild and a woman named stessa and her husband miner would gather all us little noobies up at their house, give us nightsite potions, and gate us to i think shame or maybe deciet water ele room where we would have fun fighting them. if a red came in it was pandemonium and many little noobies would die. a few minutes later a gate would open and stessa would out and usher us back to the house, res us, give us a sword and some non gm ringmail and send us on our way like kids going off the school. in a modern MMO there is no way stessa would be on the same server as the legendary pkers of yore who hunted us to the ends of the earth. Years later the IPY, the greatest freeshard of them all opened up and all the great guilds and great players of the game came together for one last ultimate frag fest, and, for a brief moment, it was the greatest gaming experience of all time.
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Jun 8, 2021 01:23
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Nunes posted:I think data mining will ruin any attempt to recreate something like original Everquest or UO. A lot of what made the game great was random exploring and finding out things from word of mouth. It took a long time to figure out quest lines and you found so many random items without a clue to their purpose. I remember my first days trying to start a barbarian and being lost trying to find my corpse in Everfrost Peaks or being lost in the woods trying to travel between cities in UO because I had to flee from a PK. Oh yeah 100%. Getting lost the first dozen times in Myrkwood Forest when during the dark-rear end night, or getting lost in Everfrost Peaks in the middle of a corpse run is magic that just isn't there anymore. Or at least won't be in the same ways it used to be. I had to go hunting for it but Yoshi-P has talked a little bit about his love for UO in several places, but magical (and sometimes frustrating) moments like this are the ones that will always stick with you. quote:After Ultima Online started service in Japan, Yoshida started playing and became a guild master. Set on purchasing a guild house, he toiled for 2 weeks to gather 4,000 ingots – worth roughly 64,000 gold – to sell for the necessary money. Upon entering town, he was almost immediately scammed by a player who utilized a sleight of hand trick to trick him into selling all the ingots for a mere 6 gold. Smythe posted:Another thing that made UO so special that I've read before, and agree with as a hardcore UO player for many years, is that since it was the only game in town you had an actual real-life mix of sheep and wolves. There was no way to segregate yourselves, so the emergent gameplay mechanics actually had a chance to grow and evolve on their own. You had a real living, breathing, DIVERSE ecosystem. People actually fishes on the banks of the brit bank and sold their fish to adventurers. Unsavory rapscallions would actually buy them and poison them and distribute them at actual plays people were producing in the brit theatre. People sparred in the Jhelom pits. The first time you went to moonglow and explored the teleporters was a trip. When t2a came out and you learned to recdu recsu was breathtaking. e: YES. Yeah, that is the exact stuff I think about. I really wish to relive those days in a lot of ways even though it just can't be done. I met the person who would later end up being my step-dad in the same dungeon. dreffen fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 01:23
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Ultima Online sounds wild.
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Jun 8, 2021 04:15
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I get dwarf fortress/EVE vibes from it, having never played it. I hear about these rich stories from old games and I just have to imagine the gameplay/UI was just absolute dogshit.
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Jun 8, 2021 05:04
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Oh yeah the UO UI was completely rear end. I remember we all bought third-party UI addons, including a map, in order to make it more functional.
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Jun 8, 2021 05:15
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bought?
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Jun 8, 2021 05:26
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Yep. UOAssist looks like it still costs $15 for a lifetime ownership. The map program looks free now with a patreon but I think it used to cost money.
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Jun 8, 2021 05:36
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