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Cup Runneth Over posted:What alignment is arguing about alignments? Edit: God, this thread is fourteen years old. SuperKlaus posted:Well, guys, what say we take Mr. Vanderhuge's suggestion and find out if Order of the Stick can support an ongoing thread or if it's best left as something occasionally discussed in the Webcomics Thread or BSS Derailed? girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 09:18
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Cup Runneth Over posted:What alignment is arguing about alignments? Famously chaotic neutral
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Jun 8, 2021 11:31
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girl dick energy posted:According to the ooooold thread title, Awful Stupid. Ive never actually read the first post and of course its an alignment argument
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Jun 8, 2021 11:43
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Taciturn Tactician posted:even though they seem to not give a single poo poo about you dragging around a chaotic evil goblin party member or a neutral evil undead murderer. This is the number one weirdest thing in Kingmaker for me. Why the gently caress are Valerie, Linzi, Tristan, Ekundayo, and Octavia (not to mention all your NPC buddies) just totally cool with hanging out with Jaethal, an undead abomination mostly known for murdering those closest to her in order to please her Evil goddess? And that's before we even get into the ridiculous poo poo that happens in her sidequest.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:35
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mandatory lesbian posted:Ive never actually read the first post and of course its an alignment argument As it was in the beginning, so it shall be at the end.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:39
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Verus posted:This is the number one weirdest thing in Kingmaker for me. Why the gently caress are Valerie, Linzi, Tristan, Ekundayo, and Octavia (not to mention all your NPC buddies) just totally cool with hanging out with Jaethal, an undead abomination mostly known for murdering those closest to her in order to please her Evil goddess? And that's before we even get into the ridiculous poo poo that happens in her sidequest. valerie is a duty robot who will do anything you ask her and tristian is a spinless little bitch who is horrified at her existence but wont do anything about it
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Jun 8, 2021 13:43
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Valerie flat-out argues in favour of raising an old woman as an intelligent undead at one point simply because she asked you to before dying. She's Stupid Neutral to the extreme and I enjoyed having her around a lot. I just wish her build wasn't awful.
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Jun 8, 2021 14:35
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LukasR23 posted:Valerie flat-out argues in favour of raising an old woman as an intelligent undead at one point simply because she asked you to before dying. idgi, if she asked for it, what's wrong with doing it? Almost seems like a good action, to help an old lady fulfill her dying wish.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:07
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AnoHito posted:idgi, if she asked for it, what's wrong with doing it? Almost seems like a good action, to help an old lady fulfill her dying wish. What was it Redcloak said about the undead, even the very most intelligent of them, being nothing more than bits of gore glued together with negative energy? Dying wish or not, I can't see the creation of a being powered by negative energy to be anything other than an Evil act. Is it not the dying wish of all Liches to become Liches? Does that make fulfilling their request a Good act?
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Jun 8, 2021 15:48
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AnoHito posted:idgi, if she asked for it, what's wrong with doing it? Almost seems like a good action, to help an old lady fulfill her dying wish. It is a general theme that the undead need to consume life to exist. The weakest ones like zombies and skeletons just kind of fall apart eventually, but pretty much all of the others, and especially those that have intellects have a capital-H Hunger. That need to feed on the living or positive energy grows with the strength and the integrity of the undead, to the point that for things like Liches and Night Stalkers, only periodic infusions of mortal souls can sustain them. Bringing someone back as an intelligent undead is bringing an abomination into the world, inflicting a terrible curse upon someone, and likely denying a soul entry into its afterlife. In that context, it's pretty easy to see why the creation of undead is ruled as a Evil act throughout most of DnDs history.
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Jun 8, 2021 16:16
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AnoHito posted:idgi, if she asked for it, what's wrong with doing it? Almost seems like a good action, to help an old lady fulfill her dying wish. Pathfinder intelligent undead are capital-E Evil in the cosmology. The lead writer has taken a very hard stance on that, and while I disagree with how he's written his cosmology it's the stance the game itself takes. Undead souls are automatically corrupt and evil, no questions asked. The only 'Redemption' for an undead involves no longer being an undead. James Jacobs posted:When something's undead, it diverts it. If you think of the souls as a river, when something becomes undead, that's a scoop of water taken out of the river and put into a place far from the river where the water grows stagnant and, without external forces, won't ever join the ocean. (Note: In this metaphor, the ocean is the Great Beyond, and water doesn't evaporate.) An undead is NOT a soul that's moved on, in other words; it's a soul that's become trapped or corrupted before i moved on. Quoted from an AMA he did a few years back on reddit.
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Jun 8, 2021 16:51
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Of course this question depends on the setting. You can have good aligned Undead in Forgotten Realms, there's at least one Lich in the direct service of Mystra as something of a Lore Keeper; plus Elven Baelnorns.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:09
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It depends on the cosmology/nature of undead in the story. It just so happrns the process of making intelligent undead in most stories involves boiling down orphans to get eternal life syrup or being cursed to shameful undeath by the gods.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:18
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I, for one, would wear being cursed to deathlessness by the Gods of most DND pantheons as a badge of honor. Murder those jerks and topple their thrones.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:Of course this question depends on the setting. You can have good aligned Undead in Forgotten Realms, there's at least one Lich in the direct service of Mystra as something of a Lore Keeper; plus Elven Baelnorns. The D&D reasoning, AFAIK, is that most undead are inherently evil because they're once-living beings infused with life-draining negative energy. Baelnorn (and some mummies) are instead powered by life-giving positive energy and therefore are not inherently corrupt. Why the animation of more willing, non-evil undead is not a more common concept, I do not know. Maybe raising someone from the dead is technically positive energy necromancy, and positive undead creatures aren't technically undead, so much as immortal?
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Jun 8, 2021 18:41
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Isn't positive energy necromancy just resurrection?
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Jun 8, 2021 18:46
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Isn't positive energy necromancy just resurrection? I think the big difference is whether its being done via arcane or divine means. A wizard reviving someone from the dead is going to look very different from a cleric doing so.
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Jun 8, 2021 18:54
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Thanks to someone talking about the beginning of this thread, I started reading through it (I think a similar rule to "Don't click on an OOTS link unless you're prepared to read 50+ strips" applies here), and I just got the joke about V and Pompey's names after someone pointed it out. 15 years later. Son of a *bitch*. 
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Jun 8, 2021 18:56
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I prefer the Discworld approach to undead, not all of them are evil but most of them are assholes. Perfect and I can have cool undead NPCs that aren't evil.
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Jun 8, 2021 18:58
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We already live in a world ruled by evil abominations that hide behind the flimsy mask of false personhood as they drain the living of their souls and vitality to satisfy their endless hunger, corrupt the natural environment by their every action and commit every possible atrocity in their bid for world conquest. We just call them "corporations" rather than "undead".
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Jun 8, 2021 19:25
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Isn't positive energy necromancy just resurrection? Yeah that's where I ended up. If you make someone into a baelnorn or positive mummy, you just resurrect them so hard they stop aging and maybe get some supernatural powers on top of that. It works. E: Rogue AI Goddess posted:We already live in a world ruled by evil abominations that hide behind the flimsy mask of false personhood as they drain the living of their souls and vitality to satisfy their endless hunger, corrupt the natural environment by their every action and commit every possible atrocity in their bid for world conquest. We just call them "corporations" rather than "undead". I'm pretty sure there's tons of analyses of vampire stories that point out they're literally just descriptions of aristocracy with a fancy supernatural twist. Corporations are just the modern versions of feudal aristocrats. They're not just comparable to the undead, they're what inspired them. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 19:57
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Ugly John posted:I just got the joke about V and Pompey's names after someone pointed it out. 15 years later. Son of a *bitch*. ...dammit!
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Jun 8, 2021 21:00
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Dracula is a story about the aristocracy. Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter is a story where vampires are the aristocracy. But some classic superstitions and folktales about vampires have them as vengeful spirits or crazy monsters without any of the flair or class. A family starts dying off in a way like they're having the life drained out of them (maybe because they're sick and spreading disease) and it's blamed on a dead relative rising from the dead to take them, and in order to stop the vampire they exhume the corpse and rip out and eat its heart. The actual superstitions that gave birth to monsters are a lot weirder than you'd expect.
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Jun 8, 2021 21:13
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Ugly John posted:I just got the joke about V and Pompey's names after someone pointed it out. 15 years later. Son of a *bitch*. There's a joke?
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Jun 8, 2021 21:19
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Mt. Vesuvius is the volcano that buried the town of Pompeii.
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Jun 8, 2021 21:20
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Oh, duh. For some reason my brain tried going into direction of Pompey the Great and I had no idea how V was supposed to fit into that.
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Jun 8, 2021 21:23
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm pretty sure there's tons of analyses of vampire stories that point out they're literally just descriptions of aristocracy with a fancy supernatural twist. Corporations are just the modern versions of feudal aristocrats. They're not just comparable to the undead, they're what inspired them. Vampire stories often prominently feature aristocratic or romantic elements, but that doesn't really have anything to do with undead. It's just what kinds of stories appealed to people at the time vampire fiction first became popular. The folk vampires that eventually inspired vampire fiction usually lived in the town graveyard, not grand lonely castles. However, it's a lot harder to make a dramatic adventure story based around a panicked mob digging up the graves of people who've died recently to see if any of the corpses haven't decomposed as much as expected.
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Jun 8, 2021 21:52
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Mummies are literally undead royals.
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Jun 8, 2021 23:31
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The first vampire aristocrat story I can think of basically birthed the modern genre (dracula was clearly influenced about) and it was about a sexy seductive lesbian vampire. I cant actually think of an aristocrat vampire prior to that.
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Jun 9, 2021 02:22
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GlyphGryph posted:The first vampire aristocrat story I can think of basically birthed the modern genre (dracula was clearly influenced about) and it was about a sexy seductive lesbian vampire. Vampires were originally filthy disgusting peasant blood suckers. Everything everyone knows about vampires is a purely modern invention.
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Jun 9, 2021 03:00
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A.o.D. posted:Vampires were originally filthy disgusting peasant blood suckers. Everything everyone knows about vampires is a purely modern invention. Well, "modern" but not in the sense that anyone but a history nerd would call modern to be fair. 
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Jun 9, 2021 03:01
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A.o.D. posted:Vampires were originally filthy disgusting peasant blood suckers. Everything everyone knows about vampires is a purely modern invention. Yes, that is why I said the first aristocrat vampire story is what birthed the modern genre. Although I was actually wrong about it being Camilla, which inspired Dracula. That came later. The first one was the one where the vampire was explicitly based on Lord Byron by one of his jilted lovers, aka The Vampyre
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Jun 9, 2021 03:09
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Jun 9, 2021 03:16
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A.o.D. posted:Mummies are literally undead royals. Mummies as undead seems to have been a concept invented by Europeans in the 19th century, as part of a general fascination with Egyptian culture that arose in the 19th century after European empires started making incursions into Egypt. The point of mummifying, like so many other cultures' burial/post-death rituals, was to send the soul safely off into the afterlife (which, not coincidentally, is also perceived by many cultures as putting an end to the risk of various post-death horrors that might be exacted upon the community).
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Jun 9, 2021 03:17
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you could look on it as a revenge for colonialism, i guess
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Jun 9, 2021 03:27
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brb, gonna eat me some mummy soup. And completely ignore that's cannibalism.
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Jun 9, 2021 03:29
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Why would you eat mummies? Everybody knows you are supposed to use them as fuel for your trains. Just pile those ancient human corpses right in the firebox.
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Jun 9, 2021 04:14
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Waste of good paint ingredients, imo.
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Jun 9, 2021 05:09
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I sure hope Rich isn't undead.
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Jun 9, 2021 05:20
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Facebook Aunt posted:Why would you eat mummies? Everybody knows you are supposed to use them as fuel for your trains. Just pile those ancient human corpses right in the firebox. The joke in futurama about eating a mummy was not made up out of nowhere.
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Jun 9, 2021 05:31
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