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Persona is too afraid of having any kind of real tension or stakes or conflict to be even half as compelling as the worst SMT game.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:26
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Rockstar Massacre posted:Persona is too afraid of having any kind of real tension or stakes or conflict to be even half as compelling as the worst SMT game. I've played most of the Trails of Cold Steel games so I know what this actually looks like, and nah, you're wrong, Persona is not that. I find most SMT stories just profoundly boring and purely functional.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:28
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SMT cool, Persona hates gay people
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Jun 9, 2021 15:29
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Rockstar Massacre posted:Persona is too afraid of having any kind of real tension or stakes or conflict to be even half as compelling as the worst SMT game. lmao
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Jun 9, 2021 15:30
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A persona game would never, ever have the confidence in its writing to let a character go through a big traumatizing and motive-defining experience like losing an arm without having them explicitly tell the player how it made them feel. Nocture rules because it's willing to let stuff go unsaid.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:37
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except when they do lol also one approach isnt objectively better or worse than the other. u understand you can just prefer one thing without the other being Bad and Wrong. very easy to do, and makes you much happier.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:49
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I like both series. Scared?
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Jun 9, 2021 15:51
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It's bad when characters let me know how they feel about massive events. Instead, they should just be completely aloof at all times. I like SMT but geez, let's not pretend their stories are like, rich tapestries of dense semiotic meaning.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:52
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The lack of story and characters is a feature imo. I just want to call this Law guy a dweeb and punch a mothman. I don’t need long cutscenes and seemingly endless text boxes in every RPG. I hope SMTV doesn’t go further with the story than apocalypse, I feel like that was an okay mix if not somewhat tonally inconsistent.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:54
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Also, if we actually look at a Persona game for an example, nearly all of Sae's character progression in P5 happens through implication and scenes we don't actually see.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:54
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I like both series. Scared? please dont have fun. its not allowed.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:58
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I feel like I experienced whiplash when getting to the points where Chiaki and Isamu decided on what their Reasons would revolve around; Chiaki especially goes from 0 to 100 between Shibuya and Ikebukuro and I have no earthly idea why Isamu thought going to the prison by himself was a good idea, but him getting pissed off that we didn't save him as fast as he'd liked certainly caught me off guard. Basically, please let the characters have some room to breathe and develop.
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Jun 9, 2021 15:59
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i like both kinds of games but persona def feels like the "more accessible" one, or maybe just "less bullshit". But bullshit is kind of the point sometimes in SMT, so I accept it. It's like, I dunno, comparing D&D editions or something.
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Jun 9, 2021 16:01
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I wonder if they'll ever try doing the SMT 1/2/Devil Summoner party system as a throwback (MC + magic-using human + 4 demon slots), either in main SMT or in some other game
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Jun 9, 2021 16:03
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Most Atlus games have pretty boring writing, SMT just comes off better for having less of it most of the time and leaning more on vibes and funny demon dialogue. The only Atlus games I've actually enjoyed for their writing are the more distinct spinoffs and non-MegaTen titles (when the Studio Zero guys aren't involved).
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Jun 9, 2021 16:04
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Arist posted:Also, if we actually look at a Persona game for an example, nearly all of Sae's character progression in P5 happens through implication and scenes we don't actually see. Yeah, but you still occasionally get someone who ignores all elements of that character progression, or character context at all, to claim that Sae is a heartless monster of some kind. I don't really have a point here, I just like bringing up critically stupid takes on media I like.
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Jun 9, 2021 16:53
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I feel like the slick framing and cinematography of Nocturne carries most of that game's narrative weight. Chiaki and Isamu go nutballs offscreen, but the slow zooms in moody lighting and those cool abstract reason monologues get me way more invested in them than any Persona antagonist ever has, despite hours and hours of screen time. I still love the Persona games, but I wouldn't mind if that series' stylish presentation bled beyond the UI sometimes.
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Jun 9, 2021 17:45
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ChaosArgate posted:I feel like I experienced whiplash when getting to the points where Chiaki and Isamu decided on what their Reasons would revolve around; Chiaki especially goes from 0 to 100 between Shibuya and Ikebukuro and I have no earthly idea why Isamu thought going to the prison by himself was a good idea, but him getting pissed off that we didn't save him as fast as he'd liked certainly caught me off guard. This has always been a big complaint of mine with Nocturne as well. Some people have countered my criticism with praising Nocturne's subtlety. We can just imagine what kind of poo poo Chiaki went through by the time we see her at the Mantra HQ. I don't think one or two more cutscenes with her and Isamu would have killed the story or made it too "on the nose" or whatever. As a lifelong Xenosaga and Xenogears and Metal Gear Solid fan, subtlety is overrated.
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Jun 9, 2021 18:08
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I think SMT games could stand to have more character development for the characters, and modern Persona games could stand to have more concise and subtle writing. I'm not going to compare P5 to Nocturne because there was a 15 year or so gap between those games with many, many more Megatens in the middle. The writers involved have changed dramatically between those two points. If you're going to compare Nocturne to another Megaten, then go with P3 or even P2. God, P2 has great writing, i love it.
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Jun 9, 2021 18:14
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Yeah, I agree with this. Apocalypse had a great dynamic with the cast. I understand the appeal of the more solitary tone of the older games (I love Nocturne alot) but I would rather have characters that exist for reasons other than being alignment mouth pieces you chat with every 6 hours going forward. It's all about execution. Walter and Jonathan are always around compared to Jimenez and Zelenin...but they both suck so much that they are still less fleshed out and believable than Jimenez and Zelenin. The Apoc Crew are actually competently written so I can understand where they are coming from and where they are going. So I think either approach can work, Future Alignment Reps or having a pseudo team/party. Just gotta actually do it well. Also the Partner system doesn't get enough credit for how it changes up your playstyle. Having Asahi as your Partner really does change some boss battles considerably. Same for Hallelujah. It's actually a very cool way to reinforce the game's themes, using the actual gameplay and not just cutscene speeches. Of course, that is if you go Peace/Bonds.... NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jun 9, 2021 |
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Jun 9, 2021 18:18
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Arist posted:I've played most of the Trails of Cold Steel games so I know what this actually looks like, and nah, you're wrong, Persona is not that. You don't enjoy choosing between status quo and really bad alternatives !?
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Jun 9, 2021 18:22
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thats why tde is ftw
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Jun 9, 2021 18:25
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The partner system is really unbalanced though. There's almost no situations where you shouldn't just use Navarre for bosses and Toki for grinding hordes. Asahi is good for healing, but Navarre's buffs are just better Nozomi is useless, Gaston steals turns, and I don't remember what Hallelujah of Isebeau do They made Toki's insta kill for hordes way to good Somebody fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jun 9, 2021 |
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Jun 9, 2021 18:28
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Stux posted:thats why tde is ftw trusting literally lucifer lol
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Jun 9, 2021 18:30
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Gaius Marius posted:The partner system is really unbalanced though. There's almost no situations where you shouldn't just use Navarre for bosses and Toki for grinding hordes. So I uh accidentally replied to your post by editing it. I'm sorry. I fixed it. Navarre is actually not great by the end. He doesn't learn Luster Candy, that's for Isabeau. He does learn Debilitate but I'd rather just have that on my MC and some demons, along with LC. Asahi for heals and instant Smirk is far more useful, IMO. Hallelujah protects you from all status effects, has a party-wide Endure and later learns powerful elemental magic that pierces.
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Jun 9, 2021 18:37
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The atmosphere really does a ton of heavy lifting for Nocturne. Otherwise it is just a series of dungeons interspersed with Demifiend dispassionately listening to world leader candidates with laughably terrible sales pitches Except the manikins, they probably didn't do anything wrong but also you can't help the common man rise up because that would be too sensible RIP
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Jun 9, 2021 19:34
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Gaius Marius posted:trusting literally lucifer lol no, going with literally the only option that doesnt doom everyone to the stupid death cycle. its taking a risk to try and do something that isnt the world just dying forever lol
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Jun 9, 2021 19:48
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I recall some bosses that go into gently caress YOU mode if you buff/debuff beyond a certain threshold so Navarre is not always the best option. Hallelujah is invaluable for exactly one boss fight but he and Isabeu are quite competent with their elemental spells once they get them. It's true Nozomi and Gaston aren't worth much, though.
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Jun 9, 2021 19:59
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ChaosArgate posted:I feel like I experienced whiplash when getting to the points where Chiaki and Isamu decided on what their Reasons would revolve around; Chiaki especially goes from 0 to 100 between Shibuya and Ikebukuro and I have no earthly idea why Isamu thought going to the prison by himself was a good idea, but him getting pissed off that we didn't save him as fast as he'd liked certainly caught me off guard. They both experienced a literal apocalypse and then spend every moment off-screen fighting for their lives. Keep in mind they are traversing the same world we are and they don't have satan bug superpowers or demonic allies. Someone awhile back made a good post about how those two in particular are basically forming Reasons that are trauma responses to the hosed up poo poo they just went through. Isamu is unreasonable to act so pissy at you once you find him in the prison but he did just spend that entire time being tortured in a mirage hellscape. His mind probably cracked a little. All that to say I still definitely understand where you're coming from, there's a lot of development that happens off-screen so it can feel like these people change suddenly even though there's a big chunk of time of them being out in the Vortex World by themselves between our meetings.
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Jun 9, 2021 20:34
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Oh yeah it totally makes sense how they got to those points, and Isamu's path is actually mostly pretty straightforward now that I'm really thinking about it, its mostly Chiaki's hard pivot to might-makes-right that I'm not quite sure I fully followed, or why she ended up at Yoyogi Park and then the top of the Mantra HQ after that. She has just enough of a throughline that its not impossible to connect the dots, it just feels like with her, there's a bit of "tell, don't show".
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Jun 9, 2021 20:51
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There's no real sense of time to Nocturne's plot, Demi-fiend could've spent months just laying down half dead in a hospital.
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Jun 9, 2021 22:29
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Gaius Marius posted:trusting literally lucifer lol have you seen the other guy
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Jun 9, 2021 22:29
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NikkolasKing posted:So I uh accidentally replied to your post by editing it. I'm sorry. I fixed it. Even with luster candy I prefer having him with doping and Dekaj and Dekunda. I vastly prefer him allowing me to get in an extra attack over having one of the guests take a shot. ChaosArgate posted:Oh yeah it totally makes sense how they got to those points, and Isamu's path is actually mostly pretty straightforward now that I'm really thinking about it, its mostly Chiaki's hard pivot to might-makes-right that I'm not quite sure I fully followed, or why she ended up at Yoyogi Park and then the top of the Mantra HQ after that. She has just enough of a throughline that its not impossible to connect the dots, it just feels like with her, there's a bit of "tell, don't show". Chiaki makes perfect sense imo. Chiaki managed to escape the hospital and get to Shinjuku on her own, was super traumatized by seeing everything and everyone she knew die, then when Demi Fiend shows up at the club she realizes that even the few who may be left have been irrecoverably changed. She decides to only rely on herself, takes Gozu Tennoh's power and the rest is her just solidifying her own point of view. Oxxidation posted:have you seen the other guy I'll kick his rear end too, gently caress anyone who ain't a human
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Jun 9, 2021 22:42
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freedoms cool, you still got hidden powers and probably punch a god by like college or smth
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Jun 9, 2021 22:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1bgbfEPUog
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Jun 9, 2021 22:44
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atlus pleas rerelease ISP and EPP and tl EPP..... please...
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Jun 9, 2021 22:47
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they did ulala so dirty in the psp opening
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Jun 9, 2021 23:08
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NikkolasKing posted:So I uh accidentally replied to your post by editing it. I'm sorry. I fixed it. Mods get a special version of "quote is not edit" 
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Jun 9, 2021 23:09
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I think Chiaki's journey is preeeeetty underdeveloped. I can see a world where Issamu's experience leads him to his reason, but Chiaki? I think the existance of Hijiri also muddies the water a little bit because he's explicitly like "dude I can't fight any of those demons" so you assume Chiaki and Issamu can't either. She's not getting into fistfights with demons, so what causes her to arrive at "only the strong should survive" in a world where she is literally one of three of the weakest beings in existence? Any theorizing about her background is pure speculation or exists outside of what the actual game tells you, which is basically nothing.
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Jun 9, 2021 23:33
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Yeah the game doesn't really explain that Chiaki is a rich elite. You mostly get the impression that she's no-nonsense honor student from the prologue. When you put that together though her Reason does make a little more sense. She lived a life of being at the top of the totem pole and then had it snatched away by the apocalypse.
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Jun 9, 2021 23:42
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