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I think it’s more useful to ask what we think the symbol hell represents or points to.
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Jun 10, 2021 23:12
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Well that is fine and dandy because I am in a symbolic Hell right now.
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Jun 11, 2021 00:01
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I believe in a literal place of separation from God, which my Church calls Hell. I do not believe God uses the threat of Hell to make us straighten up, or that God punishes us with it, though. God created us to know Him, love Him, and serve Him in this life, so as to be happy with Him forever in the next, but not because if we don't do those things he won't let us, but because we have to do those things so that we will find "constantly being in God's presence" something that makes us happy. At the end of our lives, either we'll experience God's constant presence as infinite joy, or as humiliation, embarrassment, aggravation - for some of us it will remind us of getting to spend an entire day with our best friends, with absolutely no negative distractions, and for some of us it will remind us of having to spend an hour making polite conversation with our least-favorite coworker, with absolutely no positive distractions. So some of us will turn our back on the source of everything good, and choose to have nothing at all that is positive or pleasant; we'll be in Hell, and we'll be alone, and we'll be there forever, because we literally won't have time, time will not be a thing we have anymore, to change our minds.
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Jun 11, 2021 00:08
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zonohedron posted:I believe in a literal place of separation from God, which my Church calls Hell. I do not believe God uses the threat of Hell to make us straighten up, or that God punishes us with it, though. God created us to know Him, love Him, and serve Him in this life, so as to be happy with Him forever in the next, but not because if we don't do those things he won't let us, but because we have to do those things so that we will find "constantly being in God's presence" something that makes us happy. Yeah this is my take, something like the "grey town" in C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce." I don't believe there is a place created by God specifically to punish the wicked. Instead, some will be unable to leave behind their Earthly attachments and embrace God's love, so they'll exist in a state of misery that is either Purgatory or Hell depending on whether they eventually leave it or not. My understanding is this is somewhat like the Orthodox conception where Heaven and Hell are not distinct "places" but instead different ways of relating to God's infinite loving presence.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:44
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I think something similar except that separate from God is nothingness. Hell points to the state where I am separated from God, separated from myself from who I am, and separated from everybody else. That’s an imminent threat; not something to worry about after my death but to worry about right now. It’s overcome by grace. After I die what was of me that didn’t have being will be nothing and the parts of me that had being will continue in God. Past that I hope for the resurrection of the body, but I think we only hope for things that are absent.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:06
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zonohedron posted:I believe in a literal place of separation from God, which my Church calls Hell. I do not believe God uses the threat of Hell to make us straighten up, or that God punishes us with it, though. God created us to know Him, love Him, and serve Him in this life, so as to be happy with Him forever in the next, but not because if we don't do those things he won't let us, but because we have to do those things so that we will find "constantly being in God's presence" something that makes us happy. I can't remember, are Catholics permitted to be annihilationists? If I remember correctly some of the Early Church Fathers were?
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Jun 11, 2021 02:21
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I can't remember, are Catholics permitted to be annihilationists? If I remember correctly some of the Early Church Fathers were? No. Your body and soul will exist forever.
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Jun 11, 2021 03:33
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I think it was swedenborg that had some idea about hell being basically a place for souls still stuck at 'sin is... Fun and good?' to learn from natural consequences why that's not true, but not meant to be torturous besides those natural consequences? And some souls leave heaven for hell bc heaven just ain't for them yet? That I think is fun to entertain, but that's mostly because if literal fire and brimstone Hell ends up being real then lol @ my atheist rear endSpacegrass posted:Does anyone here of the Christian faith believe in Hell? I have seen it; well, at least when I was really suffering. I am interested in hearing more about this
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Jun 11, 2021 06:00
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Killingyouguy! posted:
I do not have the proper words to describe it without sounding like a complete lunatic, but it did seem real to me.
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Jun 11, 2021 06:41
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A vision by no means puts you outside of the religionthread crowd.
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Jun 11, 2021 13:11
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In Orthodoxy, the fires of hell is generally understood as the same fire of God's love that illuminates and deifies the saints. It's a fire that burns away sin, so if sin is all one has, if one is still attached to their passions even after death, then the fire is going to torment rather than glorify. St. Isaac the Syrian describes it as everlasting remorse, like being with someone you know you've wronged. Fortunately, hell--that is, gehenna--technically doesn't exist yet, but is a state that will only come about with the Last Judgment. Until then, sinners go to Hades, where the torment is more the anticipation of future punishment than of one being carried out right now. And since the Last Judgment hasn't happened yet, the eternal destiny of these souls hasn't been settled yet. So it's entirely possible and even promoted in the Church to pray for the dead, do good deeds on their behalf, and commemorate them at the Liturgy, even those who might be in hell (as we do on Pentecost during Kneeling Vespers). And according to Tradition, it really does help. St. Macarius once spoke to a skull who described his torment as being in total darkness and isolation, and when people pray for the dead, they can begin to see each other. St. Gregory the Great is said to have prayed the emperor Trajan out of hell. And St. Xenia became a fool-for-Christ for the sake of her deceased husband. St. Mark of Ephesus taught that it will definitely be temporary for some people; that they'll be purified by their time in Hades, or by the prayers of the living, or even by the experience of death. There's also the question of whether the future punishment will be everlasting or temporary. A lot of it depends on how you understand the use of "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25. Origen understood it to refer to the source of the fire (that is, God), but not the duration (there's a separate Greek word that definitely refers to duration, but it's not the one used). After the 5th Ecumenical Council, the standard teaching of the Church is that it is the duration. I personally take a paradoxical view: both universalism and (for lack of a better term) infernalism are true. The punishment will be temporary and corrective, like an emergency surgery. But since our relationship with time will presumably be different, the past won't necessarily be past anymore; it'll still be part of the one punished. Like how one tends to keep the scars after a surgery, or how the effects of an amputation never really go away. And until then, I can still pray that they'll be saved. As for experiencing hell in this life, that happened to St. Silouan the Athonite, as he was preparing to join the monastery. His ultimate lesson was "Keep your mind in hell, and don't despair."
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Jun 11, 2021 18:08
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if u dont believe in hell, how can you explain... your posting ???  
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Jun 11, 2021 20:33
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if posting is hell then hail satan I'mma shitpost for eternity babeyyy
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Jun 11, 2021 21:37
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I know I'm supposed to believe in hell but I can't really make it work with my conception of God. This may be a defect in me, though, rather than in the teaching. I'm not very orthodox, so to speak. And yeah if you want to try to describe a religious or transcendent experience, this is a good thread for it, but I can understand if you don't even want to try. The few 'religious experiences' I've had are almost impossible to relate so that they sound like anything.
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Jun 11, 2021 22:19
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HopperUK posted:I know I'm supposed to believe in hell but I can't really make it work with my conception of God. This may be a defect in me, though, rather than in the teaching. I'm not very orthodox, so to speak. As for religious experiences, they are often very simple sounding. I had a profound one and it sounds like a one-paragraph ghost story!
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Jun 11, 2021 23:15
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Nessus posted:
Yeah one of the most profound experiences of my life comes down to 'I saw a very beautiful cloud' and like, there's no way to convey what actually happened.
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Jun 11, 2021 23:27
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HopperUK posted:I know I'm supposed to believe in hell but I can't really make it work with my conception of God. This may be a defect in me, though, rather than in the teaching. I'm not very orthodox, so to speak. Have you read this book? That All Shall Be Saved I've even read an argument from a Calvinist about universal salvation. But Hart's lecture I listened to on this subject really made sense to me. Forget the sins of the sinner, those who love them can't truly be in Heaven knowing those they loved are in perpetual agony. Even the worst human being who ever lived had somebody who loved them and how can that person be experiencing joy knowing their father or son, mother or daughter, brother or sister, cousin or simple friend. is burning in hellfire?
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Jun 12, 2021 00:38
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Cross posting from another thread:
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Jun 12, 2021 00:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Forget the sins of the sinner, those who love them can't truly be in Heaven knowing those they loved are in perpetual agony. Even the worst human being who ever lived had somebody who loved them and how can that person be experiencing joy knowing their father or son, mother or daughter, brother or sister, cousin or simple friend. is burning in hellfire? I'm not a Christian, but I'm curious about this topic - I asked someone (I forget who, a classmate probably) about this idea once and their explanation was that in Heaven people are apart from their worldly attachments including attachment to family, and that since they are with God they now understand and accept and agree with God's ultimate wisdom in sending the person-formerly-their-loved-one to Hell. We only balk at the idea now because we're a bit removed from God in the current world. Is this actually backed up, biblically or otherwise (various Church traditions etc)? Asking the thread not just you
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Jun 12, 2021 01:24
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Killingyouguy! posted:I'm not a Christian, but I'm curious about this topic - I asked someone (I forget who, a classmate probably) about this idea once and their explanation was that in Heaven people are apart from their worldly attachments including attachment to family, and that since they are with God they now understand and accept and agree with God's ultimate wisdom in sending the person-formerly-their-loved-one to Hell. We only balk at the idea now because we're a bit removed from God in the current world. Is this actually backed up, biblically or otherwise (various Church traditions etc)? Asking the thread not just you the first thing to say about this is that different groups of christians have different opinions about doctrines like this. some christians believe we will remember our earthly lives in the afterlife, some don't. some people believe we will be reunited with our loved ones and recognize them when we get to the afterlife, some believe this is not possible because our bodies and minds will be transformed into something totally different. it's a real grab bag of beliefs, and imo it is not really the most important area of doctrine because uh who cares about the exact specifics of some of this heaven stuff, the important thing is figuring out how to live the life you have right now
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Jun 12, 2021 01:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Forget the sins of the sinner, those who love them can't truly be in Heaven knowing those they loved are in perpetual agony. Even the worst human being who ever lived had somebody who loved them and how can that person be experiencing joy knowing their father or son, mother or daughter, brother or sister, cousin or simple friend. is burning in hellfire? Suppose I were to love somebody who had a drinking problem, and that person were to get a DUI and lost their license. I can still be happy even though my dear friend, or my close relative, or what-have-you, has been punished; I can, in fact, be happy that they've been punished. "That's perverse and disgusting, zonohedron! You can't compare the fires of hell to losing your license!" Well no, obviously, but I also can't compare the way I love someone in this life to the way that I will, God willing, love those I knew once I am in Heaven. I will see them as God sees them and love them as God loves them, and so if it is possible for a loving God to allow someone to separate themselves from Him, it seems like those in Heaven understand why God allows this, too. To say "Hell can't exist, because God is love and Hell is unloving," is to beg the question; it's like saying, "Heaven cannot be a compensation for earthly suffering, because nothing could compensate for earthly suffering." (They are very similar assertions, besides both being question-begging; they're declaring that something can't be true because we don't understand it or don't like it.) Killingyouguy! posted:I'm not a Christian, but I'm curious about this topic - I asked someone (I forget who, a classmate probably) about this idea once and their explanation was that in Heaven people are apart from their worldly attachments including attachment to family, and that since they are with God they now understand and accept and agree with God's ultimate wisdom in sending the person-formerly-their-loved-one to Hell. We only balk at the idea now because we're a bit removed from God in the current world. Is this actually backed up, biblically or otherwise (various Church traditions etc)? Asking the thread not just you Aside from Lutha Martin's helpful reminder about different groups of Christians having different opinions, I would point out that some Christians whose denominations teach the existence of Hell would nevertheless object to the very framing of your question. For example, for Catholics, God doesn't send anyone (except the fallen angels) to Hell; we, by our lives, either choose God or not-God, and if we choose not-God, that's what we get. (Which, in turn, is why the modern Church doesn't talk about Limbo anymore - Limbo means "hem" and was something like the very edge of the hem of Heaven, where people who were unbaptized could experience perfect natural happiness, but no supernatural happiness. But if it's a question of what you choose with your life, someone who hasn't purposefully, knowingly rejected baptism might well have been doing their best to choose God over self, God over everything, their whole lives long, and in that case they should get what they chose, just like anyone else.)
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Jun 12, 2021 02:15
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zonohedron posted:Suppose I were to love somebody who had a drinking problem, and that person were to get a DUI and lost their license. I can still be happy even though my dear friend, or my close relative, or what-have-you, has been punished; I can, in fact, be happy that they've been punished. "That's perverse and disgusting, zonohedron! You can't compare the fires of hell to losing your license!" Well no, obviously, but I also can't compare the way I love someone in this life to the way that I will, God willing, love those I knew once I am in Heaven. I will see them as God sees them and love them as God loves them, and so if it is possible for a loving God to allow someone to separate themselves from Him, it seems like those in Heaven understand why God allows this, too. People only do things they understand. "I don't understand" is the equivalent of saying "I don't believe or agree" for most human beings. And that's good. People shouldn't do things without knowing why and they shouldn't hold beliefs that are contradictory.
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Jun 12, 2021 02:27
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NikkolasKing posted:People only do things they understand. Honestly I don't think that's true at all. People do things all the time without understanding why they're doing them or, sometimes, what they're doing. I also don't think 'I don't understand God sometimes' is the same as 'I don't believe in God sometimes'. It all depends how you approach the mysterious.
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Jun 12, 2021 02:45
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HopperUK posted:Honestly I don't think that's true at all. People do things all the time without understanding why they're doing them or, sometimes, what they're doing. Of course the unconscious exists and explains a lot of nutty things we do but if you have an actively held belief like "I'm Christian" you wouldn't say "and I don't know why." I don't think it's radical or unfair to say "God works in mysterious ways" just doesn't cut it for a lot of people.They want to know why God does the things he does and if his actions or existence is unbelievable or even reprehensible...they won't be Christains.
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Jun 12, 2021 03:09
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HopperUK posted:I know I'm supposed to believe in hell but I can't really make it work with my conception of God. This may be a defect in me, though, rather than in the teaching. I'm not very orthodox, so to speak. Nah, it's not just you. I can't reconcile eternal punishement on any level with a benevolent and omnipotent God either. Just seems unfathomably petty to create humanity with the capacity for evil, not reveal your laws to them universally, and then decide that only the faithful should be spared eternal torment, so I tend to beleive that is probably humans imposing their personal sense of propriety.
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Jun 12, 2021 03:51
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Maybe it's not so much Hell I don't believe in as it is hopelessness. I don't believe the God who walked among us and lived among us and fell in love with us and died for us and with us and then tore the entire natural order to shreds because it wasn't good enough would ever give up on us no matter how adamantly we've given up on him. I guess I don't believe in a Hell that has a lock on its gates, or a Heaven that doesn't have a fatted calf on standby for every prodigal son or daughter that eventually finds their way to its doors. That being said, it's sometimes difficult to distinguish between what I believe and what I want to be true. There's a lot of overlap. And ultimately I don't know, and won't know for some time yet.
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Jun 12, 2021 04:05
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NikkolasKing posted:Of course the unconscious exists and explains a lot of nutty things we do but if you have an actively held belief like "I'm Christian" you wouldn't say "and I don't know why." A lot of people of faith do and have said exactly that, though. I don't know, I don't think it's radical or unfair to want answers either, to even demand those answers as Job did (and to not take "CHECK OUT THIS KICKASS SEA MONSTER I MADE" for an answer). I don't think that not getting those answers, or not being satisfied by them, need be an impediment to faith, though it certainly CAN be. Like the classic analysis of the problem of suffering that concludes that a wholly benevolent, all-powerful God isn't in any way sensible. As a logical construction, that's certainly true; a benevolent God (as we understand benevolence) couldn't abide unnecessary pain, and an omnipotent God (as we understand omnipotence) wouldn't be so limited as to render any pain necessary. For a while I took comfort in the idea of a God that wasn't necessarily all-powerful, but was entirely on our side. Now I kind of just accept that there are answers (about suffering, about the nature of God's benevolence, about the nature of God's power) that I don't have and may not ever have, for all that it's worth striving for those answers (just because something's impossible doesn't make it not worth trying). I can talk your ear off about what might be true, what I hope is true, what my opinion of that truth is. But ultimately, yeah. I believe. I don't really know why, sometimes.
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Jun 12, 2021 04:20
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Hell is real, awful, and we have a moral imperative to destroy it through transferring our good karma to those inside of it and attaining liberation in order to teach others.
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Jun 12, 2021 16:17
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The problem of hell was on of the primary reasons I moved on from christianity. To me, it seems irreconcilable to say: 1. God is omnipotent. 2. God is good. 3. God is willing to let the unfaithful suffer (in some form or another) for eternity. It seems to me that all three can't be true without stretching the conception of "good" so far from the common common understanding of the word that it is effectively meaningless.
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Jun 12, 2021 17:10
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military cervix posted:The problem of hell was on of the primary reasons I moved on from christianity. To me, it seems irreconcilable to say: Main argument I've heard for Hell under these principles is that for a lot of evil people Heaven would be so far out of what they could accept that it would just be another Hell if you forced them into it, so God lets them go. This ends badly because rejecting Heaven is a terrible idea, but if free will is a thing (and good and evil existing at all pretty much depends on it; is there any morality possible without choice?) then people have to be able to say no, even to good things.
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Jun 12, 2021 18:02
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military cervix posted:The problem of hell was on of the primary reasons I moved on from christianity. To me, it seems irreconcilable to say: The gates of Hell are locked from the inside. People there would be there because they want to be, not because they have to be. Their suffering would be their separation from God, and if they're fine with that, it's not really suffering.
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Jun 12, 2021 18:56
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military cervix posted:The problem of hell was on of the primary reasons I moved on from christianity. To me, it seems irreconcilable to say: Think of it the other way around. Say God did exist, and you don't like him because you disagree with his morality. You like yours better. Wouldn't you want the opportunity to stay away from him?
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Jun 12, 2021 21:29
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Captain von Trapp posted:Think of it the other way around. Say God did exist, and you don't like him because you disagree with his morality. You like yours better. Wouldn't you want the opportunity to stay away from him? The first is probably achievable by most people without like, organic injuries to the nervous system, but it's not exactly trivial to do either. The second? The second is much more dubious. The consequences seem to be substantial, and the thing about "eternal" is that that's a really long time. I have always appreciated the Mormon concept, which is that everyone's going to get a patient briefing from angels that explains everything and allows them to fully and completely get their questions answered before moving on to celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory. Is it accurate, who knows - as a Buddhist, of course, I don't expect it to be - but it certainly seems rooted in compassion. MadDogMike posted:Main argument I've heard for Hell under these principles is that for a lot of evil people Heaven would be so far out of what they could accept that it would just be another Hell if you forced them into it, so God lets them go. This ends badly because rejecting Heaven is a terrible idea, but if free will is a thing (and good and evil existing at all pretty much depends on it; is there any morality possible without choice?) then people have to be able to say no, even to good things. BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Hell is real, awful, and we have a moral imperative to destroy it through transferring our good karma to those inside of it and attaining liberation in order to teach others.  But what will become of the Fire Elephants if we empty out the hell realms
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Jun 12, 2021 22:08
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Well there is also apocatastasis. That everything might be reconciled, restitution or restoration of everything back to God at the end, even the demonic.
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Jun 12, 2021 22:21
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So a longish post. Bare with me. Some family members have belonged to a conservative church for some time. I didn't know how conservative till last summer when I visited for an extended period of time was in their bubble. We're talking, straight up ties to Mike Pence born again and the Bible is against socialism bullshit. I avoided talking to them about most stuff, but what's gross to me is their raising their children to believe all this stuff, and so far, the kids (boy and a girl) are in hook line and sinker. So here's the things that are not consistent about the teachings (and I've read a lot more of the Bible over the last year than I ever have, and done a fair amount of research). The concept of faith in being connected to something greater makes sense. But if there is a higher power, and with what we know for a dead certainty about the universe (trillions of stars, billions of galaxies) and all that, the fact that this individual would impose incredibly strict rules that go against what we know about the natural world now seems... illogical. Often times the church would say that the old testament is as important as the new testament, but the old testament God is a pretty lazy and terrible all powerful being, and I say that from reading the text. Furthermore, the two big ones that the born again's talk about are homosexuality and (well now they focus just on Trans issues, but that's really what they're trying to focus on, and fear tactics around bathroom laws) and the elephant in the room abortion. With both, Jesus said nothing about them, and with both, they basically aren't mentioned in the bible. Homosexuality is brought up in new texts several times, but those times it's been translated when it original meant pedophiles being bad. Abortion was never an issue in terms of bible and the right either until they swerved into making it their brand in the 70's. Furthermore, if there are people in this thread that are opposed to abortion (and that's fine, again I'm all about the individual having their ability to choose) how do you justify making things less safe for individuals who do not wish it, when it's supposed to be their decision and consequence with this God, and up for him to decide. Outlawing it does not decrease rates of abortions. Only access to birth control and proper sex education lowers rates to abortions. How do you ethically justify telling someone else what they get to chose to do with their body, and not instantly be aware that that attitude is built on sexism and oppressive patriarchy? Again, if you don't want to have an abortion, and don't like them as an idea, that's totally fine. But demanding others follow that same belief is using those same beliefs in fact a sin, according to the very same rules that you believe and follow. And would't putting laws on the books limiting what others do in fact also an even worse sin? I'm not trying to troll here, asking a group of people that I would hope would have a more consistent argument for those things that logically don't seem to have very strong argument.
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Jun 13, 2021 01:22
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LionArcher posted:So a longish post. Bare with me. You won't find many people here that agree with them on very much. Conservative Evangelical Protestantism is kind of its own thing the rest of us do our best to ignore, or at least not engage with.
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Jun 13, 2021 01:53
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Honestly, I would say virtually every sentence you've written has an enormous quantity of background assumptions that requires probably an effortpost's worth of unpacking to even get to the point where you and a conservative/orthodox Christian would even be on the same page to start a discussion.
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Jun 13, 2021 01:57
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Conservative Evangelicals are a political movement, not a religious one.
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Jun 13, 2021 02:19
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LionArcher posted:I'm not trying to troll here, asking a group of people that I would hope would have a more consistent argument for those things that logically don't seem to have very strong argument.
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Jun 13, 2021 02:20
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military cervix posted:The problem of hell was on of the primary reasons I moved on from christianity. To me, it seems irreconcilable to say: if this post reflects the amount of thought and effort you put into it, i can see why you gave up. if it's not clear: i am not being complimentary
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Jun 13, 2021 05:37
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