politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Count Roland posted:

The 'Stans of the former USSR, minus Kazakhstan.

The borders are stupidly obtuse. This does happen sometimes, like Holland/Belgium or India/Bangladesh, but this is when there's a messy war fought in the area.

Yet the countries of Central Asia were colonized by Russia in the 19th century. Looking at Africa you'd expect unreasonably straight borders, not the intentionally stupid ones we have today.

Most of that was due to Soviet rejiggering so that each Stan would get a tiny piece of the only inhabitable/arable parts of the steppes

# ? Jun 13, 2021 00:23

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 16:17

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Don't those borders mostky follow watersheds? I could be completely out to lunch though.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 00:44

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

I'd very much like to get into a derail about those borders. I have a book that claims Stalin made the borders ugly on purpose so as to keep the different Stans in conflict with each other instead of the USSR. This sounds pretty questionable though.

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Lord Hydronium: Sep 25, 2007; Non, je ne regrette rien

North America definitely feels like it was made by somebody who got lazy after finishing Central America and just decided to split the rest between three countries.

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Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Lord Hydronium posted:

North America definitely feels like it was made by somebody who got lazy after finishing Central America and just decided to split the rest between three countries.

�poo poo. They�re going to notice. I�ll give a little bit over here to, uh, France.�

# ? Jun 13, 2021 01:39

Brawnfire: Jul 13, 2004; 🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

"No no lots of people had colonies there but England got all that

Yeah there were Dutch and Swedes and everything wish you'd been there"

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Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

�There were Russians in California. I wouldn�t just make that up.�

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Old James: Nov 20, 2003; Wait a sec. I don't know an Old James!

The French even had colonies in Brazil.

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# ? Jun 13, 2021 03:45

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

There is stan chat not far back in this thread from when I mentioned my current partner is ethnically russian from Kazakhstan. (mostly from people smarter than me!!)

The potato blight made me think of the wine blight, and the great dark secret that a majority of french vineyards in the present use foreign varietals replanted after the aphid hellmarch.

this one is bonus politically-loaded if you check that dotted line over past the eastern border :france:

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jun 13, 2021

# ? Jun 13, 2021 03:45

Pekinduck: May 10, 2008

Blut posted:

Its worth noting that Ireland's population loss wasn't just from the millions of famine induced deaths in the 1840s either. Desperation emigration resulted in millions fleeing the country both during the famine and for decades afterwards too.

Between 1845 and 1895 the Irish population went from 8.2million to 4.5 million. During which time Scotland's population went from 2.5million to 4.5million, and England from 15 million to 30 million. Ireland in 1895 by the growth standards of neighbouring regions should have had a population of around 15 million, not under 5 million.

Its a pretty horrifying loss of population.

IIRC there's now more Irish-Americans than Irish. Boston has numerous monuments memorializing the famine.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 05:10

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

Speaking of potatoes, does the middle east have any less new world plants in its cuisine from being on the opposite side of the planet and the furthest out of the loop for European trading?

Old James posted:

The French even had colonies in Brazil.

They still do.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 05:19

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Pekinduck posted:

IIRC there's now more Irish-Americans than Irish.

By a lot. 32 million Irish-Americans, 6.5 million Irish.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 05:20

Powered Descent: Jul 13, 2008; We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Grand Fromage posted:

By a lot. 32 million Irish-Americans, 6.5 million Irish.

How many generations does Irishness last in America? Do I qualify as one of those 32 million thanks to my one Irish great-grandparent?

# ? Jun 13, 2021 06:03

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Powered Descent posted:

How many generations does Irishness last in America? Do I qualify as one of those 32 million thanks to my one Irish great-grandparent?

One drop of Irish blood.

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Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

Everyone on St. Patrick's day

# ? Jun 13, 2021 07:28

Pakled: Aug 6, 2011; WE ARE SMART

Powered Descent posted:

How many generations does Irishness last in America? Do I qualify as one of those 32 million thanks to my one Irish great-grandparent?

Most numbers about ethnicity and nationality coming out of the US are purely self-identified. And I feel like Irish-American is a "popular" nationality that a lot of people with little Irish blood choose to go by.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 08:26

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

Count Roland posted:

I'd very much like to get into a derail about those borders. I have a book that claims Stalin made the borders ugly on purpose so as to keep the different Stans in conflict with each other instead of the USSR. This sounds pretty questionable though.

Its bullshit, naturally. Stalin had fairly monstrous policies towards turkic ethnic groups but keeping his internal borders in conflict with each other is pretty much the opposite of what he thought his ethnic policies were for. And they make a bit more sense as the internal borders of a state where the provinces would share resources than as independent states competing for them.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 09:33

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Pakled posted:

Most numbers about ethnicity and nationality coming out of the US are purely self-identified. And I feel like Irish-American is a "popular" nationality that a lot of people with little Irish blood choose to go by.

A quarter of the population of Ireland is estimated as having emigrated to the US in the 1840s, about 2 million people. And over 6 million Irish people emigrated directly to the US over the years. So a very significant number of people did go.

Powered Descent posted:

How many generations does Irishness last in America? Do I qualify as one of those 32 million thanks to my one Irish great-grandparent?

You can claim an Irish passport by having just one Irish born grandparent, so legally that I guess.

But on a practical level Identifying as Irish-American is actually decreasing significantly over time, as the family links to Ireland become further and further back. The vast majority of Irish emigration to the US was in the 1840s-1920s period, with a smaller trickle 1920s-1980s, and almost none since. In 1980 over 40 million Americans (out of a US population of only 225million) identified as Irish-American. Thats down to 32 million now out of a population of of 330million.

Blut fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Jun 13, 2021

# ? Jun 13, 2021 10:54

Groda: Mar 17, 2005; Hair Elf

A Buttery Pastry posted:

One drop of Irish blood.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: Irish blood quantum

# ? Jun 13, 2021 11:20

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

Count Roland posted:

The 'Stans of the former USSR, minus Kazakhstan.

The borders are stupidly obtuse. This does happen sometimes, like Holland/Belgium or India/Bangladesh, but this is when there's a messy war fought in the area.

Yet the countries of Central Asia were colonized by Russia in the 19th century. Looking at Africa you'd expect unreasonably straight borders, not the intentionally stupid ones we have today.

What made them this way? I assume it was some kind of sovjet era gerrymandering.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 11:39

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

I get why plastic paddy stuff is annoying to actual irish people but the flipside is people love to erase irish heritage to own the americans. There are lots of living people with irish parents and grandparents, even fairly young people like my high school best friend who just turned 28. His grandma was the first real irish accent I heard. Irish (catholics) were also discriminated against for a long time even if they usually count as acceptable white people now, so even if its great or great great grandparents, the "we are irish" story gets passed down longer than living memory. Would the irish great grandparents whose youngest living descendants are blandly american claim those kids aren't irish because they were assimilated, by coercion in many cases?

It's an arguable situation but it's not a total farce like rando white people going "I'm 1/64 cherokee so let me tell you about Standing Rock"

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jun 13, 2021

# ? Jun 13, 2021 13:44

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Plastic paddys provided extremely critical support for Ireland gaining its independence and the Irish government uses them to advance its interests with stunning regularity to this day

# ? Jun 13, 2021 13:46

a pipe smoking dog: Jan 25, 2010; "haha, dogs can't smoke!"

Feel like we need one of those alignment chart things for level of plastic paddyness.

Not sure on the axis definitions but What I'm basically saying is that Eamon De Valera was a plastic paddy.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 15:17

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I get why plastic paddy stuff is annoying to actual irish people but the flipside is people love to erase irish heritage to own the americans. There are lots of living people with irish parents and grandparents, even fairly young people like my high school best friend who just turned 28. His grandma was the first real irish accent I heard. Irish (catholics) were also discriminated against for a long time even if they usually count as acceptable white people now, so even if its great or great great grandparents, the "we are irish" story gets passed down longer than living memory. Would the irish great grandparents whose youngest living descendants are blandly american claim those kids aren't irish because they were assimilated, by coercion in many cases?

It's an arguable situation but it's not a total farce like rando white people going "I'm 1/64 cherokee so let me tell you about Standing Rock"

An Irish university did a study last year involving 781 young (18-30 year old) self categorized Irish-Americans. Lots of interesting info, but quite a relevant summation point was this I thought:

So sure, almost 40% have never been to Ireland. So may be a bit plastic-paddy (or just poor and unable to afford the trip, to be fair). But about 45% have been to Ireland 2+ times. Which is still quite a strong connection to the "homeland". Given the age range in question too its likely they'll visit Ireland multiple times more their lifetime if they've already been twice+ before age 30.

Blut fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Jun 13, 2021

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ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I get why plastic paddy stuff is annoying to actual irish people

Excuse me, we prefer the term "Weekend Irish."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUxhIAJYwWo

I'm more "Highland Games Scottish"

# ? Jun 13, 2021 16:02

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Powered Descent posted:

How many generations does Irishness last in America? Do I qualify as one of those 32 million thanks to my one Irish great-grandparent?

If you explode into flames upon entering sunlight, you're in.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 17:25

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Roll a twenty-sided die.

On a result of nineteen or twenty, you�re Irish.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 17:27

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

Ethnicity is one of those weird things that you can't really define the lines around, but the remnants of ethnic identity can hang around for a very long time after the group has apparently assimilated. The American melting pot is an amazing thing, but from things that have happened in other countries, it's not impossible that some kind of extreme event might make rifts with previously accepted groups and have an effect on people who maintain a connection to their heritage (although in America's history more often you see people trying to hide their heritage when that becomes a less-accepted group and most prejudice in the US focuses on visual appearance).

And there is a whole thing where groups that maintain some connection to their foreign heritage will still end up drifting apart from their changing homeland.

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Vivian Darkbloom: Jul 14, 2004

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Pope Hilarius II: Nov 10, 2008

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

It's an arguable situation but it's not a total farce like rando white people going "I'm 1/64 cherokee so let me tell you about Standing Rock"

I've always found that so incredibly weird. Like, I'm quite sure that 5-6 generations back some of my ancestors were French but it would never occur to me to drop that casually, let alone meaningfully, and no one I know would care a jot.

I suddenly recall a vaguely amusing anecdote. During my job orientation day a long with a few new colleagues at a previous employer, one of the colleagues had an obviously Spanish family name, so the HR person asks: "Oh, your last name is Spanish, right?" - "Yes." - "For how long has your family been in Belgium?" - "Uh about 500 years." I should have made a quip about paying of debts for burning down Antwerp but the moment itself was funny enough.

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Bro Dad: Mar 26, 2010

FreudianSlippers posted:

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A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I get why plastic paddy stuff is annoying to actual irish people but the flipside is people love to erase irish heritage to own the americans. There are lots of living people with irish parents and grandparents, even fairly young people like my high school best friend who just turned 28. His grandma was the first real irish accent I heard. Irish (catholics) were also discriminated against for a long time even if they usually count as acceptable white people now, so even if its great or great great grandparents, the "we are irish" story gets passed down longer than living memory. Would the irish great grandparents whose youngest living descendants are blandly american claim those kids aren't irish because they were assimilated, by coercion in many cases?

Does it matter? If we're going by identification as understood by individuals, rather than as a group*, then it should clearly be up to the kids whether they self-identify as Irish - their great grandparents should have no say in it. In any case, I feel like part of the issue is (being seen as) identifying as Irish, as opposed to Irish-American. Also Americans clearly showing their connection to Ireland by associating it entirely with getting drunk and terrorism, and even combining the two in the Irish Car Bomb.

*as in being Irish means both identifying as Irish and being identified as Irish by other people identifying as Irish.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 21:08

feller: Jul 5, 2006

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Does it matter? If we're going by identification as understood by individuals, rather than as a group*, then it should clearly be up to the kids whether they self-identify as Irish - their great grandparents should have no say in it. In any case, I feel like part of the issue is (being seen as) identifying as Irish, as opposed to Irish-American. Also Americans clearly showing their connection to Ireland by associating it entirely with getting drunk and terrorism, and even combining the two in the Irish Car Bomb.

*as in being Irish means both identifying as Irish and being identified as Irish by other people identifying as Irish.

No none of this matters. No one gives a poo poo in America other than just using the day to get drunk. It�s as baffling to me that you all care so much about it as it is baffling to you that it exists.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 21:25

Tweezer Reprise: Aug 6, 2013; It hasn't got six strings, but it's a lot of fun.

For a lot of American white people, the ethnic qualifier is very abstract at best and a totally fake thing resulting from the alienation of living in a post-industrial settler state at worst.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 21:31

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

One of my best friends in the world cares because his family experienced anti-catholic anti-irish nonsense and we bonded because I got the same anti-jew and anti-french nonsense. Drunks who only care because lol carbombs and leprechauns are a loving stereotype.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 21:36

ThisIsJohnWayne: Feb 23, 2007; Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!

yikes! posted:

No none of this matters. No one gives a poo poo in America other than just using the day to get drunk. It’s as baffling to me that you all care so much about it as it is baffling to you that it exists.

Let's try it like this: it's the rest of the worlds version of White Black or Latinx, or Sports Team A B or C. And then you get social class (modified by current wealth and wealth during childhood) on top of that as well as everything else.

# ? Jun 13, 2021 21:36