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My father, mother and uncle all turned out super progressive for late boomers so that gen's reactionary fascination befuddles me. Dad's dad was a veteran chopper pilot who quickly saw through the bullshit in vietnam, while mom was a black sheep of a conservative montana family. When I first was told about Fox News at age 12, I asked "Why are these idiots still rabid worshippers that's archaic" Grouchio fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 11:44
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Ok Comboomer posted:why do you think a generation of German engineers and commanders who’d all been shelled into meth addiction by the Great War and economically humiliated on the world stage became obsessed with building idiot poo poo like the biggest, most elaborate guns the world had ever seen? Or the biggest tanks? That was really Hitler/Hitler enabling loons/people giving Hitler what he wanted. He intervened in the design process constantly to demand more armour and bigger guns without understanding how this would overload them and as the war went on he became more and more convinced he knew better than anyone else. It's like when a rich idiot insists on overruling their architect and you get a godawful McMansion. E.g. on the Panther: quote:Complicating matters further, Hitler feared the 60mm frontal armor would not suffice against future anti-tank guns
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Jun 13, 2021 15:14
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Guderian's memoir is hilarious for some of the poo poo he reports where Ferdinand Porsche was trying his best to sell snake oil to Hitler in the form of a railway mounted artillery piece that he was arguing could be used against tanks and Hitler was thrilled. Take it all with a grain of salt, of course--it's a memoir. Still amazingly funny.
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Jun 13, 2021 16:50
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Haha trump totally tried to dig up dirt on all his people to blackmail them https://twitter.com/nytmike/status/1404100213216776201
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Jun 13, 2021 17:00
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Haha trump totally tried to dig up dirt on all his people to blackmail them There were actual investigations that could have led to this. Without more information we don't have any idea how legitimate this particular subpoena was.
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Jun 13, 2021 17:11
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Herstory Begins Now posted:About 80% of Black millennials with at least a bachelor's degree still have student loan debt, compared with about half of white millennials. Sounds like a great reason to support student-loan forgiveness, just as the high no. of Black & Latino Americans without health insurance is a great reason to support M4A.
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Jun 13, 2021 17:35
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Tuxedo Gin posted:So, if Vietnam was an incredibly unpopular war, what happened to all of those anti-war boomers? They all grew up to be pro-war? Turns out attributing a single unified viewpoint to "everybody who was born in the US over a period of two decades" is in fact a massive oversimplification of complicated social, cultural, and political dynamics in 70 million people.
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Jun 13, 2021 17:35
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Josef bugman posted:It is interesting to note that apparently a lot of that "Millenial wealth" is just Mark Zuckerberg.
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Jun 13, 2021 17:41
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mdemone posted:There were actual investigations that could have led to this. Without more information we don't have any idea how legitimate this particular subpoena was. I know when it comes to the 2018 Department of Justice I'm all about giving them the benefit of the doubt...
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Jun 13, 2021 17:50
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Main Paineframe posted:Turns out attributing a single unified viewpoint to "everybody who was born in the US over a period of two decades" is in fact a massive oversimplification of complicated social, cultural, and political dynamics in 70 million people. Don't need to pin a single viewpoint on them. Statistics suggests that a lot of people who were anti-war during the Vietnam war are now far more okay with war now that they are not at risk of fighting it themselves. Unless all the anti-war folks of the Vietnam era died off and all our recent immigrants within the same age range are weirdly into bombing brown people?
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Jun 13, 2021 17:53
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Delthalaz posted:Many of them are still around, but they never represented boomers as a whole. The anti-war boomers were just vastly over represented in popular culture My parents were such boomers. Dad became a teacher to avoid being drafted, and was very anti Iraq war. They are, as far as I can tell, some of the few “good ones”. They also have no close friends that are boomers. Their closet friend is a silent generation woman who is amazing.
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Jun 13, 2021 17:54
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I know the new government is probably going to be just as bad as the last one, but also get hosed, Bibi. https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1404138095654670338?s=20
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Jun 13, 2021 19:23
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JT Jag posted:Yeah, someone did the math and Zuckerberg possesses like 12% of all millennial wealth
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Jun 13, 2021 19:27
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Willa Rogers posted:Sounds like a great reason to support student-loan forgiveness, just as the high no. of Black & Latino Americans without health insurance is a great reason to support M4A. Yeah it's unambiguously a good thing, but it's going to take a hell of a lot more than that to unfuck things. Probably needs something on the scale of reparations while completely dismantling the various structures that exist to funnel wealth out of black communities.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:30
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mdemone posted:Wanted to draw attention to this because it's a remarkable piece of journalism and well worth your time. I want to encourage people not to sleep on this, it's really well done. Gasp Surprise it's a combination of horrible attitudes about mental health, a ridiculously lackadaisical attitudes towards guns, and the awful availability of guns. Kip was sleeping with a loaded gun in his bed. One thing I'd like to note is how much his schizophrenic hallucinations mirrored the rhetoric of the far right. There's a reason that old treatise called it the paranoid style of American politics.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:33
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah it's unambiguously a good thing, but it's going to take a hell of a lot more than that to unfuck things. Probably needs something on the scale of reparations while completely dismantling the various structures that exist to funnel wealth out of black communities. Also, while student debt relief needs to happen, it won't solve the affordability crisis for higher education. Still needs to be done, still will help a lot of people of color but we need a more permanent solution.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:36
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Tuxedo Gin posted:So, if Vietnam was an incredibly unpopular war, what happened to all of those anti-war boomers? They all grew up to be pro-war? Boomers only didn't support the war because they were at risk of being drafted. This is why there were many protests on college campuses, because they were able to express their upset at even the notion of drafting them. College enrollment greatly increased during this time. It was only unpopular because boomers are the most sociopathic cohort of generations that America has ever seen. It's also retroactively unpopular. Boomers at the time of the Vietnam War were actually very for it compared to other generations alive at the time. This has held up for the rest of their lives, as well, and kind of explains why they were so for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars--they have bloodlust and won't be the ones fighting. Also during the Vietnam War fraggings were at their peak. That is, soldiers throwing grenades to kill their superior officers so they would not have to fight. In the Iraq and Afghanistan wars there were almost no recorded fraggings or assassinations of this type. Also, Clinton is a great example of how far boomers went to avoid service for a war they supported: quote:Playing the system became an art, effected by means whose baroque complexity makes clear the intent of its practitioners. The form was perfected by one William Jefferson Clinton, who established an early pattern of hypertechnical compliance and regulatory manipulation, garnished as necessary by occasional dishonesty. Like millions of Boomers, Clinton received a deferment during college and secured an additional deferment for graduate school, as was customary and legal. However, after graduate school deferments were eliminated in 1968, Clinton became eligible and received an induction notice in 1969. Facing this inconvenience, Clinton signed an agreement with the Reserve Officer Training Corp (ROTC), which lowered his chances of being immediately inducted, though it did require him to commit to a period of military service at a later date (perhaps after the war had ended, as it shortly would). The rules changed again when Nixon allowed graduate students to postpone induction until their current school year was complete. Clinton took advantage of this development, breaking his agreement with ROTC (which had a 100 percent chance of requiring service) presumably in the hope—ultimately successful—that a draft lottery would be introduced, which would by definition have better odds than ROTC’s sure thing. As usual, Clinton’s timing was apt: It was well understood that a draft lottery was coming, and even if Clinton drew a low number (which meant a high chance of being drafted), Nixon had been elected the prior year to bring an end to the war, which might moot the entire question. The essential thing was to continue dragging out the process, just as the Boomers are now doing with Social Security and other programs.* In the end, Clinton’s gamble succeeded; he got a good draft number, and troop levels peaked in 1969, reducing draft pressures thereafter. The net effect of Clinton’s several years of maneuvering meant that he was able to sit out the war.28 (Co-Boomer Dick Cheney, meanwhile, racked up five deferments of his own—and while the number is startling, his deferments were more straightforward.29) One of the first things Carter did, as well, was pardon (maybe not the right word) people who draft-dodged--all people who were boomers. Tldr: as a generation boomers aren't antiwar--theyre anti-themselves-fighting-a-war. The Sean fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 19:38
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The Sean posted:Boomers only didn't support the war because they were at risk of being drafted. This is why there were many protests on college campuses, because they were able to express their upset at even the notion of drafting them. College enrollment greatly increased during this time. It was only unpopular because boomers are the most sociopathic cohort of generations that America has ever seen. That's not really a book that merits quoting or even reading. The author is a venture capitalist (one of the creators of PayPal) and has no credentials whatsoever for social criticism. He works for Peter Thiel, known crazy person.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:46
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mdemone posted:Wanted to draw attention to this because it's a remarkable piece of journalism and well worth your time. This really is exceptional.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:47
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The bigger thing for me about "boomers" in general is after Vietnam and Nixon they were cynical of the government. Fine, fair enough and understandable. But when we exposed conservative leadership for trying to screw us over, constantly making backroom deals, and also engaging in foreign policy that is hurting Americans they kept electing them. Like, they got it half right but won't ever acknowledge the awful conservatism that followed Vietnam and the 60s to now.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:55
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Agents are GO! posted:I want to encourage people not to sleep on this, it's really well done. To me, Kip's apparent rehabilitation has been just about the best-case scenario for such cases. His personal story should be a model for juvenile offenders in many cases, violent offenders in many cases, and mentally-ill offenders in many cases. What has gone right for him since his incarceration, and what has been wrong-headed? So much to learn. A wonderfully reported story from top to bottom, in several different and important ways.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:01
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:I know the new government is probably going to be just as bad as the last one, but also get hosed, Bibi.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:02
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It is hilarious how perfect the 60s counter-culture was for being co-opted by the right.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:12
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The Sean posted:Boomers only didn't support the war because they were at risk of being drafted. This is why there were many protests on college campuses, because they were able to express their upset at even the notion of drafting them. College enrollment greatly increased during this time. It was only unpopular because boomers are the most sociopathic cohort of generations that America has ever seen. this is sociopathic gobbledygook, even for you (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 13, 2021 20:17
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Ok Comboomer posted:this is sociopathic gobbledygook, even for you Which part of this is untrue and do you have data to back it up? Effort should meet effort, right?
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Jun 13, 2021 20:19
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Mooseontheloose posted:The bigger thing for me about "boomers" in general is after Vietnam and Nixon they were cynical of the government. Fine, fair enough and understandable. But when we exposed conservative leadership for trying to screw us over, constantly making backroom deals, and also engaging in foreign policy that is hurting Americans they kept electing them. Like, they got it half right but won't ever acknowledge the awful conservatism that followed Vietnam and the 60s to now. Eventually I think that cynicism has it's uses on an individual level, but applied too broadly it allows things to stagnate on a worse and worse level as time goes on.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:26
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^^^ It's convenient for allowing capital to shift the blame from itself & have liberals turn on each other instead.Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah it's unambiguously a good thing, but it's going to take a hell of a lot more than that to unfuck things. Probably needs something on the scale of reparations while completely dismantling the various structures that exist to funnel wealth out of black communities. Yet M4A and student-debt relief would be the quickest ways to provide immediate racial equity while waiting on other stuff like reparations & criminal-justice reform. And those things would provide generational equity, too! We olds have Medicare protecting us from balance billing & $8,000/year deductibles & ultra-narrow networks, while even the best employer-provided health plans these days have massive out-of-pocket costs, particularly for lower-wage workers. Even (especially!) pre-Medicare boomers face daunting medical costs before reaching age 65. (Say, whatever happened to that Medicare-at-60 that Biden proposed? Has it been sent to the same farm as a public option and drug-price controls?) As someone mentioned upthread, it's capital at the heart of generational inequity, not those born between a particular timeframe. But capital's perfectly happy to have people blame it on the boomers; indeed, that's the entire reason that the boomer meme started! Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 20:28
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The Sean posted:Which part of this is untrue and do you have data to back it up? Effort should meet effort, right? “people don’t wanna die or get hosed up in a war” isn’t the profound revelation that you appear to think it is also keep in mind that the people you’re ascribing this kind of reptilian coldness to were 17-22 during Vietnam, at a time when all of the Greatests and Silents were eagerly beating the patriotism drum and a critical mass of American adults supported the war. I’m not going to blame a generation of teenagers for not taking the most perfect stand against their nation of adults and betters (remember, both parties and the White House want this war), or for voting for Nixon or whatever while also dodging the draft. Like we completely take for granted what it was like to grow up in a post-Vietnam America where a critical mass of people could even be jaded enough about a war. Get outta here with that crypto-bushido bullshit about how boomers are backstabbing snakes or whatever because they didn’t all become pacifist leftists after Vietnam. trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 20:35
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Ok Comboomer posted:“people don’t wanna die or get hosed up in a war” isn’t the profound revelation that you appear to think it is Again, they supported the war at a high level--more than other generations at the time. It wasn't just about them not wanting to die. You also ignored what I said about higher levels of fragging their commanding officers. You're "not taking the perfect stand" or whatever bit is odd because they actively supported the war. quote:Today, popular memory presents Vietnam as a story of a war opposed by the young, but that is convenient rebranding. Young people today tend toward the pacific. During the 1960s youthful Americans (i.e., Boomers) were the most militant cohort. Contemporary surveys routinely showed younger groups (generally under thirty) as the most supportive of the Vietnam War and of aggressive strategies for prosecuting it. These prowar attitudes proved stubborn, so despite accumulating news reports of reversals and abuses from 1966 onward, young people remained throughout the war the group least likely to view the engagement as an error. The Sean fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 20:51
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mdemone posted:Wanted to draw attention to this because it's a remarkable piece of journalism and well worth your time. Yeah that's a pretty horrifying pro-click, holy poo poo.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:53
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The Sean posted:Again, they supported the war at a high level--more than other generations at the time. It wasn't just about them not wanting to die. I, for one, am shocked that hastily trained draftees were much more likely to attack superiors to get out of fighting than volunteer professional soldiers. Especially in a military that restructured its whole training approach to better cement that kind of group identity and avoid such events. Clearly the first group was just born evil.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:00
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Ok Comboomer posted:“people don’t wanna die or get hosed up in a war” isn’t the profound revelation that you appear to think it is What is your position exactly? This post makes it sound like you're saying that it's justifiable and reasonable for baby boomers to be pro-war and to support and encourage imperial wars while also ensuring that they themselves don't have to actually participate.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:03
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Killer robot posted:I, for one, am shocked that hastily trained draftees were much more likely to attack superiors to get out of fighting than volunteer professional soldiers. Especially in a military that restructured its whole training approach to better cement that kind of group identity and avoid such events. Clearly the first group was just born evil. Wait. Are you saying that murdering someone with explosives is not evil?
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Jun 13, 2021 21:06
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Don't need to pin a single viewpoint on them. Statistics suggests that a lot of people who were anti-war during the Vietnam war are now far more okay with war now that they are not at risk of fighting it themselves. Are you talking about people who opposed the Vietnam war specifically, or the much smaller cohort of people who opposed all war or all American war? American opposition to the Vietnam war included a variety of groups, from a variety of generations, with a variety of reasons and motivations. Boomers are particularly identified with the anti-war movement because student protests baffled the establishment and got lots of coverage. But not all college students opposed Vietnam, many of those who did only opposed that particular war, and most of all, only a bit over half of boomers went to college in the first place. In any case, the basic trajectory of Vietnam War support and Iraq War support is pretty similar. The mainstream opinion heavily backed war when the political leaders (backed up by near-unanimous media support) assured them that it would be a simple, quick, justified war in response to unprovoked aggression, in which American military power would rapidly win the day. When the war dragged on, body counts stacked up, and no easy path to victory appeared, the media cheerleading diminished after a few years and public opinion quickly collapsed. It's just that the anti-war resistance to Iraq seemed far weaker because the media refused to cover it.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:13
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The Sean posted:Again, they supported the war at a high level--more than other generations at the time. It wasn't just about them not wanting to die. Again, you’re talking about the political opinions of a bunch of teenagers during a time period following a World War, a decadelong red scare, nuclear proliferation, and the assasination of a president. If you asked a bunch of middle schoolers during the 2000s if they supported George W Bush you’d get about as meaningful a dataset. Also your beef about people fragging their officers ignores that this was the war that gave us poo poo like Project 100,000, where we sent thousands of literally mentally and occupationally disabled teens, many of them of color, kids who in many cases couldn’t read or communicate effectively or properly care for themselves, to go get hosed in the meat grinder but yes this is all proof that boomers have an inherent rottenness, I’m sure you’re right!
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Jun 13, 2021 21:23
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The Boomers, to the extent that they are a unified section of American society, do appear to have strong tendencies towards the suck-rear end. At a certain point though it seems like you're abandoning further analysis or the potential for actions by saying "the problem is that the Boomers just loving suck and have killed us all" instead of "the problem is that the Boomers were, in general, faced with fewer challenges than previous or subsequent generations, and were successfully targeted by militarist propaganda" (for instance). Like if the analysis you are making reaches the conclusion of, "the problem is that they're just plain evil," or even "the problem is that they're just plain evil at a higher rate than subsequent generations," you are basically saying "can't do anything about it!"
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Jun 13, 2021 21:27
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Ok Comboomer posted:Again, you’re talking about the political opinions of a bunch of teenagers during a time period following a World War, a decadelong red scare, nuclear proliferation, and the assasination of a president. If you asked a bunch of middle schoolers during the 2000s if they supported George W Bush you’d get about as meaningful a dataset. You moved goalposts from "college aged" to "middle school aged" to make whatever point you were going for.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:31
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The Sean posted:Wait. Are you saying that murdering someone with explosives is not evil? I mean this is a weird way to frame it when we're talking about conscripts blowing up their superiors so they wouldn't have to participate in... *checks notes*... an unjust, illegal war involving the use of megatons of explosives on civilians. Blowing up people is Pretty Bad, but this is people blowing up the people telling them to... blow up people. It's a really weird thing to try to use as a  PERFIDIOUS BOOMERS talking point.Only a minority of boomers were against Vietnam start to finish, so it's not surprising that only a minority of them were against other wars later. There was no magical ~turning conservative~ because most of the "hippie generation" stuff was just superficial pop culture fluff, and the actual radical counter-culture types were a minority. The people who WERE anti-war back then weren't all faking it or some weird poo poo like that, they were just a minority all along.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:31
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does anyone have a resource for good historical polling where we could breakdown stances on the vietnam and iraq war by generational cohort? i have a hard time believing boomer sentiment had any particular significant shift given that i believe polling of the general populace never had opposition to the vietnam war peaked much above the low to mid 50s at the height of the anti-war movement, and initial opposition jut before the start of the iraq war ranged from the mid 40s to the mid 50s depending on how unilateral the declaration of war would be (this is just going off of figures posted on relevant wikipedia pages). unless the boomers are completely blowing the curve on opposition to the vietnam war and support of the iraq war, the slight difference in support just isn't large enough to suggest mass boomer hypocrisy this pew research article from 2002 suggests that young boomers were more supportive of the vietnam war then the older generations and that young gen xers were more supportive of the first gulf war than either the boomers or the silent and greatest generations, which suggests that the boomers as a whole aren't uniquely pro-war compared to other generations and this is all before you get into the question of how to account for things like the shorter relative lifespans of working class and minorities, which would cause demographic shifts in the cohort over the decades that you'd probably have to account for when comparing polls it just seems like an argument resting on some very broad stereotypes of generational opinions without much facts to actually back them up
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Jun 13, 2021 21:32
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The Sean posted:Wait. Are you saying that murdering someone with explosives is not evil? I'm not sure whether to believe that your genuine takeaway was that I was commenting on the ethics of fragging or that you thought claiming I was would be a smooth deflection from your absurd premise that differences in the military cultures in Vietnam and Afghanistan are just because boomers are intrinsically evil.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:53
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