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I can't tan but my last Irish ancestors were probably in the 10th century (due to my other ancestors kidnapping and enslaving them). Sadly the state genealogical records (known to foreigners as "that incest prevention app") get a bit spotty before 1703 so finding out if I actually have an Irish great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-reat-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandpappy is tricky. 
FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 22:25
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Wilsonian Armenia and Faisal's Syria from an atlas printed circa 1919 A good start.
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Jun 14, 2021 01:31
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Byzantine posted:A good start. How can you say that when a small part of anatolia would go to
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Jun 14, 2021 03:26
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Guavanaut posted:That's not what the song is about! 
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Jun 14, 2021 04:46
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https://twitter.com/nocontextbrits/status/1404179297900843009?s=21
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Jun 14, 2021 05:14
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yikes! posted:No none of this matters. No one gives a poo poo in America other than just using the day to get drunk. It’s as baffling to me that you all care so much about it as it is baffling to you that it exists. Not really baffling that it exists either. You can understand why something exists and still think it's disrespectful or appropriation. The Irish-American thing is also just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how America deals with non-American identities. Edgar Allen Ho posted:One of my best friends in the world cares because his family experienced anti-catholic anti-irish nonsense and we bonded because I got the same anti-jew and anti-french nonsense. Drunks who only care because lol carbombs and leprechauns are a loving stereotype.
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Jun 14, 2021 06:33
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:Another map in which Portugal is an honorary East European country. Unsurprising that Walloon Belgium is "unavailable". It is too bad that there were no dash cams when I lived in Aachen, because the red-plated visitors would have been enough for a whole YouTube channel.
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Jun 14, 2021 11:28
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The first good map of this type.
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Jun 14, 2021 11:45
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Wilsonian Armenia and Faisal's Syria from an atlas printed circa 1919 What's up with those three small states south of Georgia?
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Jun 14, 2021 14:46
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Count Roland posted:What's up with those three small states south of Georgia? They exist for moments following the end of the Great War, before being absorbed into the surrounding powers. 
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Jun 14, 2021 15:10
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Count Roland posted:What's up with those three small states south of Georgia? the two closest to the black sea are kind of where adjara is which is an autonomous part of georgia mostly because they historically used to be muslims rather than orthodox. The region sort of bleeds into turkey so I guess there was some dispute as to which state they'd be lumped into or whether they were distinct enough from other georgians to merit their own state? Not sure about the other bit. I'm having a hard time working out where it translated onto modern borders but I think it might be Lori? Thats Amernian now but was part of Georgia when it was in the Russian Empire.
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Jun 14, 2021 15:16
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Space Kablooey posted:How can you say that when a small part of anatolia would go to Byzantium is part of the Roman Empire, forums user Byzantine is loyal to Rome, as he well should be
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Jun 14, 2021 19:15
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VictualSquid posted:What made them this way? I assume it was some kind of sovjet era gerrymandering. In the 1920s, the Soviet government took an approach to Central Asia called "National Territorial Determination", which basically meant that they drew borders based on the "majority" ethnic/national group in any particular region...so for instance, there was an Uzbek SSR, which was the official national territory of the Uzbek. Then they basically gave all sorts of special rights and privileges to the "official" ethnicity of the SSR or ASSR. In practice, this worked really badly, partly because a lot of areas were ethnically mixed, and partly because a lot of Central Asians were nomadic or seminomadic, which meant they didn't really have fixed borders naturally. (Another thing the Soviet Union did was basically try to suppress nomadism). Also what constituted a "nation" was largely arbitrary and decided by Soviet anthropologists and bureaucrats in Moscow, which meant that groups got lumped together as a single nation even though they didn't consider themselves to be one. Things got more complicated later on, because in the 30 and 40s, Stalin got concerned with "disloyal ethnicities", so he engaged in a lot of forced deportation and ethnic cleansing, and settled ""loyal" Russians in a lot of the Central Asian republics.
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Jun 14, 2021 20:10
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That's fascinating. Did that approach lead a lot of lobbyists trying to convince the central bureau that their ethnicity should be the major one?
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Jun 14, 2021 20:35
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A shitton of jews got deported to Kazakhstan from formerly Poland, and ended up being extremely pro-Stalin during the war years. There's several truly bizarre yiddish ballads from the time. Rather less bizarre considering how the alternative during the war years looked, to be fair.
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Jun 14, 2021 20:36
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Epicurius posted:In the 1920s, the Soviet government took an approach to Central Asia called "National Territorial Determination", which basically meant that they drew borders based on the "majority" ethnic/national group in any particular region...so for instance, there was an Uzbek SSR, which was the official national territory of the Uzbek. Then they basically gave all sorts of special rights and privileges to the "official" ethnicity of the SSR or ASSR. In practice, this worked really badly, partly because a lot of areas were ethnically mixed, and partly because a lot of Central Asians were nomadic or seminomadic, which meant they didn't really have fixed borders naturally. (Another thing the Soviet Union did was basically try to suppress nomadism). Also what constituted a "nation" was largely arbitrary and decided by Soviet anthropologists and bureaucrats in Moscow, which meant that groups got lumped together as a single nation even though they didn't consider themselves to be one. Things got more complicated later on, because in the 30 and 40s, Stalin got concerned with "disloyal ethnicities", so he engaged in a lot of forced deportation and ethnic cleansing, and settled ""loyal" Russians in a lot of the Central Asian republics. Not to mention the Kazakh famine in 1931-33 if you're looking at Kazakhstan in particular, which together with the famine disproportionately killing ethnic Kazakhs* and then deportations of those and settling Russians on the vacated lands uniquely (in Central Asia) contributed to Kazakhstan being majority Russian in terms of ethnicty throughout the entirety of the Soviet period. *ties together with double efforts to introduce colllectivism and put an end to pastoral nomadism, which seemed to have mostly involved forcing a bunch of people together into heavily watched settlements and seizing their animals It's really all kinds of hosed up, the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union following them up hosed up Central Asia and the Caucasus real good. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 00:07
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Holy poo poo, I was kind of aware of the Kazakh famine in a general sense but I had no idea how extensive it was; 40% of all ethnic Kazakhs died, maybe something like 2 million people. For something approaching Holodomor levels I'm kind of ashamed I didn't know that; I have Kazakh family and everything (through marriage so I shouldn't claim to have some innate understanding but still). I guess apparently it was responsible for much of the transition out of nomadism which I guess is gonna be traumatic no matter what, but I feel like this should be a bit of a bigger blip in popular consciousness in terms of 20th century horrors.
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Jun 15, 2021 01:48
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Koramei posted:Holy poo poo, I was kind of aware of the Kazakh famine in a general sense but I had no idea how extensive it was; 40% of all ethnic Kazakhs died, maybe something like 2 million people. For something approaching Holodomor levels I'm kind of ashamed I didn't know that; I have Kazakh family and everything (through marriage so I shouldn't claim to have some innate understanding but still). Here's a pretty good article that's a reivew or summary of sorts of a book that a modern historian wrote on it. There's a bunch of info in it, also a video clip. And yeah, I agree with you that it really feels like a forgotten horror and it's probably just because there's long been a lack of available documentation on this and general world (or Western in specific) disinterest in Central Asia and its history under Russian rule from the 18/19th century until the 90s and the lasting legacy of that. edit: As for the transition out of nomadism, AFAIK the famine, settlement/anti-nomadism policies and how that fit into Soviet agricultural collectivization, were devastating to Kazakh agriculture and animal husbandry which has never recovered and on top of that also suffered extensive ecological damage to its environment in the post-WWII years from mismanaged and probably poorly thought out projects. Also there's the general trend that non-Russian and especially non-Slavic, non-European areas of the Soviet Union always got the shortest end of the stick when it came to funds, talent and oversight. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 02:02
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The Soviet irrigation of the central steppe was a huge ecological disaster. I did not know but am not surprised to hear it supports fewer people than it did before the water projects. Kazakhstan has been the most affected by desertification of all the post-Soviet states.
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Jun 15, 2021 04:25
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One last thing on Irish identity: Irish American identity is obviously one extreme example of how ethnic identity is refracted through American culture, but the indignation of Irish people from Ireland when faced with it is quite ironic given their long history of different settler groups -- Vikings, Normans, Scottish, English -- both forcing others to assimilate and being assimilated themselves to form new ethnic identities. "I'm Hiberno-Norman. My name may be Uilleam FitzSimmons, but my great-grandfather had a French accent and one of my ancestors fought at Hastings."
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Jun 15, 2021 08:27
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:A shitton of jews got deported to Kazakhstan from formerly Poland, and ended up being extremely pro-Stalin during the war years. There's several truly bizarre yiddish ballads from the time. Poland's current line is that they never kicked out the Jews in 1968, and that they deserved it for being Stalinists.
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Jun 15, 2021 08:47
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MeinPanzer posted:One last thing on Irish identity: Honestly I think the irritation is mostly just terminology. I guess I can't speak for Ireland but this is how I perceive it in Scotland. When Americans say "I'm Scottish" they mean "I am of Scottish heritage", but to someone from Scotland, "I'm Scottish" means "I personally am from Scotland", either born or living in the country or possessing citizenship, and it's annoying to hear someone make a claim about themself that from your perspective you know to be factually untrue. Three of my four sets of great grandparents were immigrants to Scotland from Ireland, and I could describe that as "I'm ancestrally Irish" or "my family is originally from Ireland", but I'd never say that I am Irish, because I'm not, I'm Scottish (and in any case I'd only bring it up if it was directly relevant to the actual conversation, somehow). I've never seen someone get indignant at an American if they expressed their ancestry in the "right" way. It's almost like a shibboleth, talking about your ancestry is essentially laying claim to a cultural heritage, but when expressed as an absolute like "I'm Scottish" or "I'm Irish", you're doing it in a way that the culture you're claiming just wouldn't do.
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Jun 15, 2021 09:21
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Groda posted:Poland's current line is that they never kicked out the Jews in 1968, and that they deserved it for being Stalinists. Really? The excuse in 1968 IIRC had nothing to do with the Jews being stalinists and everything to do with the Polish government just deciding to blame them, as "rootless cosmopolitans", for student radicalism and other unrest going on in the communist bloc as well as in the West in 1968. As a result alot of Jews in Poland were fired from their jobs, which meant they lost their appartments and basically everything including support through the welfare system. Then practically everybody left Poland, with most ending up in the US and Israel, and smaller numbers in Western and Northern Europe, none of these were systematically deported they were just going no other choice but to leave the country.
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Jun 15, 2021 11:33
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Randarkman posted:Really? The excuse in 1968 IIRC had nothing to do with the Jews being stalinists and everything to do with the Polish government just deciding to blame them, as "rootless cosmopolitans", for student radicalism and other unrest going on in the communist bloc as well as in the West in 1968. I'm talking currently. In 2018, when the 50th anniversary of March 1968 came around, there was a lot of discussion about how it was to be remembered, and pushback from PiS folks justifying it based on accusations of Jewish cooperation with the Soviets, and later secret police forces. Even back in 1968, which ever way they framed it, this was a widespread view, and part of why the was such broad and immediate support from below, e.g. worker's councils voting to expel Jews from their local organizations.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:02
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Groda posted:I'm talking currently. In 2018, when the 50th anniversary of March 1968 came around, there was a lot of discussion about how it was to be remembered, and pushback from PiS folks justifying it based on accusations of Jewish cooperation with the Soviets, and later secret police forces. Even back in 1968, which ever way they framed it, this was a widespread view, and part of why the was such broad and immediate support from below, e.g. worker's councils voting to expel Jews from their local organizations. What's PiS's interest in defending the acts of the old communist government anyway? I thought they were rabidly anti-communist. I guess the answer would simply be that they like it when they did stuff they would have liked to do themselves?
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Jun 15, 2021 14:09
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They don't like the idea that Poland has ever been involved in any historical antisemitism.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:12
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Guavanaut posted:They don't like the idea that Poland has ever been involved in any historical antisemitism. And I guess they're too antisemitic to realize that labeling an entire ethnic group as "stalinist" and thinking that sufficient excuse to expel the last remnants of said group from your country barely 2 decades following a genocide which killed around 90% of them is incredibly antisemitic? Randarkman fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 14:15
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Their definition of antisemitism is "insinuating that Poland has anything to do with that genocide."
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Jun 15, 2021 14:17
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Randarkman posted:What's PiS's interest in defending the acts of the old communist government anyway? I thought they were rabidly anti-communist. I guess the answer would simply be that they like it when they did stuff they would have liked to do themselves? In the West, people believe that the socialist and capitalist eras of an Eastern European country are located on different planets. Most people there lived part of the lives in both. It's not like someone is just going to see what happened in their, say, 20's as someone else's national history, just because it happened in the Communist era. PiS is just big on saying the quiet part out loud.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:32
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Reveilled posted:Honestly I think the irritation is mostly just terminology. I guess I can't speak for Ireland but this is how I perceive it in Scotland. When Americans say "I'm Scottish" they mean "I am of Scottish heritage", but to someone from Scotland, "I'm Scottish" means "I personally am from Scotland", either born or living in the country or possessing citizenship, and it's annoying to hear someone make a claim about themself that from your perspective you know to be factually untrue. This seems to almost only happen with Ireland and Scotland though. I'm not a direct comparison: my dad (for a few months before he was brought to Chicago) and three of my grandparents were born in Alsace, I have french citizenship, I can give tourists directions to the I obviously can't speak to every x-american ethnicity combo but it seems the same with most people I've met except specifically the (now-)anglo countries. I agree the terminology seems to be the main problem and both sides assume more hostility than is meant. Most randos claiming to be scottish, for example, would probably love to go to Scotland, and be educated about why calling themselves scottish pisses people off in the process, if they could afford it.
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Jun 15, 2021 15:00
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In Iceland the descendants of the people who migrated to the Americas, mostly to Canada, from circa 1870 to 1914 are still called West Icelanders even if most of them haven't spoken Icelandic for generations. But many still identify as Icelandic and observe Icelandic national and cultural holidays. Similarly basically any place in the world with more than a dozen Icelanders has an Icelanders Association which meets regularly to eat sheep faces and such. Icelandic nationalists are very fond of praising the West Icelanders for preserving their culture abroad but complain about Thai/Polish/Filipino/etc. people in Iceland doing the same. When foreigners doing it they're not assimilating and are "forming ghettos". This is especially funny when those nationalists are part of the people who emigrated to Norway during the recession and probably belong to one of the aforementioned associations. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 15:27
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:This seems to almost only happen with Ireland and Scotland though. I'm not a direct comparison: my dad (for a few months before he was brought to Chicago) and three of my grandparents were born in Alsace, I have french citizenship, I can give tourists directions to the I think a major factor for Scots is our cultural cringe. Kilts, bagpipes, tartan and the Scots language are quintessentially Scottish things (we don't need to go into the victorian influence on tartan here) and there's a deep seated inferiority complex in many Scots that is deathly afraid of being reduced to that as a stereotype. For about 300 years the way to get ahead in Britain was to be British, not Scottish, and that meant adopting English manners and English culture. Being refined and cultured was not having those things, and even in recent years there's still that deep seated unease that those things are parochial, backwards. And unfortunately, it is what most foreign people know about us, so I think many Scots assume that Americans' knowledge of Scotland basically starts and ends at Groundskeeper Willie. I'm simplifying, of course, it's more complicated than that, but I think that's the thing, Scots have a complicated relationship with our own culture where pride and shame mingle freely, and so when someone claims to be Scottish when they're really just of Scottish ancestry, there's almost equal parts mix of "you don't even understand the culture you're claiming" and "why the hell would you want this awful culture?". It's why pretty much every scot of a certain age can recite at least part of Renton's "It's shite to be Scottish" speech in Trainspotting. So yeah, it's more of an us problem than a you problem. I'm glad other x-americans don't get this from their old countries.
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Jun 15, 2021 16:52
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I think it's interesting that you rarely ever hear any Americans claiming to be English despite the fact that everywhere you go in the US you're sure to run into plenty of English surnames. Maybe because English immigration is further in the past and "American" as an identity gradually replaced it?
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Jun 15, 2021 17:39
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Something like 1 in 6 Americans has German heritage, but you tend not to hear much about that either.
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Jun 15, 2021 17:55
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This came up before but I like this version
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Jun 15, 2021 17:56
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:This came up before but I like this version This may be my favourite map in this thread. Look how interesting and informative it is!
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Jun 15, 2021 18:02
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Mustang posted:I think it's interesting that you rarely ever hear any Americans claiming to be English despite the fact that everywhere you go in the US you're sure to run into plenty of English surnames. Maybe because English immigration is further in the past and "American" as an identity gradually replaced it? Simpler explanation: Nobody wants to be English.
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Jun 15, 2021 18:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Also Americans clearly showing their connection to Ireland by associating it entirely with getting drunk and terrorism, and even combining the two in the Irish Car Bomb. I feel that's one of those things that really dates someone as being old, if they associate Irish Car Bomb with anything other than some silly combination of random words. I imagine few Americans under 30 know that Ireland had serious domestic terrorism in recent memory, let alone having the slightest clue what the IRA is. Like I doubt most people under 35-40 would find any more meaning in "Irish Car Bomb" than they would in a drink called the "Argentine Horse Walloper", since it's been a long time since anyone outside Ireland and the UK cared about The Troubles. I'm rather under the impression that thoughts of Ireland of being a "shithole country" has been fully supplanted by modern associations with corporate tax evasion and general quaint countryside tourism. Kind of like how the first impression people have when you mention Croatia is "nice beaches and islands" and they've completely forgotten "landmines and ethnic cleansing."
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Jun 15, 2021 18:31
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The one I don't get is the average farm size. Does red mean that farms are smaller or bigger? And since that's from 1997, it'd be the result of the effects on slavery, so potentially the land could've been sliced up to make the sharecropping system work, or maybe they stayed large so large landowners could afford to use hired laborers? Does less fertile land promote larger farms to squeeze something out of nothing, or smaller farms because there's not much you can get? BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Simpler explanation: Nobody wants to be English. All Americans carry some kind of english heritage by default from being culturally birthed by Britain 300 years ago, so it's redundant if you have actual blood from England on top of that. If you're not a recent arrival, there's not a whole lot that would differentiate you. There was never a separate english immigrant subculture like other groups form.
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Jun 15, 2021 18:35
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SlothfulCobra posted:The one I don't get is the average farm size. Does red mean that farms are smaller or bigger? And since that's from 1997, it'd be the result of the effects on slavery, so potentially the land could've been sliced up to make the sharecropping system work, or maybe they stayed large so large landowners could afford to use hired laborers? Saladman posted:I feel that's one of those things that really dates someone as being old, if they associate Irish Car Bomb with anything other than some silly combination of random words. I imagine few Americans under 30 know that Ireland had serious domestic terrorism in recent memory, let alone having the slightest clue what the IRA is. Like I doubt most people under 35-40 would find any more meaning in "Irish Car Bomb" than they would in a drink called the "Argentine Horse Walloper", since it's been a long time since anyone outside Ireland and the UK cared about The Troubles.
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Jun 15, 2021 18:45
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