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I don't think any of those cards would be banned if they were printed right now except maybe worldfire, but 15+ years of inertia is a lot and the RC seem pretty set in their ways. Which is dumb.
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Jun 24, 2021 10:13
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Ooh ooh is it time to talk pet bans again? I would ban all cEDH players and make them play Canadian Highlander, which is cool as gently caress and 10000% better equipped to handle what they want to do anyway. You can't take a format that says "This format is dumb and based on the social contract by design" and say "Burt wry iz thiz nort dezined 4 comp-et-it-ion?" None of this is to say all the bans are good or the RC is smart. Both are empirically false as demonstrated previously.
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Jun 24, 2021 10:44
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The Shortest Path posted:I don't think any of those cards would be banned if they were printed right now except maybe worldfire, but 15+ years of inertia is a lot and the RC seem pretty set in their ways. Which is dumb. Naaaaah, cards that fully and completely invalidate the 90 minute game we just played is a feels bad, and cards that do so while adding potentially another full game on top of it? Absolute horseshit. Imagine the groan from your table if everyone is shields down and no one is playing blue and you’ve just wiped the board and then someone just topdecks Worldfire or Sway and the whole game just drags on forever. These cards are worse to play against than Winter Orb, IMO. Magnetic North posted:Ooh ooh is it time to talk pet bans again? I would ban all cEDH players and make them play Canadian Highlander, which is cool as gently caress and 10000% better equipped to handle what they want to do anyway. You can't take a format that says "This format is dumb and based on the social contract by design" and say "Burt wry iz thiz nort dezined 4 comp-et-it-ion?" Canadian Highlander is 1v1 and the point buy system is stupid, IMO. You’re talking about French cEDH (aka Duel Commander), which is not a multiplayer format and was specifically curated for 1v1 games. It is not the same thing at all. Also we don’t WANT the banlist designed for competitive play! No one does! The only people who do are playing Conquest, and they seem quite pleased with themselves and they have their own thing going, good for them, but I personally don’t want all the fun cards and tutors and fast mana banned. In fact, those are increasingly becoming my favorite cards to play with! Also, whether or not you agree, eventually Flash would’ve been hit with a ban, cEDH or no, because that card was already on the fence for a while and would only get stronger the more ETB/death triggers got printed, so the big cEDH olive branch wasn’t even that big a deal, it just allowed the format to not be completely 100% solved, and the result of that is the greatest surge in popularity since the format’s inception. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Jun 24, 2021 |
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Jun 24, 2021 11:59
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Bust Rodd posted:Naaaaah, cards that fully and completely invalidate the 90 minute game we just played is a feels bad, and cards that do so while adding potentially another full game on top of it? Absolute horseshit. Imagine the groan from your table if everyone is shields down and no one is playing blue and youve just wiped the board and then someone just topdecks Worldfire or Sway and the whole game just drags on forever. These cards are worse to play against than Winter Orb, IMO. Not that I disagree but shouldn't you ban all "chaos" cards too by that standard? I mean, I wouldn't mind...
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Jun 24, 2021 13:13
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Magnetic North posted:Ooh ooh is it time to talk pet bans again? I would ban all cEDH players and make them play Canadian Highlander, which is cool as gently caress and 10000% better equipped to handle what they want to do anyway. You can't take a format that says "This format is dumb and based on the social contract by design" and say "Burt wry iz thiz nort dezined 4 comp-et-it-ion?" yikes incredibly weird and childish meltdowns aside: As it is, the banlist is cool and good and needs no changes. As far as cEDH goes, it feels like the meta has never been healthier and the past couple years have introduced so many cool new tools and commanders into the mix. There isn't really a solid tier 0 deck and even fan favorite Thrasios has seemed to fall back in popularity merely because he's become kind of boring after about 5 years of being at the top of the meta and there's so many cool new options to play with right now. Commander Legends was a smash hit for introducing new toys. cEDH is not ruining EDH for anyone. Hell, cEDH players don't want to play cEDH decks against casual decks anyway-- that leads to an unbalanced, unfun game. Contrary to what you may think, "comp-et-it-ion" does not equate to "unfun", despite what you or Sheldon may think. It's just not your brand of fun, and hating us out of your ivory tower says a lot more about you than it does about us. Framboise fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jun 24, 2021 |
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Jun 24, 2021 13:36
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Magnetic North posted:Ooh ooh is it time to talk pet bans again? I would ban all cEDH players and make them play Canadian Highlander, which is cool as gently caress and 10000% better equipped to handle what they want to do anyway. You can't take a format that says "This format is dumb and based on the social contract by design" and say "Burt wry iz thiz nort dezined 4 comp-et-it-ion?"  I would rather the RC make a choice between banning the cards they don't like or just shutting the gently caress up. This halfway position of a "representative" ban list combined with condescending and paternalistic articles does nothing to actually shape the game in the direction they want. Regular playgroups have probably already decided whether they want Hullbreacher in their games. Pickup groups at an LGS aren't going to Rule 0 a custom ban list at the start of every game, and they're the groups that need a larger ban list if they're not to be blighted by the horrors of "too much ramp" or whatever the latest bee in Sheldon's bonnet happens to be. Although I suppose it does mean that Sheldon can keep getting paid by Star City to write articles where he complains about his own format, so maybe there is a winner in all this after all.
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Jun 24, 2021 14:36
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If I had to choose between Sheldon doing something about his complaints vs just writing about them I would pick the latter like 1,000% of the time. The format is good! Why shake it up for no reason?
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Jun 24, 2021 14:43
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I also agree that the format is good, so I wish Sheldon would stop stirring the pot for no reason and giving ammunition to people who would call a deck "against the spirit of commander" because it includes a card that makes him sad. I guess I just find the character that he adopts in these articles irritating and I don't think they do anything positive. To his credit, in one of his replies in the AMA he did cop to fuelling divisions between casual and cEDH players with his use of language, specifically in repeatedly implying that cEDH players don't play the game to have fun. Let's see if that changes the way he writes in the future.
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Jun 24, 2021 15:02
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I think he's just an old dude who is passionate about the format, plays in his preferred style, and is bad at communicating with people.
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Jun 24, 2021 16:58
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Here's a constructive suggestion that I saw in the AMA, and that I think Sheldon absolutely has the influence to make happen. The core of the commander philosophy is rule 0: people should have a conversation about the kind of game they want to have before they start playing and pick decks that they believe will produce that kind of game. A lot of casual players are influenced by the style of play seen on Game Knights and the like; they're already modelling behaviours like deal-making, showing people the clever things you can do at instant speed etc. I think Sheldon could speak to these YouTube players and encourage them to include rule 0 chats in the videos. It's supposed to be a rule of the game, right? And presumably those conversations are actually happening in pre-production. Game Knights already has a segment at the start where people introduce their decks in the straight-to-camera style, so the time is already allotted in the video.
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Jun 24, 2021 17:19
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Tarnop posted:Here's a constructive suggestion that I saw in the AMA, and that I think Sheldon absolutely has the influence to make happen. I think this is a good idea. While the show doesn't claim to be casual, or competitive, the cards and tactics used on the show are usually high powered and hard for anyone I play with the emulate easily/cheaply. These discussions might help people understand that some of these decks are punchier than they intended.
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Jun 24, 2021 17:27
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Grevlek posted:I think this is a good idea. While the show doesn't claim to be casual, or competitive, the cards and tactics used on the show are usually high powered and hard for anyone I play with the emulate easily/cheaply. These discussions might help people understand that some of these decks are punchier than they intended. Right, and they could even do a post-mortem video (more views!) where they talk about what was missed in the discussion if one deck clearly out-punches the rest
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Jun 24, 2021 17:33
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Ban all labman effects because they're stupid Also ban basic islands from every format because blue is too good and counterspells hurt my feewings uwu
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Jun 24, 2021 17:43
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Ban Eureka because I drove through Eureka once on the way to Portland and a trucker gave me the middle finger
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Jun 24, 2021 18:07
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Ban Divine Intervention because it is a reverse Shahrazad and makes the game end too quickly
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Jun 24, 2021 18:16
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Silhouette posted:Also ban basic islands from every format because blue is too good and counterspells hurt my feewings uwu Finally a person talking sense.
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Jun 24, 2021 18:54
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Silhouette posted:Ban all labman effects because they're stupid I mean, labman was a net negative to the format, but I can see how it seemed cool as a gimmick in 60-card constructed and didn't give a thought to it in EDH. Then Old Sheldon went and interned at WotC and because he is a moron who is so jaded about anything other than battle cruiser Sheldon Rules EDH existing, he literally never brought it up as a "this is one of the most format-warping card you've made in years" literally ever, as feedback, so they made 2 more of them and now Thassa's Oracle is not only dumb in EDH but also in 60-card land, do again, gently caress Sheldon.
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Jun 24, 2021 18:58
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Toshimo posted:I mean, labman was a net negative to the format, but I can see how it seemed cool as a gimmick in 60-card constructed and didn't give a thought to it in EDH. I don't know what you're talking about, the fact that like of the 6 top EDH decks 5 of them are strategies for resolving Thassa/Consult is in no way indicative of an imbalanced format. Tbh if they really want edh to be battlecruiser, they should just change the rules of EDH so you can't "win" the game. The only way to win is to be the last survivor.
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Jun 24, 2021 19:06
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Oh, the labman comment was serious. Labman, war jace and oracle should be banned, leave the only empty library effect in the format as that lovely sphinx from last year
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Jun 24, 2021 19:33
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My opinion for a while has been that the two worst things about EDH (yes, finally surpassing the players themselves!) are Sheldon Menery and Gavin Verhey. Purely in terms of the correlation between "low quality of their ideas about the format" and "high ability to implement their ideas," the two of them peg the top of the meter. Now if they've realized that, say, if they're rightly worried about homogenization, Gavin shouldn't be building colossal EDH value into every card he can touch, that's at least a step in the right direction. But how do you cram that genie back in the bottle without banning a shitload of stuff they're not willing to ban? "I don't like when too many decks play the same card, or when fast mana is overrepresented! Hey, here's Arcane Signet, a mana rock that costs two and goes in literally every deck!" Basically, even if they realize the right problems, I have no confidence in their ability to solve them in a way that actually improves anything.
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Jun 24, 2021 19:46
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ban all cards 2 cmc and less problem solved
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Jun 24, 2021 20:32
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Grevlek posted:ban all cards 2 cmc and less problem solved EDH subsequently renamed "Giant Leaders"
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Jun 24, 2021 20:35
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Grevlek posted:ban all cards 2 cmc and less problem solved Gonna be hard af to make decks with no lands.
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Jun 24, 2021 20:36
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Toshimo posted:Gonna be hard af to make decks with no lands. the real deck builder challenge 
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Jun 24, 2021 20:38
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Grevlek posted:ban all cards 2 cmc and less problem solved Reverse Tiny Leaders, wooooo
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Jun 24, 2021 20:41
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Toshimo posted:Gonna be hard af to make decks with no lands. I have done it.
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Jun 24, 2021 20:51
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Banned list announcement: Keruga, the Macrosage is now banned.
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Jun 24, 2021 21:06
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Arcane Signet owns, it's just that the initial rollout was garbage because they were only in the eldraine brawl decks and not included in every commander precon until months later. It's a $2 card now and will be forever, and people that complain about having a good 2 mana rock that's cheap and available to every deck are just being ridiculous. I understand people complaining about something like Jeweled Lotus, but Signet is fine. The real issue is that all of the 2 color Talismans aren't reprinted into the ground, like they should be
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Jun 24, 2021 21:22
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i was kidding about banning 2 cmc and less. i play at significantly lower 'stakes' than this thread, and even playing blue white nonsense i'm rarely lapped in mana unless there is just some green guy landramping like crazy. Even my busted 3 mana-rock hanna deck, the first time i played it and before i got any tips from this thread, had meaningful stuff to do that impacted the game i get what sheldon means by 'solved' games, but that's the nature of magic and whatever. he could go on edhrec and ban the top 100 most used cards if he cared about 'solved' games. An actually good solution, mentioned a few posts up, was to ban all win methods other than being the last person standing (paraphrasing) and I think that's a good plan for the type of battlecruiser magic Sheldon ( and I ) enjoy. I think you can keep mill, since mill makes other people lose, and not you win, and therefore lets you 'outlast' another player.
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Jun 24, 2021 22:32
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Grevlek posted:An actually good solution, mentioned a few posts up, was to ban all win methods other than being the last person standing (paraphrasing) and I think that's a good plan for the type of battlecruiser magic Sheldon ( and I ) enjoy. I think you can keep mill, since mill makes other people lose, and not you win, and therefore lets you 'outlast' another player. It's not really a thing that matters at all, though. Other than Labman/Jace/Oracle, basically all the "I win" effects, even CoalitVic are worse than just going infinite with something like Dramatic Scepter or whatnot. And it's not like Oracle is 10x better than the next choice, I don't think. It's just "enough better" that you run it because it's the most consistent and best. It's more that Labman was already a top tier effect, and when the person who is the appointed warden of the format had the chance to be like "this far and no further pls", he hosed it up, like he always does, because he can't conceive of a world outside his blinders. And Verhey is at least as bad.
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Jun 24, 2021 23:09
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The more I think on it, the more I'd be okay with Thassa's Oracle being taken out. Not because it's broken or unfair, but more just because it's kinda stale, and there's been so much new stuff in the format and new combos out there that are way more interesting. LabMan and WAR Jace could stay though, if not only because they cost more and are a bit more easy to blow out (and less easy to pull off in the early game). Still kinda stale, but it's not like Dimir has much more going for it as a combo wincon in its own colors outside of storm or Doomsday or something. Never see the ol' fishbowl these days. Framboise fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jun 24, 2021 |
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Jun 24, 2021 23:10
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Is Tainted Oracle showing up in Casual tables? If it’s just really having an impact at high power or comp tables I’m really not concerned but if everyone is just sick of the fish all over I’d be fine. If that’s all it took then Hullbreacher would be first though, literally everyone hates that card.
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Jun 24, 2021 23:24
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Bust Rodd posted:Is Tainted Oracle showing up in Casual tables? If it’s just really having an impact at high power or comp tables I’m really not concerned but if everyone is just sick of the fish all over I’d be fine. If that’s all it took then Hullbreacher would be first though, literally everyone hates that card. There are a lot of casual uses of Thoracle that aren’t as broken but are still miles better than most casual tables can deal with. There is very little counter play to this “win the game” card that exists with others. Oracle Pact won’t show up at casual tables often but for insular playgroups once that genie is out of the bottle it represents a power level arms race. For the kitchen table player that uses the banlist as gospel, this is distinctly NOT what the RC wants for the format.
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Jun 24, 2021 23:36
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I don't have as much 'background' with Sheldon/Verhy/et al that you guys do, but there is one point I totally agree with bashing him on. Just step-up and fill out the banlist, instead of providing 'guiding stars' of what type of stuff not to do, and leaving it to the players to police. Like sure there are a lot of cards, but you've all been playing for years. Get an intern to type the list up for cripes.
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Jun 24, 2021 23:39
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Gonna be playing commander with everyone then I'm gonna just focus on venturing into the dungeon while everyone else kills theyselves. I wonder if the party mechanic from Zendikar Rising is going to come back in a bigger way.
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Jun 24, 2021 23:48
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Toshimo posted:It's not really a thing that matters at all, though. Other than Labman/Jace/Oracle, basically all the "I win" effects, even CoalitVic are worse than just going infinite with something like Dramatic Scepter or whatnot. And it's not like Oracle is 10x better than the next choice, I don't think. It's just "enough better" that you run it because it's the most consistent and best. It's more that Labman was already a top tier effect, and when the person who is the appointed warden of the format had the chance to be like "this far and no further pls", he hosed it up, like he always does, because he can't conceive of a world outside his blinders. And Verhey is at least as bad. I run Mortal Combat in Iname, Death Aspect and it's a dumb as poo poo win con that almost always gets wrecked by graveyard hate but when it goes off it's hilarious. I 100% agree that alt win cons should be allowed if they're fun and hard to pull off. And yeah, gently caress Sheldon and Young Sheldon. I dread the day that Maro gets replaced with Verhey.
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Jun 25, 2021 03:52
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I don't know what should or should not be banned. I don't know how to curate the format. (except maybe banning all mana rocks that cost less than they produce...maybe). The only thing I know is that I went to my LGS on Thursday because they got some commander legends in and did a draft. It was my first time going to my LGS in over a year. The 3 other people in my pod who are avid commander players made a collective 'lol' at the prospect of winning by swinging with creatures rather than comboing off. Whether that's 'good' or 'bad' or 'fair' or 'healthy'...I don't know. I just know I'll stick to playing with my friends because that isn't fun to me. (on Sundays when the store is closed but one of them is an owner).
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Jun 25, 2021 15:03
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I think a deck should have a way to win without combat damage because folding to Constant Mist isn't much fun, but combat damage is still the most common win con in my group
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Jun 25, 2021 17:12
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Combat damage really only works in pods where everyone is on combat damage OR in pods where everyone playing combat decks agrees to bumrush the combo player. I had a pretty frustrating game of cEDH last, was P1 on Heliod, then Korvold, Winota, and Rielle, and Winota ended up winning because neither the Korvold player nor the Rielle player attacked Winota even once. I managed to get her down to 9 before they killed the table, with Korvold and Rielle contributing exactly ZERO damage. Korvold player is still learning his deck so NBD, but Rielle player kept a lovely hand and Winota was able to just free farm them for Winota triggers and eventually lifegain. Soooooo lovely to have your entire game sidelined because noobs don’t know how to mulligan… (It’s two newer players and Winota and I have been teaching them cEDH because they both desperately want to be doing the broken things, just pointing out that playing against fully tuned cEDH lists with new players is just as clunky, slow, and random as regular casual commander at times)
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Jun 25, 2021 18:03
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PleasantKenobi says fetchlands are getting printed in Adventures in the Forgotten Realms, but I'm not seeing that anywhere else. Anyone have a link ?
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Jun 25, 2021 20:00
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