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I fully believe that the marketing is bad but I also believe that the show will be bad too.
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Jun 25, 2021 18:31
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Covok posted:Yeah, it looks terrible. I have no plans to watch it. Frankly feels like we get this cartoon regutiated every few years. I've posted something like this before, but back in the 80s/90s/etc shows would sometimes do "special episode" that focused on discrimination. Some minority character would show up on the show, get discriminated against and then be defended by the show's main characters. Then the discriminated character would vanish off the face of the earth, never to be seen or mentioned again. And the minority character would inevitably be:' "Hi, I'm Randy, an African-American Negro who is Black." "Cool, I'm Steve, a gay homosexual who likes to have sex with other men." "Great, I'm Aisha, an Islamic Muslim who follows the teachings of Mohammad." Basically, the thing that made them a minority was also the only aspect of their character. Q-Force seems like it's made up completely of "Steves."
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Jun 25, 2021 18:42
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I feel like this is going to be the new Big Mouth, right down to awful trailers giving a horrid first impression and an insanely divided public opinion after the fact.
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Jun 25, 2021 18:46
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Ghost Leviathan posted:To be fair, most have got like, two personality traits if you're lucky. (I used to watch the occasional marathon of old H-B cartoons on Boomerang, and it was so boring it was oddly compelling) Might as well save yourself the effort of filling out a supporting cast and just use the lot. I do think something is lost when you take the characters and just leave so much of their original premise and I guess their original supporting cast behind. Even though most of these shows' supporting casts are really heavily redundant with the same similar archetypes. Jabberjaw is probably the best example, because what's weird about his show isn't that he's a talking shark, that's extremely normal. What's weird was that all of humanity apparently lives underwater. I guess also the Hannah Barbera shows that I remember most strongly, that I first saw when I got cable and started watching Cartoon Network, they don't really seem to be part of the group that they use in their "all-star" get-togethers.
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Jun 25, 2021 19:26
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SlothfulCobra posted:Hannah Barbera has too many characters, so they can't just turn the faucet on a little. You can't get just a few, you have to get all of them at once. Ghost Leviathan posted:To be fair, most have got like, two personality traits if you're lucky. (I used to watch the occasional marathon of old H-B cartoons on Boomerang, and it was so boring it was oddly compelling) Might as well save yourself the effort of filling out a supporting cast and just use the lot. SlothfulCobra posted:I do think something is lost when you take the characters and just leave so much of their original premise and I guess their original supporting cast behind. Even though most of these shows' supporting casts are really heavily redundant with the same similar archetypes. Jabberjaw is probably the best example, because what's weird about his show isn't that he's a talking shark, that's extremely normal. What's weird was that all of humanity apparently lives underwater. I feel like when it comes to Hannah-Barbera(I'm going to cheat a little and count Ruby-Spears as part of this cause it was founded by former H-B employees, had a similar style in its shows, and ended up getting bought and merged back into H-B anyways) people definitely are too willing to just call their stuff crap, when the truth is definitely more complicated, overall I feel their output can be placed into four rough categories; The Good Shows: the cream of the crop for H-B, shows that are legitimately good in their own right and still generally hold up in the modern day(well if you can ignore or tolerate the occasional bit of racial insensitivity and/or sexism in the oldest stuff here), shows like Johnny Quest, The Flintstones, Scooby-Doo Where Are You!, Thundarr The Barbarian, SWAT KATS, and most of the early Cartoon Network Originals* fall here The Fun Shows: the show's that while often having some noticeable flaws can still be quite enjoyable if you're in the mood to just turn your brain off and watch some cartoons on your couch with a bunch of snacks like you're a kid again, stuff like The Jetsons, Yogi Bear, Jabberjaw, and much of the "genre" output of H-B(stuff like Birdman, Space Ghost, and The Herculoids) goes here The Meh Shows: where most of H-B's output lies, it's less that these shows are particularly bad for the most part it's just that compared to either the theatrical shorts of the Golden Age or more modern TV shows that began emerging in the 80's through today, these shows just come off as a bit dull, there's still usually some charm to these shows though, this is where many of the Funny Animal shows and the many Flintstones and Scooby-Doo clones end up The Bad Shows: not as many of these as you'd think really, this is where the truly awful entries go, stuff like Yo Yogi or those seasons of Scooby-Doo where it was just Scooby, Shaggy, and Scrappy(but not the "Red Shirt Shaggy" movies those are generally in the Fun category cause they had finally figured out how to make Scrappy somewhat work as a character by then), anything that ends up here you should only watch to make fun of, even then it is probably going to be a painful time *one could make a solid argument that H-B never really died, it just ended up morphing into the current WB Animation Studios, Cartoon Network Studios(heck they recently rebranded their European studio into using the Hannah-Barbera name), and William Street Productions
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Jun 25, 2021 20:57
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And then there's the fifth category, which defies all attempts by human minds to describe it, where Where's Huddles inhabits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ky18J1bB4 Paul Lynne's entire career was basically "slumming it for a paycheck" and by god I can't fault the man for it.
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Jun 25, 2021 21:43
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Funky Valentine posted:And then there's the fifth category, which defies all attempts by human minds to describe it, where Where's Huddles inhabits. I think I found the other thing that inhabits this category https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Jv8zbUsf4
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Jun 25, 2021 21:51
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Funky Valentine posted:And then there's the fifth category, which defies all attempts by human minds to describe it, where Where's Huddles inhabits. it's so weird to not be the person posting where's huddles for once in my life
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Jun 25, 2021 22:00
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drrockso20 posted:I feel like when it comes to Hannah-Barbera(I'm going to cheat a little and count Ruby-Spears as part of this cause it was founded by former H-B employees, had a similar style in its shows, and ended up getting bought and merged back into H-B anyways) people definitely are too willing to just call their stuff crap, when the truth is definitely more complicated, overall I feel their output can be placed into four rough categories; This is a pretty good summary, really. I'm not the biggest H-B fan (I preferred other studios active in the 1960s), but yeah, their reputation for making crap is overblown. Funky Valentine posted:And then there's the fifth category, which defies all attempts by human minds to describe it, where Where's Huddles inhabits. Say what you will about H-B, they tried to keep prime-time animation going in the 1970s, despite never getting the Flintstones glory. There was "Wait Till Your Father Gets Home", too, which was H-B's All in the Family ripoff. I would argue that the "Charlie Chan" cartoon falls into this category. My god, that show....
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Jun 25, 2021 22:11
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edit: nm, wrong thread
galenanorth fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 22:15
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E: replied to post that got deleted
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Jun 25, 2021 22:18
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I remember one cartoon about a detective dog in a canine city that I used to watch where he'd keep getting into conversations with his animator. That's all I remember about it though.
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Jun 25, 2021 22:18
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Dog City I think?
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Jun 25, 2021 22:31
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I might see if I can find it online, see if it held up at all.
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Jun 25, 2021 22:33
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I wanna say one thing about Jellystone: It makes perfect sense to rework Jabberjaw because the Curly impression is wholly irrelevant now.
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Jun 25, 2021 22:44
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drrockso20 posted:shows like Johnny Quest, The I remember catching reruns of the 60s version of that show in the 80s and kind of loving it because people loving died on that show. There was none of that "parachuting out at the last second" bullshit from GIJOE.
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Jun 25, 2021 23:10
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I Am Fowl posted:I wanna say one thing about Jellystone: It makes perfect sense to rework Jabberjaw because the Curly impression is wholly irrelevant now. It wasn't even that good of a Curly impression, the one voice Frank Welker can't really do to the standards of everything else he can do.
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Jun 25, 2021 23:11
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I wonder how they're going to work the characters. Greenblatt is apparently a huge HB fan and I hope he can express that through this show like Angones and his team did for the Ducktales reboot, give me those HB deep cuts.
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Jun 25, 2021 23:25
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Everyone posted:I remember catching reruns of the 60s version of that show in the 80s and kind of loving it because people loving died on that show. There was none of that "parachuting out at the last second" bullshit from GIJOE. I wonder if the reason Jonny Quest got away with it was because it aired on prime-time originally, meaning no Saturday Morning restrictions.
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Jun 26, 2021 00:04
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The big issue with looking back at Hannah Barbera cartoons is that most of their big hits were made for TV in the 60s and 70s with cheaper production standards and plots written with dated references (not just the specific references either, a lot about the world has changed in 50 years). It's also pretty hard to figure out what was made when, because over time they took an active interest in repackaging old shows to look newer, even slicing them up and putting them together differently. Or creating new shows with very old characters doing old, repeated jokes. Or even padding out new stuff by cutting it with old stuff even if the combination didn't make any sense. I think even there's an aspect of the repackaged shows being marketed towards kids while the original shorts were for broader or even adult audiences. And then by the time the 80s rolled around, the company had lost a lot of steam, and after the big TV animation boom, it started creating a lot of actual garbage to try to connect with the new generation and it couldn't really keep up with all the other stuff on TV with higher budgets and higher standards. It was neat seeing all these shows for the first time on Cartoon Network, but it's easy for me to imagine audiences back in the day getting tired of the repetition. Or new audiences just not understanding the team-up stuff if they weren't around for the original source material.
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Jun 26, 2021 00:12
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amigolupus posted:Finally caught up to the thread again. I haven't found time to watch Amphibia or Owl House yet, but it's great to hear that it's bound to be a good time, and how Owl House is pretty cute and queer. I look forward to re-reading this thread and those spoiler bars. I'm hoping this is just a case of the trailer being awful, but the impression I get of this show is that it's like Rick and Steve but with absolutely no self-awareness. Mister Beeg posted:I wonder if the reason Jonny Quest got away with it was because it aired on prime-time originally, meaning no Saturday Morning restrictions. Man, that just reminds me of The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest from the mid 90s. While the show largely doesn't hold up very well (It leaned far too heavily into the 90s media obsession with "cyberspace" and features some really bad cgi all over the place) it was also weirdly hardcore about character death and the like. I remember nerve gas being a recurring element in various villains plots...
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Jun 26, 2021 00:16
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I think it was an industry standard to shy away from serialized story telling lest someone miss an episode and become lost.
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Jun 26, 2021 00:20
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KingKalamari posted:I'm hoping this is just a case of the trailer being awful, but the impression I get of this show is that it's like Rick and Steve but with absolutely no self-awareness. I had a childhood fear of nerve gas because of how often that loving show used it to kill people
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Jun 26, 2021 00:25
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Mister Beeg posted:I wonder if the reason Jonny Quest got away with it was because it aired on prime-time originally, meaning no Saturday Morning restrictions. That's the thing it and Space Ghost(which was also rather violent) didn't get away with it, both received a lot of backlash from parents groups, which is why the violence in most TV animation in the West is so neutered between the late 60's to early 90's(unless it's super cartoony slapstick), studios and networks were afraid of getting similar backlash(meanwhile that kind of thing never really happened with children's media over in Europe or Japan*) and why neither DC or Marvel really get anything resembling an actually good cartoon until such restrictions loosen up in the 90's *which leads to situations like Voltron coming across as fairly tame but only because they had to do a ton of editing because the original series Go-Lion is ridiculously violent even by TV Anime standards of the time SlothfulCobra posted:The big issue with looking back at Hannah Barbera cartoons is that most of their big hits were made for TV in the 60s and 70s with cheaper production standards and plots written with dated references (not just the specific references either, a lot about the world has changed in 50 years). It's also pretty hard to figure out what was made when, because over time they took an active interest in repackaging old shows to look newer, even slicing them up and putting them together differently. Or creating new shows with very old characters doing old, repeated jokes. Or even padding out new stuff by cutting it with old stuff even if the combination didn't make any sense. I think even there's an aspect of the repackaged shows being marketed towards kids while the original shorts were for broader or even adult audiences. Very true, though it does result in a lot of their shows being quite fascinating even if a lot of them are mediocre
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Jun 26, 2021 00:32
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amigolupus posted:Finally caught up to the thread again. I haven't found time to watch Amphibia or Owl House yet, but it's great to hear that it's bound to be a good time, and how Owl House is pretty cute and queer. I look forward to re-reading this thread and those spoiler bars. One thing I appreciate is that Amphibia and The Owl House give representation to less represented characters Thai/Asian for Amphibia and Bi (along with Latinx) for The Owl House. But they don't do it at the expense of making the representation the entire character. Even if Anne and Luz had been straight white boys named Andy and Louis, they'd still be interesting characters. The fact that Luz is Latinx and bi and a gender nonconforming girl deepens and flavors her already fun, interesting character with additional layers and a similar thing is true for Anne.
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Jun 26, 2021 02:30
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Mraagvpeine posted:I think it was an industry standard to shy away from serialized story telling lest someone miss an episode and become lost. I think it still is to an extent, it's why even a lot of serialized shows these days tend to have first seasons full of one-offs to almost sneak in the greater plot aspects. Stuff like... well, basically every comedy with a running background plot since Adventure Time* all the way up to Owl House today. *Ironically I don't know if AT really fits this trend of intentionally doing one-offs since it's only after Pen Ward left(/took a backseat role) that the show became super-serialized
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Jun 26, 2021 02:47
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I don't know how much is the show needing to find its feet in less narrative one-off episodes, or how much is the network not just being ambivalent about shows at the start, or how much is just that's the rhythm and balance the show wants to set for itself. There's probably a lot of different lines of reasoning in the mix. I don't think most shows really ditch one-off episodes even after they get their narrative rolling though, since they've already set the standard for themselves. It's interesting though that ongoing plot shows no longer feel the need to do a recap though. Rocky and Bullwinkle would sometimes use the recap to pad out entire segments where basically nothing happens but repeating previous jokes and throwing out a meaningless cliffhanger for the next segment to pick up. I Am Fowl posted:I wanna say one thing about Jellystone: It makes perfect sense to rework Jabberjaw because the Curly impression is wholly irrelevant now. I don't think Jabberjaw was so much a reference that audiences were expected to get or not, and it was more of a case of a voice actor just stealing a famous person's voice and mannerisms to make a character. It's an easy shortcut. I feel like there's a lot of cartoon characters like that who are sort of references but end up just stealing somebody's bit. Not like kids generally get a lot of references anyways. Animaniacs came out 5 years after Orson Welles died, but they still made Brain. But also somebody does need to sound like Curly when Curly isn't here.
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Jun 26, 2021 04:40
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SlothfulCobra posted:I don't know how much is the show needing to find its feet in less narrative one-off episodes, or how much is the network not just being ambivalent about shows at the start, or how much is just that's the rhythm and balance the show wants to set for itself. There's probably a lot of different lines of reasoning in the mix. I don't think most shows really ditch one-off episodes even after they get their narrative rolling though, since they've already set the standard for themselves. Part of it might be that old episodes are so much more accessible now, and that viewing habits have changed enough that viewers would expect to have to be caught up. Also the people making tv now take it more seriously and don’t want to make things that look like cheap garbage. It wasn’t just old tv, either. I’m reading old Spiderman comics, and every so often, there will be an issue where Spiderman takes some time to re-tell his origin story and introduce his supporting cast and villains to the readers. Sometimes there’s a frame story that makes it seem kind of natural, and sometimes he’s just addressing the reader directly. I guess the idea is that every few years the old kids have grown up and stopped reading and you need to get the new kids who have come along up to speed.
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Jun 26, 2021 04:49
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SlothfulCobra posted:
"Okay, maybe my dad did steal Itchy. But so what? Animation is built on plagiarism. If it weren’t for someone plagiarizing The Honeymooners we wouldn’t have The Flintstones. If someone hadn’t ripped off Sergeant Bilko, there’d be no Top Cat. Huckleberry Hound, Chief Wiggum, Yogi Bear, hah! Andy Griffith, Edward G. Robinson, Art Carney. Your Honor, you take away our right to steal ideas, where are they gonna come from?"
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Jun 26, 2021 04:51
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Jaxts posted:Dog City I think? Yup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTuUQ51NA6A
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Jun 26, 2021 05:03
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Part of it might be that old episodes are so much more accessible now, and that viewing habits have changed enough that viewers would expect to have to be caught up. Also the people making tv now take it more seriously and don’t want to make things that look like cheap garbage. It's pretty similar with a lot of other kids media and stuff aimed at, in theory, a fleeting demographic. The Pokemon anime comes to mind, and most stuff like say, Arthur. After three years, you're not supposed to be watching it anymore unless you're a weirdo, that's why they start recycling scripts and doing the same character arcs again.
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Jun 26, 2021 05:20
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The reason they keep retelling origin stories in Marvel comics back in the day is that Jim Shooter, editor in chief, had a rule that said any comic could be someone's first so every relevant element for the plot needed to be established and reestablished in each issue.
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Jun 26, 2021 06:07
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KingKalamari posted:I'm hoping this is just a case of the trailer being awful, but the impression I get of this show is that it's like Rick and Steve but with absolutely no self-awareness. Someone posted the blurbs for the cast and it doesn't inspire any confidence: Teddybear posted:Let's take a peek at the cast and characters Everyone posted:Q-Force seems like it's made up completely of "Steves." Did you help them come up with the name for the main character? It's okay, I won't judge.  That said, what's absurd is that despite the name Q-Force, they're not a superhero team with LGBTQ+ members. Instead, they're a squad (priding themselves as the first queer team  ) within the not-CIA. They might as well say they're doing a cartoon about heroic cops.
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Jun 26, 2021 06:25
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I've started watching Dog City online, it's aged surprisingly well. It's got some really fun jokes revolving around the animator and the detective's relationship, and the fact that Ace is the only one who is aware that the animator exists, like when the first epsiode ends with a Deus Ex Machina (because the animator got carried away and forgot to give Ace a way out of the situation he was in and dropped the safe too early) this exchange happens between Ace and his Client: Client: "What a stroke of luck" Ace: "Luck? Ace Heart doesn't know the meaning of the word. giant girder slams down an inch behind them Miracle, godsent, blessing, THOSE I know..." There's also some fun surprise resolutions to some adventures, like one guy in episode 2 who has such bad luck with faulty screws that a lifetime of accidents drives him completely insane - the situation resolves with a similar situation revolving around Ace and some phones he keeps just missing throughout the episode driving ACE to near Madness, giving Screwy Louie (which is what the media dubs the crazy guy) perspective as he talks ACE back from the precipice, calming himself down too, at least enough to allow himself to be taken to somewhere he can get help for his obsession. That episode also has a cute thing where they do the whole "Ace marking the locations of the crime spree on a map to see where Screwy louie will strike next" bit, but literally every other character in the show has done the exact same thing and figured out where he'll strike too. It makes sense that it's actually good, it's a Jim Henson show. The animator is a large dog muppet, kind of bridging the gap between the real and the cartoon (Real World audience watching, Live Action Dog puppets making the cartoon and having their own subplots, and the cartoon itself).
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Jun 26, 2021 06:27
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The first version of Dog City is actually a live-action pilot with muppets that ran on the Jim Henson Hour. I think the Ace puppet became the animator character for the series.
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Jun 26, 2021 06:32
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And I mixed that up myself with Dog Tracer. Catchy music in that one.
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Jun 26, 2021 06:43
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SlothfulCobra posted:But also somebody does need to sound like Curly when Curly isn't here. Catchy ska tune aside, this implies that Curly is always present, if unseen, in the Jellystone show.
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Jun 26, 2021 06:57
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Gargoyles basically turned recaps into an art form, and a lot of what it did probably wouldn't have worked as well without them, particularly since later on in the show sometimes elements from like 6 different prior episodes could come up all at once
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Jun 26, 2021 06:59
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I know this isn’t the more famous funny one, but this is a very accurate recreation of every Previously, On X-Men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP4NF62DA3o
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Jun 26, 2021 07:03
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Also nobody had invented wikis yet in 1994 so if you missed an episode or forgot a plot point you had to pray for reruns or bribe the one other kid at school who watched Gargoyles.
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Jun 26, 2021 07:07
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