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People really shouldn't be getting their hopes up about Sylvie. That just seems like a recipe for disaster.
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Jun 27, 2021 00:03
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kazil posted:What if Sylvie is just a different person? Like she had the title of Loki but wasn't actually the Asgardian Loki? Then she wouldn't be a variant.
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Jun 27, 2021 00:06
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Arist posted:People really shouldn't be getting their hopes up about Sylvie. That just seems like a recipe for disaster. Remember when Wandavision was 110% absolutely a set-up for the MCU X-Men and it was just a matter of when, not if? Remember when Falcon and the Winter Soldier was 110% absolutely a set-up for the MCU Thunderbolts and it was just a matter of when, not if? Fans are gonna fan. But this time I think it could actually end up hurting some feelings if the TQ+ supportive community gets hung up on hoping this'll be the big mainstream breakthrough on queer superheroes and genderfluid/trans representation. There's really nothing to suggest Marvel Studios or Disney would be that bold that quickly, even though yes it would be nice if they did.
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Jun 27, 2021 00:11
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tsob posted:Then she wouldn't be a variant. But not all variants are Loki.
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Jun 27, 2021 00:23
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mind the walrus posted:But this time I think it could actually end up hurting some feelings if the TQ+ supportive community gets hung up on hoping this'll be the big mainstream breakthrough on queer superheroes and genderfluid/trans representation. There's really nothing to suggest Marvel Studios or Disney would be that bold that quickly, even though yes it would be nice if they did. Wait...it's been shortened to TQ+? Goddamit, I need some kind of zillenial cultural sherpa...
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Jun 27, 2021 00:25
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kazil posted:But not all variants are Loki. All the Loki variants are variants of Loki though, and she was explicitly referred to by Mobius as a Loki variant.
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Jun 27, 2021 00:31
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People keep saying "female Loki" and mentioning trans issues. This isn't the case here. Tom H's Loki is a genderfluid Loki. Sylvie is also a genderfluid Loki. Trans issues and rights are very important, but please don't forget about the enbies!
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Jun 27, 2021 00:48
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tsob posted:All the Loki variants are variants of Loki though, and she was explicitly referred to by Mobius as a Loki variant. Can there be beings that are not biological variants of Loki, but analogues of Loki in their timelines? Say, the Hiddleston Loki is never born in a timeline, but another being arises to fill that niche or void? I know they aren't drawing inspiration for the old X-iles comic, but that happened a few times in those story arcs.
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Jun 27, 2021 00:51
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Marsupial Ape posted:Wait...it's been shortened to TQ+? Goddamit, I need some kind of zillenial cultural sherpa... And that's left people in the Bi/Trans/Queer/NB/etc. understandably eager to try and make up for the social gains made by the more monetizable gay/lesbian side of their community faster than corporations are ever going to be realistically comfortable with. It can't all be Steven Universe, y'know? It breaks your heart a bit because a lot of these people are just kids trying to figure it out and still believing in the Western "narrative of eternal progress" pushed by Baby Boomers. It's going to suck to see them hit the wall of "We like your money, but we're not on your side. You'll get what you get when we say it's monetizable enough to do so." that every marginalized group eventually has to confront vis a vis media representation in the Capitalist system.
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Jun 27, 2021 00:52
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I...I was kinda just making fun of myself for finally becoming an old man.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:02
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Marsupial Ape posted:Can there be beings that are not biological variants of Loki, but analogues of Loki in their timelines? Say, the Hiddleston Loki is never born in a timeline, but another being arises to fill that niche or void? I know they aren't drawing inspiration for the old X-iles comic, but that happened a few times in those story arcs. Not via the rules as established, no. Such a person would be a variant of some other person calling themselves Loki as a title. Or having been called that in the past, at least. Not a variant of Loki.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:05
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tsob posted:Not via the rules as established, no. Such a person would be a variant of some other person calling themselves Loki as a title. Or having been called that in the past, at least. Not a variant of Loki. So by your conention, a Loki whose Asgard has been destroyed when they were very young perhaps is not a Loki variant, even if Owen Wilson says they are?
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Jun 27, 2021 01:16
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Cage Kicker posted:So by your conention, a Loki whose Asgard has been destroyed when they were very young perhaps is not a Loki variant, even if Owen Wilson says they are? No? I have literally no idea how you arrived at that contention. Sylvie was born Loki, whether that was Loki Laufeyson, or Loki Loufeydotter, it was as Loki. She has refused that name over the years for some reason, but she was still a being called Loki as a name at birth, and not as a title. Which is all the TVA cares about.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:21
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tsob posted:No? I have literally no idea how you arrived at that contention. Sylvie was born Loki, whether that was Loki Laufeyson, or Loki Loufeydotter, it was as Loki. She has refused that name over the years for some reason, but she was still a being called Loki as a name at birth, and not as a title. Which is all the TVA cares about. I don't know what to believe. The comics have a Sylvie that quite clearly isn't Loki or even Asgardian. When called "Loki" she says don't call me that. Has different powers than Loki. There's the easter egg calling her Loki Laufeydottir but the TVA haven't been known as a reliable narrator.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:36
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Her TVA form named her as Sylvie as well.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:39
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Hawkperson posted:Additionally I don't really know if any trans people are writing for Loki but it really doesn't seem like it, so any attempt at an overtly trans storyline would probably suuuuuuuuuuck. I'm guessing that it ends up being a glaring missed opportunity with maybe some sort of throwaway line about how Sylvie just found her female body to be her fave. Actually, do we know if Sylvie is actually capable of shapeshifting like Loki is? I don't think that Loki (in terms of the Marvel character played by Tom Hiddleston) actually does shapeshift. He just does various kinds of illusions. What Sophie does seems a little closer to shape-shifting because she "inhabits" (or at least controls) others' minds and bodies via enchantment. Neither of them do the Norse mythology thing in which Loki turns into a female horse, fucks the stallion, Svaðilfari, gets pregnant and births a horse with eight legs.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:40
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kazil posted:I don't know what to believe. The comics have a Sylvie that quite clearly isn't Loki or even Asgardian. When called "Loki" she says don't call me that. Has different powers than Loki. There's the easter egg calling her Loki Laufeydottir but the TVA haven't been known as a reliable narrator. The TVA are not reliable as a source about themselves, but we haven't been given any reason to doubt their information on variants. The only reason to suppose that Sylvie isn't a variant of Loki by birth is because they made a mistake, which would be a hell of a mistake and kind of a silly twist to hang her character on after introducing her as the only other real variant Loki interacts with during the show.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:42
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tsob posted:The TVA are not reliable as a source about themselves, but we haven't been given any reason to doubt their information on variants. The only reason to suppose that Sylvie isn't a variant of Loki by birth is because they made a mistake, which would be a hell of a mistake and kind of a silly twist to hang her character on after introducing her as the only other real variant Loki interacts with during the show. As was pointed out, she was listed as Sylvie Laufeydottir by the TSA. By that logic, she isn't Loki. A sister perhaps?
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Jun 27, 2021 01:43
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kazil posted:As was pointed out, she was listed as Sylvie Laufeydottir by the TSA. By that logic, she isn't Loki. We don't know, but we'll probably find out Wednesday.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:47
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Hawkperson posted:Additionally I don't really know if any trans people are writing for Loki but it really doesn't seem like it, so any attempt at an overtly trans storyline would probably suuuuuuuuuuck. I'm guessing that it ends up being a glaring missed opportunity with maybe some sort of throwaway line about how Sylvie just found her female body to be her fave. Actually, do we know if Sylvie is actually capable of shapeshifting like Loki is? If all we get is "some sort of line about how Sylvie just found her female body to be her fave", that's actually... pretty fine?? It doesn't need to be some huge dramatic story. Just letting a character that feels more comfortable as a woman be a woman is a win! People are constantly asking me, "why is your hair like this, why are you wearing this, why do you act/talk like this", etc etc. As if there needs to be some kind of special reason, more than what cis people have for how they look. But trans & nonbinary people aren't obligated to have any kind of special reason to exist. Letting the show say "if Sylvie is who this person wants to be, then that's who they are, it's not a costume or a trick or a trap or a lie or immoral or impossible or foolish" is plenty and they've already done that. Umbra Dubium posted:People keep saying "female Loki" and mentioning trans issues. I guess that depends on what you think "trans" means. Everyone I know today goes off the idea that transgender is defined as "not identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth". https://gender.wikia.org/wiki/Transgender There are some people here and there that don't like that but every non binary community I'm part of and every fellow non binary individual I know goes by that definition. When you define it that way it becomes a pretty inclusive umbrella term. I like it because it brings together everyone who says "I'm not the gender society wants me to be and I don't have to be". Variants. "G`ender variant" is literally a historical term for gender noncomforming people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_variance Sure, it may be a coincidence but all this talk about representation isn't me getting my hopes up (for what?) it's me being a fan of what they've already done.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:52
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kazil posted:As was pointed out, she was listed as Sylvie Laufeydottir by the TSA. By that logic, she isn't Loki. Sylvie is also her name by her own decision, so that may just be the TVA respecting her identification. She's still listed as a Frost Giant/Asgardian and biological child of Laufey, which the Sylvie/Enchantress in the comics is not going by what I've heard of her. Mobius has still described her as a variant of Loki, and variants are described as being versions of "you" that did something different. Not beings who use your name as a title or anything. Unless Mobius is outright wrong in some fashion, then she was a being born to the Frost Giant Laufey and named Loki but who decided to identify differently at some point in the past; not someone who was given the title Loki.
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Jun 27, 2021 02:17
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Everyone posted:We don't know, but we'll probably find out Wednesday. Haven't we already found this out?   It really isn't that complicated. She was Loki, and now she isn't.
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Jun 27, 2021 02:20
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Yes, which is why the TVA listing her as Sylvie and female is cool, but continuing to refer to her as a variant Loki is gross, because their entire system is grossly reductive about the lived experience of individuals. All it cares about is the way things “should be”. Like being told about being a Frost Giant is not how things should be, the fact that said Loki went on to no longer even refer to themselves as Loki is probably just a bigger variance poo poo-storm for the TVA. She literally does not want to be Loki anymore (even if she remembers her time as Loki with a mix of fondness and nostalgia for the family that the TVA likely stripped from her as a child).
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Jun 27, 2021 02:25
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XboxPants posted:If all we get is "some sort of line about how Sylvie just found her female body to be her fave", that's actually... pretty fine?? It doesn't need to be some huge dramatic story. Just letting a character that feels more comfortable as a woman be a woman is a win! People are constantly asking me, "why is your hair like this, why are you wearing this, why do you act/talk like this", etc etc. As if there needs to be some kind of special reason, more than what cis people have for how they look. But trans & nonbinary people aren't obligated to have any kind of special reason to exist. Letting the show say "if Sylvie is who this person wants to be, then that's who they are, it's not a costume or a trick or a trap or a lie or immoral or impossible or foolish" is plenty and they've already done that. That's pretty much where I am as well (confession: Straight White CiS-gender male). Even if it turns out that Sylvie was born female and mostly identifies as a female, doesn't the idea that the TVA rejects her as a Variant due to her gender have some congruence with trans issues? The idea that the TVA wants to kill/prune Sylvie because she was born the "wrong" gender doesn't resonate even a little bit with the trans community - even if she isn't, strictly speaking, trans?
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Jun 27, 2021 02:27
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Even if Sylvie is not trans (which is plausible, but unlikely given the history she presents and what we know of the TVA) she is definitely trans-adjacent yes. Especially given the little bit about not calling her Loki is kind of about not dead-naming her. Which calling her a Variant Loki is doing, so big shock the time cops are not great about actually respecting Sylvie even if they seem to do so on her files.
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Jun 27, 2021 02:31
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Everyone posted:That's pretty much where I am as well (confession: Straight White CiS-gender male). Even if it turns out that Sylvie was born female and mostly identifies as a female, doesn't the idea that the TVA rejects her as a Variant due to her gender have some congruence with trans issues? The idea that the TVA wants to kill/prune Sylvie because she was born the "wrong" gender doesn't resonate even a little bit with the trans community - even if she isn't, strictly speaking, trans? We don't actually know that the TVA views her gender as the reason for pruning her though. It may be the fact her parents told her about the fact she's an orphan as a child is what caused the split, given that's something the show has brought up already, and not her gender. We'll probably find out in the next episode, especially given the recent interview with the actress where we got a shot of child Sylvie being brought to the TVA. So I wouldn't be holding onto the idea that her past is trans-adjacent in that way just yet either, since it may not actually be despite people assuming it.
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Jun 27, 2021 02:35
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I'm sure whatever it is will be good, but yeah temper your expectations. Don't expect anything transcendent-- no pun intended.
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Jun 27, 2021 03:11
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tsob posted:We don't actually know that the TVA views her gender as the reason for pruning her though. It may be the fact her parents told her about the fact she's an orphan as a child is what caused the split, given that's something the show has brought up already, and not her gender. We'll probably find out in the next episode, especially given the recent interview with the actress where we got a shot of child Sylvie being brought to the TVA. So I wouldn't be holding onto the idea that her past is trans-adjacent in that way just yet either, since it may not actually be despite people assuming it. Granted we don't and hopefully it'll get cleared up Wednesday. Basically my take on it is that the TVA enforces (and prunes deviations from) the Sacred Timeline. In the Sacred Timeline, Loki presented as male - specifically as Thor's brother. So, I figure that Sylvie being female would be unacceptable to the TVA.
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Jun 27, 2021 03:21
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I just don't see how that can be the source of variance when Mobius shows us Loki's that look so different from our Loki, such as Frost Giant Loki. They should not exist for more than a few minutes as babies if the superficial difference is what causes variation, and not long enough to grow to adulthood.
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Jun 27, 2021 03:30
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tsob posted:I just don't see how that can be the source of variance when Mobius shows us Loki's that look so different from our Loki, such as Frost Giant Loki. They should not exist for more than a few minutes as babies if the superficial difference is what causes variation, and not long enough to grow to adulthood. Frost giant Loki might have chosen to handle his discovery in the original Thor movie differently by deciding to become a Frost Giant full time and abandon Asgard and learn his true people’s lives. I imagine Möbius is showing Loki the variants is what they looked like when the TVA caught up to them, not that they lived their entire lives with variance.
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Jun 27, 2021 04:10
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Lord_Magmar posted:Frost giant Loki might have chosen to handle his discovery in the original Thor movie differently by deciding to become a Frost Giant full time and abandon Asgard and learn his true people’s lives. I imagine Möbius is showing Loki the variants is what they looked like when the TVA caught up to them, not that they lived their entire lives with variance. Correct!! It takes the TVA like, I dunno, let's pretend 5 minutes to get in the door and arrest a variant as soon as the alarm goes off. They don't wait years, they got a short window of time by the moment a person takes a decision that diverts from the Sacred Timeline. Anyways, I rewatched Thor out of nostalgia and lmao. I knew they used a lot of dutch angles but drat...that was just too much! Tom was extremely skinny, and looked as he is always about to cry, Loki is just played really serious. Surprisingly Tom Hiddleston is already pouring charisma, so it's good they changed the way the character is written in later movies and made use of it. I hope Taika manages to make Natalie Portman shine, it was a total waste of talent. Chris Hemsworth with dyed blonde eyebrows never stops to be funny. Edit: Oh and the music was terrible. We were blessed with the score of Thor Ragnarok and now Loki. Desperado Bones fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 04:37
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Arist posted:People really shouldn't be getting their hopes up about Sylvie. That just seems like a recipe for disaster. Sylvie is Mephisto
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Jun 27, 2021 05:25
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Everyone posted:I don't think that Loki (in terms of the Marvel character played by Tom Hiddleston) actually does shapeshift. He just does various kinds of illusions. What Sophie does seems a little closer to shape-shifting because she "inhabits" (or at least controls) others' minds and bodies via enchantment. Neither of them do the Norse mythology thing in which Loki turns into a female horse, fucks the stallion, Svaðilfari, gets pregnant and births a horse with eight legs. Loki's traditional schemings are a little more out there than the MCU's versions.
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Jun 27, 2021 05:47
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To be clear, he was forced to do that because the rest of the gods blamed him for it going bad. They promised a builder Freya, the sun, and the moon to build the walls of Asgard by himself in a certain time frame. He makes one request: To use his horse Svaðilfari to help him. Loki helps convince the gods to allow it. Because Svaðilfari is the greatest horse to live at that time, the builder is looking like he'll pull it off. This pisses the gods off, so they tell Loki it's his fault and he better fix it. So he turns into a girl horse and Svaðilfari gets big horned up and runs off to gently caress him. The actual punchline is that none of this matters, because the Aesir find out that the builder was a jotunn and decide that means the bet doesn't count, so Thor takes his hammer and bashes the guys loving head in. Then Loki gives birth to Sleipnir, the greatest of all horses, and Odin proceeds to use him as a mount. Aesir are right up there with the Olympians for fuckers that deserved everything that came to them.
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Jun 27, 2021 06:32
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Mulva posted:To be clear, he was forced to do that because the rest of the gods blamed him for it going bad. They promised a builder Freya, the sun, and the moon to build the walls of Asgard by himself in a certain time frame. He makes one request: To use his horse Svaðilfari to help him. Loki helps convince the gods to allow it. Because Svaðilfari is the greatest horse to live at that time, the builder is looking like he'll pull it off. This pisses the gods off, so they tell Loki it's his fault and he better fix it. Odin: Wise old leader who teaches tales of maturity and good? Naw, crazy old mage obsessed with knowledge that would be called the god of trickery if he hadn't foisted that on Loki.
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Jun 27, 2021 07:13
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Mulva posted:Aesir are right up there with the Olympians for fuckers that deserved everything that came to them. Every pantheon around the world has their own level of fuckery. *stares at Mayan and Aztec deities/heroes impregnating women without their consent * I see what you did you spitting semen skull head, same to you you weirdo hummingbird.
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Jun 27, 2021 07:20
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evilmiera posted:Odin: Wise old leader who teaches tales of maturity and good? Naw, crazy old mage obsessed with knowledge that would be called the god of trickery if he hadn't foisted that on Loki. And also in some really old myths there’s suggestions that Loki and Odin were the same deity, in the same way that Hades and Pluton are the same. Which later morphed into Odin and Loki being blood brothers.
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Jun 27, 2021 07:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:And also in some really old myths there’s suggestions that Loki and Odin were the same deity, in the same way that Hades and Pluton are the same. Which later morphed into Odin and Loki being blood brothers. Excellent observation. The ideas about ancient mythology and religions we have today are often based on very simplified and narratively fixed stories for the layman’s consumption. The actual deep-time origins of these myths and cults are murky and messy, the gods as we recognize them actually being mashups of tribal gods that got synchronized as those tribes became unified civilizations.
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Jun 27, 2021 08:29
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Marsupial Ape posted:Excellent observation. The ideas about ancient mythology and religions we have today are often based on very simplified and narratively fixed stories for the layman’s consumption. The actual deep-time origins of these myths and cults are murky and messy, the gods as we recognize them actually being mashups of tribal gods that got synchronized as those tribes became unified civilizations. Is it wrong that I kind of want of Deadpool to show up and start asking Loki stuff about the mythological Aesir? DP: "So, like why did you gently caress a horse and have that horse's baby or colt or whatever?" Loki: "uuuhhhhhh...."
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Jun 27, 2021 11:15
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Desperado Bones posted:Edit: Oh and the music was terrible. We were blessed with the score of Thor Ragnarok and now Loki. Get hosed, cloth ears, the main Thor/Yggdrasil theme was awesome and reused in Ragnarok.
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Jun 27, 2021 13:33
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