|
I'm just saying I don't think they do a very good job of conveying these themes through gameplay. Part of the reason people like 3025 is that the tabletop game is designed around four mechs fighting four other mechs, and 3025 has small battles like that as the default, rather than RCTs smashing into Galaxies. Naturally those same people don't want to admit it, but Dark Age is the same way. There aren't a lot of times in the game where "my lance fought this other lance" would be important and not something you are condescendingly patted on the head for while all eight Crucis Lancer RCTs drop on Tikonov, and I think design-wise, that's a mistake.
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 20:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 19:22 |
|
|
As someone who's come to enjoy all eras for what they are: It's still important to the people in that battle even if it's a drop in the bucket geopolitically. The setting is as expansive as it is so that you can fight a skirmish between House Kurita and Liao during the Clan invasion and not have it feel too incongruous, and at that level the battle being too small to be of real note would be a feature rather than a bug. I know plenty of people who play with nameless 3/4 pilots and have fun. That doesn't stop me from printing off sheets of miniature pilot cards with unique faces whenever may players run a mercenary campaign. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 20:10
|
|
|
Part of the "Meat is cheap, Mechs are Expensive" is that for a while there were a lot more dispossessed mechwarriors than there were new machines, but as mentioned that didn't last terribly long (The Clan invasion was less than half a decade after the start of the setting I believe?). Though again that only really mattered for ongoing campaigns anyways.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
girl dick energy posted:KerenskyRulez: the xXx_wolves_xXx clan have claimed this lane for our own! what casuals defend it? PrydeBae: The 420Falcons shall ownz you, freebirth newb! Defiance Industries posted:I'm just saying I don't think they do a very good job of conveying these themes through gameplay. Part of the reason people like 3025 is that the tabletop game is designed around four mechs fighting four other mechs, and 3025 has small battles like that as the default, rather than RCTs smashing into Galaxies. Naturally those same people don't want to admit it, but Dark Age is the same way. There aren't a lot of times in the game where "my lance fought this other lance" would be important and not something you are condescendingly patted on the head for while all eight Crucis Lancer RCTs drop on Tikonov, and I think design-wise, that's a mistake. I'm pretty sure most wargames by default assume you're playing out a small particular battle/skirmish in a larger front and your relatively tiny force has all their buddies just offscreen, as it were. I mean, how often does a historical game like Flames of War feature the entire army on the field at once rather than what would be a small portion of it? I don't know that the larger fluff of later eras makes lance on lance conflicts less "realistic", it's just the stakes of any one individual battle are reduced from "planet conquered or not".
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 20:20
|
|
|
So anyways after discovering the Helepolis and now needing to dig through the appropriate pdfs to find a way to make them not-crap, I have to say that I really appreciate the Banshee. Is there a connection between it and the Atlas? Both seem to be depicted with the skull head, but the Atlas seems to take center stage with the extra 5 tons. Am I missing something and what should I be reading to link the two (if at all)?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 20:37
|
|
|
DI is specifically alluding to how the core rules of BattleTech do not promote playing cautiously or defending your own forces, because the setting repeatedly mentions that this is something people do but isn't replicated in an average pickup game. It's hardly the first game to have a story and gameplay disconnect, and there are entire rulebook full of ways to add it to the tabletop game, so it comes off from this end as a lecture that not considering the wider material implications of any random pickup game (like, to use the example that started this, not caring about having ammo in the CT) is playing the game wrong. I doubt that's the actual intent here, to be clear, but it feels like it comes close!
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 20:37
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Is there a connection between it and the Atlas? Both seem to be depicted with the skull head, but the Atlas seems to take center stage with the extra 5 tons. Am I missing something and what should I be reading to link the two (if at all)? They were both designed by the Terran Hegemony, but several hundred years apart. That's about it. The Banshee is one of the oldest mech designs out there whereas the Atlas was designed during the Amaris coup. Strobe posted:DI is specifically alluding to how the core rules of BattleTech do not promote playing cautiously or defending your own forces, because the setting repeatedly mentions that this is something people do but isn't replicated in an average pickup game. Okay, I'll make my intention 100% clear for you then: I think not having this as a core element of the game's design is a failure by the designers and that stuff like CT ammo is an optimal design move in the default type of gameplay probably should have been rethought if they wanted to have a game that was about how armies are finite things. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jun 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
It rapidly becomes non-optimal again at least, but that's a much clearer point that I'm much closer to agreeing with, so granted.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 21:05
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:So anyways after discovering the Helepolis and now needing to dig through the appropriate pdfs to find a way to make them not-crap, I have to say that I really appreciate the Banshee. There's no specific connection. The BNC-1E Banshee was the fifth 'mech ever produced, built in 2445, six years after the Mackie debuted. It was designed for the Terran Hegemony by one of the companies that worked on the Mackie, specifically as an improvement over its predecessor. It had fully-articulated arms intended for punching because Mackie pilots kept ruining their gun barrels in close combat. It is otherwise very similar to the Mackie but also has more armor, another ton of ammo, and slightly more close-in firepower, swapping the large laser for two mediums and a small. The Atlas lore makes no specific mention to the Banshee. It was designed to Aleksandr Kerensky's specifications and was intended to be the baddest-rear end thing on the battlefield. It debuted in 2755 (280 years after the upgraded BNC-3E Banshee!), originally for the SLDF. The lore for the original Mackie and Banshee are found in XTRO Primitives volumes I and II, respectively. The Atlas lore can be found in TRO 3025/3039/Succession Wars (whichever you have easiest access to.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 21:49
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Okay, I'll make my intention 100% clear for you then: I think not having this as a core element of the game's design is a failure by the designers and that stuff like CT ammo is an optimal design move in the default type of gameplay probably should have been rethought if they wanted to have a game that was about how armies are finite things. Edit: Many people in-universe still believe 'Mechs are worth more than lives, don't they? So it's not even totally inaccurate. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jun 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 23:50
|
|
|
BattleMaster posted:There's no specific connection. The BNC-1E Banshee was the fifth 'mech ever produced, built in 2445, six years after the Mackie debuted. It was designed for the Terran Hegemony by one of the companies that worked on the Mackie, specifically as an improvement over its predecessor. It had fully-articulated arms intended for punching because Mackie pilots kept ruining their gun barrels in close combat. It is otherwise very similar to the Mackie but also has more armor, another ton of ammo, and slightly more close-in firepower, swapping the large laser for two mediums and a small. Already bought all the Primitives, have a few others, and come on, how is this NOT great?  Bleh!!!
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 23:54
|
|
|
girl dick energy posted:You're really, really invested in this game having one decades old setting-inaccurate tagline. Do you get like this about not being able to Catch 'Em All any more? Yeah I think that the concepts of a game universe should be reflected in their rules. In fact I consider it the cornerstone of game design. Sorry.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 01:51
|
|
|
Is there a battle mat that anyone can link that is good for Battletech space ships? Or just a space mat with hexagons that are sized for battletech?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 04:03
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Yeah I think that the concepts of a game universe should be reflected in their rules. In fact I consider it the cornerstone of game design. Sorry.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 04:08
|
|
|
girl dick energy posted:Or maybe, hot take, the focus should be on making a fun game, and the universe should exist in service of that? Just an idea. I think having evocative mechanics are the wellspring of fun. A fun game is one that makes me feel like I'm there making those decisions. SupCom, for instance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 04:14
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:I think having evocative mechanics are the wellspring of fun. A fun game is one that makes me feel like I'm there making those decisions. SupCom, for instance. That first sentence filled out my buzzword bingo card, and simultaneously means absolutely nothing. What does "evocative" mean in this context? Conjuring vivid and detailed imagery? Descriptions of ammo explosions do that, or heat effects, or critical damage or falls from failed PSRs or any number of other things. That's present in spades. BattleTech has definitely been held back for decades by having people writing the cores rules that aren't actually very good at the game, or have a fundamental idea of what the game should be but don't actually put that to paper outside of tomes of optional rulebooks. Game mechanics that don't perfectly emulate a marketing tagline from the mid-80s is not what I would consider a problem in the first place, let alone a significant one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 04:27
|
|
|
The Eisenfaust is just a prototype Marauder. Debate me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 04:40
|
|
|
Also the Ymir seems pretty cool for early tech. Wish I could dump the AC/5s on the Emperor for PPCs. Ughhhh getting to 500+ years in the future in Megamek is gonna suck
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 04:43
|
|
|
Early tech is fun to read about. That Proliferation Cycle anthology is one of my favorites in a while. I need to actually play the game in person more often. I have so many finished, painted units I haven't actually used.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 05:45
|
|
|
Strobe posted:That first sentence filled out my buzzword bingo card, and simultaneously means absolutely nothing. What does "evocative" mean in this context? Conjuring vivid and detailed imagery? Descriptions of ammo explosions do that, or heat effects, or critical damage or falls from failed PSRs or any number of other things. That's present in spades. Yeah those are all great mechanics. I would like mechanics that either are there to reinforce the themes of the universe, or that the universe is written to reinforce. To me having a game like Twilight Imperium where the verbs of gameplay tie in with the themes of the game is What Good Design Looks Like (tm). And if your mechanics and story conflict you hosed up. You can kill one or the other but you should kill one of the two.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 06:22
|
|
|
It's hard to get a "lives are cheap, mechs are valuable" perspective if there are the same number of lives and mechs on the table. If every game had like 10 groups of infantry and some tanks that got wrecked then it'd be easier to see.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2021 08:12
|
|
|
I think that's one of the "off screen" elements in BT fiction. In Heir to the Dragon, the second best BT novel, when Theodore Kurita hits Vega in the counterattack against Steiner forces he has his mech regiment, but there's mentioned like 10 regiments of infantry and armor. So in my head whenever we see the mech fights on the board, there's a lot of people dying in mass battles away from these critical small engagements that are the "true" focus since mechs are used for the truly important battles. Well as far as the nobility are concerned, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2021 14:03
|
|
|
I'm in one of my bi-annual 'get back into BattleTech' phases. Is there anywhere I can read a concise history of the WoB Jihad and beyond up to the 'current' day, whenever that may be? I kinda checked out on anything that happened after FASA died and WizKids got the license because, well, at the time I felt it was extremely stupid.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2021 15:33
|
|
|
Takuan posted:I'm in one of my bi-annual 'get back into BattleTech' phases. Is there anywhere I can read a concise history of the WoB Jihad and beyond up to the 'current' day, whenever that may be? I kinda checked out on anything that happened after FASA died and WizKids got the license because, well, at the time I felt it was extremely stupid. Catalyst is re-releasing all the Wizkids Dark Age novels in DTF, if you're interested in those. If not, check out the Battletech website, that has a pretty concise history, and in their downloads sections they have a couple PDFs under the Dark Age tag that offer a concise history up to Black Monday.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
Christ the main starter box for this game is a challenge to find. I did it, but I had to track down a weird manitoba game shop for it. What happened? Covid shipping bullshit?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2021 05:02
|
|
|
Starter Box has been hard to find for a while afaik.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2021 05:06
|
|
|
It's being reprinted about as fast as it sells out, but COVID and assorted shipping being hosed reasons makes anything that has discrete print runs hard to predict or find at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2021 05:34
|
|
|
Yep: it was sent to reprint months ago, but when it actually hits retail channels is anyone's guess.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2021 06:12
|
|
|
Managed to order it from a placed in toronto. Pretty stoked.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 02:19
|
|
|
The GDL is back again, but didn't they announce Keith was writing their new stuff, or am I imagining that?
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2021 20:57
|
|
|
I feel like I remember something similar, so you're not imagining it alone at least. Also ilClan street dates announced, Friday August 7th in digital, and Wednesday August 11th for hard copies.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2021 21:10
|
|
|
Got mine finally. ...These minis have really good results with Contrast paints. I mean wow.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2021 09:09
|
|
|
Having a conversation with one of my friends, about old btech forums. And I'm trying to remember the one I interacted with the most. So throwing a shot in the dark that someone here might remember it and provide the name if I can describe it. It was circa 2003-2005.. I'm sure it was online after 05 but I didn't interact with it after I left Gateway. Primary Black with dark blue for all lines, had a photo gallery for members. Yeah I know it's a longshot but maybe.. just maybe......... I'm kinda hoping it's still kicking around cause I had some nice photos up there that I don't have anywhere else. The DEXA crew were on the forums pretty heavily. hah! I remembered it! http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/gallery/index.php/thumbnails.php?album=225 Though looks like it doesn't really work anymore.  *edit* dang even the internet archive can't get me what I want. I did find a reference image to the DEXA Slugfest 2003 that we had in Kansas City. Man what a glorious battle that was. We had I think 6 full 6x4 tables of mechs and terrain, each table doing different scenario's for an overall campaign, 2 companies per table. I wish my old hard drive didn't tank. I'd love to have those pictures again. https://web.archive.org/web/20031210083526/http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/gallery/index.php?cat=16 here you can see a couple thumbnails of 2 or 3 of the tables. The ones labeled DEXA Slugfest. The city table was the best one but alas no picture. Kilazar fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jul 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2021 14:08
|
|
|
ilClan sourcebook finally dropped just now. Only been waiting, what, ten years for this book now?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
Almost. Active work on it started back in 2013, though IIRC there were public discussions on it predating that which may stretch the timeline. It's one long horrible blur and I'm so glad to see the drat thing out. Frankly I'm more excited about the follow-on book, Tamar Rising, which is already out for printing. People won't have to sit for years to see the repercussions of what happens in this one, thankfully.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Anything in that book that's a Silver Lining for the Republic? I'll get it when its in DTF. Or Nova Cat stuff?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:29
|
|
|
I'd honestly be more excited for it if the novel didn't start the era in the safest, most boring, and most predictable way possible
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:30
|
|
|
I forget, is the whole 3250 timeskip off the table now? I remember sidebars and the like set in 3250 in the First and Second Succession War books, and there used to be talk about it but then I heard somewhere else not too long ago that that idea got scrapped.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
As it was discussed back in the day, it's dead, yes. That having been said, current TROs have intros dated from 3250, so some aspect of it survives. It's just that there's no public information as to what those intros really mean in terms of plot progression and planned product support that far forward. I can say that they're not planning to dive straight into the future from here, but have a full slate of product support for the IlClan and its immediate aftermath--novels, sourcebooks--and what the devs are planning to do there is, I think, a lot of fun. Much more interesting than "Terra falls, instantly move forward 100 years" at the very least.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 19:22 |
|
|
Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Anything in that book that's a Silver Lining for the Republic? I'll get it when its in DTF. There are fifteen pages at the end of the book that are about other factions. Based on the ToC it looks like it will mostly reiterate the interludes from Hour of the Wolf. I'm gonna say if you did not like Hour of the Wolf and are really interested in playing the battles that were in that slog of a book, this is not a product for you. BattleMaster posted:I'd honestly be more excited for it if the novel didn't start the era in the safest, most boring, and most predictable way possible We really could have saved a lot of work if someone at CGL had just tweeted "Alaric wins lol" back in 2013 and moved ahead.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 20:22
|
|