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Groovelord Neato posted:I got to level 30 before I quit and skipped every cutscene so it was pretty funny making myself not know what was happening. I think MMOs having cutscenes/plot/main story like Old Republic miss the point of the genre (just my opinion) and was trying to rush through to play with buddies but I couldn't do the running back and forth anymore. Is this the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRbgIS8jBw&t=1897s
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Jun 28, 2021 06:24
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shirunei posted:The best way I've found to look at what makes is to use a comparison of someone's work like Gene Wolfe to Brandon Sanderson. On reading Wolfe my take on his style is you are creating your own world just as much as he is telling a story in one. The vagueness and mystery causes you to fill in the blanks. This reminds me of EQ in that while the gameplay is simple, the meta makes the world take on it's own character and feel lived in. Sanderson has everything spelled out and all the interactions of magic completely mapped out, so there isn't much of a mystery with it. This is how I view these newer games that feel very on the rails and are pushing you to an endpoint. I had never played EQ until I tried p99 red in 2014 and was near instantly hooked. It provided something I had been looking for in a game, but had never found. Anyways, that is my two cents and take it as you will. To extend your excellent analogy, it's far harder to write a book that works in various major approaches a reader (and re-reader) might take than a straightforward novel that is mostly concerned about communicating the plot effectively. MMOs are really hard, really risky games to make so it's not surprising that player freedom (and all the things you have to worry about when you give players freedom) has been designed out in favor of lobby simulator 'worlds' for tightly tuned and controlled dungeon/raid skinner boxes. Sachant posted:I honestly like doing this because I'm doing it with other people and we're just hanging out during it. It's like playing a "beer & pretzels" style D&D game. The game isn't really the main attraction in those moments, it's just a pretense to gather a bunch of people you like together in one spot for a while. Black Desert (at around release-valencia) was strangely enough a successor to EQ in this way. You'd just go do stuff (optionally) with your friends, and the mechanics of doing stuff (particularly killing things) was fun and satisfying, and doing stuff with your friends was even more fun. Channels were a nice compromise between instancing and shared worlds, and there were many different viable things to do that didn't involve endless quests, daily lockouts, or much of anything other than 'here's a bunch of different game systems, have fun!.' I have never realized it before, but the world bosses were basically EQ rare spawn camps with a modernized design.
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Jun 28, 2021 06:51
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LLSix posted:WoW used to have weeklies. Those were a lot more tolerable than dailies. Is there any MMO that still does longer duration repeatables or is it all once a day? XIV has a bunch of dailies, but the real bottleneck for endgame currency is the weekly "you can only get 450 currency per week" gate, and how you go about it with the dailies (or other content) is entirely up to you. you can run a single dungeon 5 days in a row (takes about 2 hours total), you can hunt treasure maps for about 2 hours, you can grind the new big group areas, etc. it's so much better than doing all the dailies every fuckin day
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Jun 28, 2021 07:56
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Even as a kid I knew I wanted to avoid Everquest as my first MMO in the same way I'd want to avoid trying heroine or getting a gambling addiction, every story of people playing it always seemed sad. I mean, everything you can say critical about EQ also applies to XI and look how many pages we just filled up reminiscing about XI. NMs were maybe even worse than most of the rare camps in EQ, there were way more of them in XI I'm pretty sure. Rare pops aren't even really a thing in EQ until like level 30? And even then its mostly camping dungeons/raids. XI had rare spawns to camp in every drat zone of the game! But drat both are amazing experiences. No, it isn't just rose-tinted glasses. 100 pages of this thread should tell you that.
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Jun 28, 2021 08:00
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punk rebel ecks posted:Is this the video? Yeah that's the one. I was in the perfect mindset for watching it as I've been playing Cruelty Squad and the game doesn't explain anything and I got sucked in completely after the first night. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jun 28, 2021 |
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Jun 28, 2021 13:57
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I recently resubbed to Planetside 2, so I took the opportunity to dip into the new EQ TLP server. A lot of the old world had been revamped in later expacks, as I ran from Innothule Swamp to Freeport on my Troll Shaman. It was, um, different. Freeport was much more massive and imposing, but did not at all capture the feel of old Freeport all, to me. It was more like an EQ2 zone. The simpler models with blurrier art is somehow better. A tree is nothing but a brown cone with some leaf textures on some planes, a fortress wall is nothing but a cuboid with a brick texture on it. I guess it leaves more to the imagination. For what it's worth, I think the HD texture packs for EQ also make things actively worse. I also greatly dislike voxel style games. Still, I wouldn't mind playing a game that tried to emulate that old EQ style. I guess this is now known as "Playstation 1 Style" for people trying to consciously imitate it ? Either way, I think it's probably 80% rose tinted glasses 
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Jun 28, 2021 18:17
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queeb posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0yQKI7Yw4 There used to be this long video showing how badly the terrain was copy-pasted, but some clips remain. Next to combat issues, it was the most notable problem the game had. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9nLBfH44c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA7GGnyNwEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OODPo9fzk0Q It's not quite clear in the third video, but the 1.0 map of The Black Shroud was literally just rows and rows of thin, gridded lines. It was truly amateur hour at squeenix. There was no excuse for a company that big to put out such a terrible product.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:06
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Groovelord Neato posted:Yeah that's the one. Watched the entire video. It was interesting. Some stuff he spoke about did seem magical. Though some just seem like rose tinted glasses nostalgia. Freakazoid_ posted:There used to be this long video showing how badly the terrain was copy-pasted, but some clips remain. Next to combat issues, it was the most notable problem the game had. One thing 1.0 absolutely has over ARR are graphics. The artstyle, geometry, and model quality are far superior in 1.0. While the terrain is repeated it actually looks and seems to feel like wilderness.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:32
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punk rebel ecks posted:Watched the entire video. It was interesting. Some stuff he spoke about did seem magical. Though some just seem like rose tinted glasses nostalgia. He doesn't mention this but what's really funny about his story of the Rogue that would loot people's bodies not being able to get groups is that Rogue was probably the most worthless class in base EQ so he was doubly hosed.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:43
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cmdrk posted:The simpler models with blurrier art is somehow better. A tree is nothing but a brown cone with some leaf textures on some planes, a fortress wall is nothing but a cuboid with a brick texture on it. I guess it leaves more to the imagination. Legitimately yes, I think sprite art games, and games with simpler graphics, they're more like books than movies. They leave a lot for player to imagine. Things are implied more than explicitly detailed. Modern games that isn't the case at all. Most of us on p1999 abhor the new graphics and keep things as old-school as possible. Its not just nostalgia. Its also why people are still making Doom maps today, and almost nobody makes mods for the latest FPS like Farcry 5 or Doom Eternal. Its not practical to put in all the hours needed if you aren't a AAA company, but doom's simple graphics can still imply a ton of amazing spaces as long as you're willing to use a little imagination. If it was purely rose-tinted glasses, only old fogeys would still be playing it, but there are younger people discovering games like Doom and Everquest who still find them compelling.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:45
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Freakazoid_ posted:There used to be this long video showing how badly the terrain was copy-pasted, but some clips remain. Next to combat issues, it was the most notable problem the game had. I actually played the FFXIV beta, I was really into FFXI and got into it. Not only was the terrain copy pasted and really boring, but the game was unbelievably shallow and grindy. The way you played FFXIV 1.0, there was very little main story quests. The majority of what you did were "levequests". AKA, message board bounties. You went to a leve-guy and you would accept like 5 leve-quest, which were like little cards saying "kill 5 bears" or "kill 3 bees". Then you run out into the field, kill your requisite 5 bears and 3 bees, then run back and turn in the levequests. Then you accept new ones. Rinse, repeat until you level up several times. THAT WAS THE WHOLE loving GAME. FFXIV ARR still has the levequests as a vestigial hangover of that time, but you really don't need to do them and they're really simple and boring. The MSQ (main story quest) is most of what you do in FFXIV now.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:48
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Half the MSQ quests are still kill 50 bears and collect 50 bees, then deliver them to someone halfway around the world, then walk back halfway around the world to get your reward though 
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Jun 28, 2021 19:50
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Biowarfare posted:Half the MSQ quests are still kill 50 bears and collect 50 bees, then deliver them to someone halfway around the world, then walk back halfway around the world to get your reward though Its true, so imagine how grueling it would feel to collect 50 bears and not even get a tiny bit of dialogue about why the bears are important to kill? The second you finish 50 bears, go kill 50 bees. Did that? Kill 50 fish. Did that? Kill 50 rock monsters. Zero story. Zero dialogue. Just endless grinding of mobs for no apparent reason other than xp.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:53
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Zam Wesell posted:Is the sign up process and account creation still a labyrinthine clusterfuck? Trying it now and can confirm: it is. Jesus christ. Doesn't help that PlayOnline seems to be down as well.
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Jun 28, 2021 20:04
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this is why ffxi is superior. you simply beat up 50 bears on your own initiative because you know it is the path to power, there is no reason but strength
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Jun 28, 2021 20:04
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Zaphod42 posted:Its true, so imagine how grueling it would feel to collect 50 bears and not even get a tiny bit of dialogue about why the bears are important to kill? TBH the way most mmo players skip past quest text and cut scenes like they're carriers of deadly plague, this is probably how most games feel for them anyway.
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Jun 28, 2021 20:04
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kedo posted:TBH the way most mmo players skip past quest text and cut scenes like they're carriers of deadly plague, this is probably how most games feel for them anyway. It's how XIV felt for me lol Jazerus posted:this is why ffxi is superior. you simply beat up 50 bears on your own initiative because you know it is the path to power, there is no reason but strength You mean simply beat up 5000 crabs. It was interesting finding out all those years later when I played that the crabs were enormous. I had envisioned my brother and his group camping a seashore and killing only moderately large ones. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jun 28, 2021 |
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Jun 28, 2021 20:12
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Jazerus posted:this is why ffxi is superior. you simply beat up 50 bears on your own initiative because you know it is the path to power, there is no reason but strength Yeah but even then, FFXI has quests, like even at level like 10 you have that one quest in san'doria to go meet the prince in the graveyard, things like that. Which are pretty barebones but for an MMO of that time period, they added a LOT to the feel and tone of the game. I remember when it blew my mind that FFXI had cutscenes in an MMO, that involved my character model no less. EQ and WOW didn't have anything like it. (WOW does now, but not then)
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Jun 28, 2021 20:20
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my ffxi quest continues, i now have a squad of 4 murderhobos that follow me around
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Jun 28, 2021 20:26
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kedo posted:most mmo players skip past quest text and cut scenes [Citation needed] Is this true? Have there been any studies done? Why would you play an MMORPG if you're that uninterested in the world?
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Jun 28, 2021 20:32
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LLSix posted:[Citation needed] number go up , largest number in game, class, or world
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Jun 28, 2021 20:34
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LLSix posted:[Citation needed] This is entirely the reason why WoW for example started putting all the 'important' text in voiced little blurbs and not in the quest dialogue itself, because very few people actually read them.
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Jun 28, 2021 20:34
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LLSix posted:[Citation needed] I've seen some here and there in ffxiv who all but advertise it saying like "lol i don't know why i'm here" that are fun to roast but we ultimately clear the content and continue on our way. That said it is definitely not "most", a lot more people I've seen get so invested in the story they're gushing and cracking jokes about it in the duty.
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Jun 28, 2021 20:36
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LLSix posted:[Citation needed] For the other human beings? I mean I don't skip all quest text myself but I'm pretty surprised that you don't know that's definitely A Thing with most players. Ibram Gaunt posted:This is entirely the reason why WoW for example started putting all the 'important' text in voiced little blurbs and not in the quest dialogue itself, because very few people actually read them. The problem is WOW has entirely waaaaay too many quests, most of which are entirely inconsequential, but still have a good 3 pages of quest text. Most of which is entirely nonsensical flavor text and has nothing to do with the world you're playing in or how to achieve the quest. So the game really trains you to believe they're insignificant. Also the writing quality is extremely hit and miss.
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Jun 28, 2021 20:48
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WoW suffers from the default quest box being awful. Paragraphs of text written in tiny little font crammed inside a tiny little box. You really need an addon to make it not horrible (as with most of WoW's UI).
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Jun 28, 2021 20:58
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The only quests I care about are the ones I make up myself when me and my jackass friends go exploring a dungeon.
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Jun 28, 2021 21:05
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I think it's a combination of MMOs having a history of terrible presentation and lackluster writing, and the endgame problem (wanna do stuff with your friends? get to max level asap), that has created a culture of treating MMO stories like they just don't matter. FF14 is fighting an uphill battle in that respect, and while they're doing a pretty great job of it (ARR duldrums aside), there's still plenty of players who watch and love the MSQ, but skip the story in all the side content 'cause they just wanna do raids.
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Jun 28, 2021 21:28
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For me it depends on the game, in old WoW I would read most of it, current WoW skip it.
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Jun 28, 2021 21:31
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Jazerus posted:this is why ffxi is superior. you simply beat up 50 bears on your own initiative because you know it is the path to power, there is no reason but strength Records of Eminence gives it more purpose. Eureka in FFXIV really refined the formula. CYBEReris posted:I've seen some here and there in ffxiv who all but advertise it saying like "lol i don't know why i'm here" that are fun to roast but we ultimately clear the content and continue on our way. That said it is definitely not "most", a lot more people I've seen get so invested in the story they're gushing and cracking jokes about it in the duty. It's always odd in FFXIV that after a major cutscene you do a dungeon/trial and all of a sudden there are 3 other random people with you.
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Jun 28, 2021 21:41
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punk rebel ecks posted:It's always odd in FFXIV that after a major cutscene you do a dungeon/trial and all of a sudden there are 3 other random people with you. Yeah but not really uncommon in videogames, often co-op situations like that only treat one player as canon. Like in Halo how the second player is just... another master chief, with no explanation of why or how.
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Jun 28, 2021 21:48
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punk rebel ecks posted:Records of Eminence gives it more purpose. Eureka in FFXIV really refined the formula. it's heavily implied in-game and in supplemental material outside of it that the player character inherited a portion of an ancient being's power and legacy to make friends easily and pull them out of their rear end to go on adventures
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Jun 28, 2021 21:51
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Jazerus posted:this is why ffxi is superior. you simply beat up 50 bears on your own initiative because you know it is the path to power, there is no reason but strength See I want more MMOs like this where I just beat up poo poo to level up. I dont need quests.
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Jun 28, 2021 22:18
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I said come in! posted:See I want more MMOs like this where I just beat up poo poo to level up. I dont need quests. I legit prefer the EQ model of only having a few quests but they feel really world-spanning and significant compared to the wow model where kills basically get you 0 exp and you have to do quests to level up but you're tripping in quests everywhere you go. It just restricts your player agency.
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Jun 28, 2021 22:24
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CYBEReris posted:it's heavily implied in-game and in supplemental material outside of it that the player character inherited a portion of an ancient being's power and legacy to make friends easily and pull them out of their rear end to go on adventures Wouldn't it make more sense if instead it would be that the WOL was using Trust Magic to call forth "clones" of previous WOL or they were calling forth WOL from other worlds/realities?
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Jun 28, 2021 22:33
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is there a mmo where everyone isn't the hero for once and you can just be a general store owner or weaponsmith or some poo poo without crafting being half assed or a side thing
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Jun 28, 2021 22:43
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Biowarfare posted:is there a mmo where everyone isn't the hero for once and you can just be a general store owner or weaponsmith or some poo poo without crafting being half assed or a side thing Star Wars Galaxies
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Jun 28, 2021 22:43
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Zaphod42 posted:I legit prefer the EQ model of only having a few quests but they feel really world-spanning and significant compared to the wow model where kills basically get you 0 exp and you have to do quests to level up but you're tripping in quests everywhere you go. I am sad about current Everquest II where this is the case too. You have to do quests to gain levels.
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Jun 28, 2021 22:44
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punk rebel ecks posted:Wouldn't it make more sense if instead it would be that the WOL was using Trust Magic to call forth "clones" of previous WOL or they were calling forth WOL from other worlds/realities? It makes more sense when you realize that poo poo is just made up because some fans want an in-game justification for why you walked into a dungeon/trial/raid/whatever by yourself, completed it with 3 to 7 other people, then walked out alone. There are some where you're stated to be doing it with others, but most imply you did it alone.
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Jun 28, 2021 22:46
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I only played original WoW but I can't imagine caring about the story based on everything I've heard about the expansions. Even Games Workshop isn't in love with stupid retcons as much as Blizzard is. But I'm also the kind of guy that thinks MMOs should plop you into a world and let you do your own thing so I'm not the best judge.
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Jun 28, 2021 23:00
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I love story-heavy single-player RPGs, but I don't think pre-written personal stories, cutscenes, et al. belong in an MMORPG. On the other hand, I greatly appreciate a good backstory and believe it's where MMOs should dedicate their storytelling resources: create a compelling, lived-in place, populate it with NPCs who can tell me why that place is the way it is, then allow me (and anyone I meet along the way) to create my own narrative experience through my actions in said place. When I play an MMO where the best/only leveling path requires a lot of scripted quests, I skip through them as fast as possible so that I can get back to the gameplay, world, and social dynamics. Open world events are a much better model in my opinion, because their shared nature makes them "real" within a persistent game world in a way that private personal stories can't possibly be (though if they're too frequent, they start to lose their impact too; it's hard to care that I just saved the village if the invasion starts again in 10 minutes). There's also the side factor that I think most MMO writing is excruciatingly bad, cliché-riddled Chosen One garbage. SWTOR was the only MMO I have tried in which at least some of the dialogue was decently written (though it was godawful in the expansions). I enjoy the gameplay and world design of GW2 quite a bit, but oh boy do I hate every single character in the personal story. I would hope for more of them to be killed off, but on the rare occasion a character does die, subsequent chapters insist on reminding you about them regularly under the apparent assumption that you were strongly attached. I wish there were a way to fast track the zone/content unlocks from all the story chapters that didn't require playing through a scripted story.
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Jun 28, 2021 23:01
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