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no you can just paste the text here or use another source
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Jun 29, 2021 15:00
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Nilbop posted:i mean, not in this thread it doesn't matter anywhere anyplace anytime greek govt being corrupt little shits 5 years earlier didn't have to condemn the greek working class to a decade of poverty, EU could easily afford to help greece out of whatever mess they got themselves into. they just decided not to do it because thjey didn't have to
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Jun 29, 2021 15:02
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Truga posted:it doesn't matter anywhere anyplace anytime you don't get it, unnecessary suffering is amusing to him like tearing the wings off a butterfly, except it's people
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Jun 29, 2021 15:04
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no it really does matter whether they knew or not and just believing that they did isn't the same thing
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Jun 29, 2021 15:05
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it really doesn't matter, it's completely unimportant actually but they did
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Jun 29, 2021 15:09
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"it doesn't matter what they did, it matters what i feel they did"
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Jun 29, 2021 15:11
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Nilbop posted:i mean, not in this thread why don't you just say whether or not you're for collective punishment and save everyone a lot of time.
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Jun 29, 2021 15:15
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you'd think at some point one of you would've pegged that you can't substantiate this bollocks you've all decided to believe like a big masturbatory cult
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Jun 29, 2021 15:20
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Either the EU knew, in which case it's culpable, or it didn't, and it should never have been allowed to dictate economic policy due to sheer incompetence.
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Jun 29, 2021 15:21
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Nilbop posted:you'd think at some point one of you would've pegged that they can't substantiate this bollocks you've all decided to believe like a big masturbatory cult two entire books and a nyt article have been offered, but since they weren't spoon-fed to you word by word, yeah I guess they are bullocks
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Jun 29, 2021 15:21
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so a paywalled article that contains information so elusive that a half dozen of you have now been unable to find it elsewhere, and a reference to what i can only assume was MiddleOne's response to Private Speech, where he cited Blyth's Austerity and Tooze's Crashed to argue that germany wanted to discipline the southern countries not that the eu knew that the greek government had made their numbers out of fairy dust
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Jun 29, 2021 15:27
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The Greek government saw the economic collapse comming and could have mitigated it, but intentionally chose to obfuscate those informations to amass more money for the corrupt leadership instead. In the end the northern European states may have built a profit from this, but it's absolutely incorrect to claim that the Greek government was a blameless victim.
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Jun 29, 2021 15:31
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cant cook creole bream posted:The Greek government saw the economic collapse comming and could have mitigated it, but intentionally chose to obfuscate those informations to amass more money for the corrupt leadership instead. yeah that's what people are claiming, if this is what passes for reading comprehension in the EU then the whole "we were tricked!" story seems quite possible
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Jun 29, 2021 15:34
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Doctor Jeep posted:it IS the eu's fault because they knew what was going on and they worked with those crooks no problem this is what you claimed, and this is what i asked you to substantiate.
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Jun 29, 2021 15:37
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It's a pointless discussion, ultimately the EU wasn't willing to spend the money necessary to protect/rescue the southern economies. And they had a pretty schizophrenic set of demands on what those countries should do, but largely lovely liberal ones.
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Jun 29, 2021 15:57
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I'm not going to cite every citation on this wikipedia page, but the interesting bit seems to be this quote:quote:For example, at the beginning of 2010, it was discovered that Goldman Sachs and other banks had arranged financial transactions involving the use of derivatives to reduce the Greek government's nominal foreign currency debt, in a manner that the banks claim was consistent with EU debt reporting rules, but which others have argued were contrary at the very least to the spirit of the reporting rules of such instruments. Christoforos Sardelis, former head of Greece's Public Debt Management Agency, said that the country did not understand what it was buying. He also said he learned that "other EU countries such as Italy" had made similar deals (while similar cases were reported for other countries, including Belgium, Portugal, and even Germany). The bolding there is mine. Now, even if we lay aside the issue of whether these people should have been doing this sort of dealing, it seems like either a) the EU is a completely useless body that has no idea what any of its members are doing b) EU countries have been doing these sort of transactions with the knowledge of the EU. Of course we can now shift to quibbling about what is "the EU" and what isn't, but if the entire point of the European Project is a combined financial zone, wouldn't you want someone actually looking at the financial stuff all the respective members are doing?
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Jun 29, 2021 16:01
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Doctor Jeep posted:yeah that's what people are claiming, if this is what passes for reading comprehension in the EU then the whole "we were tricked!" story seems quite possible So would you agree that Greece's problems where mostly home-grown, rather than the inevitable results from foreign capitalist suppressor, trying to kill the country to sell the parts? Because that seems to be an actual opinion. At the worst, the EU did not manage to stop the Greek collapse. And I will give you that the member nations tried to negotiate any sort of advantage, when they tried to prop up that failed state. Retelling it like colonists destabilising a country to steal their natural resources is a really biased view. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jun 29, 2021 |
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Jun 29, 2021 16:02
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cant cook creole bream posted:So would you agree that Greece's problems where mostly home-grown, rather than the inevitable results from foreign capitalist suppressor, trying to kill the country to sell the parts? Because that seems to be an actual opinion. no i wouldn't agree, which you should know since i've written posts in this thread and they're not in the vein of your story no, at worst the eu plunged them into collapse instead of extending a hand, which is what members of a union are supposed to do every view is biased, welcome to real life Doktor Avalanche fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jun 29, 2021 |
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Jun 29, 2021 16:10
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Nilbop posted:this is what you claimed, and this is what i asked you to substantiate. i think i already replied to that request with an image macro
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Jun 29, 2021 16:11
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https://twitter.com/ecb/status/1409851396795645966
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Jun 29, 2021 16:22
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Nilbop posted:you'd think at some point one of you would've pegged that you can't substantiate this bollocks you've all decided to believe like a big masturbatory cult Well this economist living in the UK at the time worked out that the Greek government were not being entirely honest with their accounting "magic": https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-1683481 Or have the BBC again, this time from 2001: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1095783.stm "Greece has one of the highest inflation rates in Europe. Public sector borrowing is also much higher than would be permitted normally under the EU rules governing entry to the project." In setting the conditions for the creation of a common currency, EU members decreed that any country applying to join must keep its government budget deficit below 3 percent of GDP and aim for a surplus. The value of all outstanding public debt must also be below 60 percent of GDP. Greece has failed to hit this target, with debt at present equal to 105 percent of GDP, but several euro-zone countries also fall short on this measure." The EU wanted Greece in the EMU, nobody was going to look too closely at the books because this was a great moment to expand the size of the Eurozone at a time when the currency was lagging. You can find more, but I've got to make dinner. Just use Google, it's really effective!
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Jun 29, 2021 16:23
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https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/goldmans-greek-gambit/ "In 2001, Greece was looking for ways to disguise its mounting financial troubles. The Maastricht Treaty required all eurozone member states to show improvement in their public finances, but Greece was heading in the wrong direction. Then Goldman Sachs came to the rescue, arranging a secret loan of 2.8 billion euros for Greece, disguised as an off-the-books “cross-currency swap”—a complicated transaction in which Greece’s foreign-currency debt was converted into a domestic-currency obligation using a fictitious market exchange rate. As a result, about 2 percent of Greece’s debt magically disappeared from its national accounts. Christoforos Sardelis, then head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency, later described the deal to Bloomberg Business as “a very sexy story between two sinners.” For its services, Goldman received a whopping 600 million euros ($793 million), according to Spyros Papanicolaou, who took over from Sardelis in 2005. That came to about 12 percent of Goldman’s revenue from its giant trading and principal-investments unit in 2001—which posted record sales that year. The unit was run by Blankfein." "Then the deal turned sour. After the 9/11 attacks, bond yields plunged, resulting in a big loss for Greece because of the formula Goldman had used to compute the country’s debt repayments under the swap. By 2005, Greece owed almost double what it had put into the deal, pushing its off-the-books debt from 2.8 billion euros to 5.1 billion. In 2005, the deal was restructured and that 5.1 billion euros in debt locked in. Perhaps not incidentally, Mario Draghi, now head of the European Central Bank and a major player in the current Greek drama, was then managing director of Goldman’s international division." Wait a minute, 2001? https://www.theguardian.com/global/2012/apr/26/greece-europe-north-south-divide "in 1999, the year whose economic statistics were used by the European Council at Santa Maria da Feira in June 2000 to endorse Greece's eurozone participation. Greece's performance was also positive with regard to the other nominal convergence criteria (inflation rate, long-term interest rates, public debt and exchange rate). It is worth recalling that the decision endorsing Greece's eurozone admission was made after exhaustive scrutiny of the Greek economy and respective reports by the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the Economic and Financial Committee." "However, this change had the effect of increasing government deficits prior to 2004 and thus damaged Greece's reputation. The allegation that Greece had entered the eurozone by falsifying data made headlines in numerous newspapers around the world. Unfortunately, the assertion was also adopted by many politicians in the eurozone and is repeated to this day. But the allegation indicates ignorance, not to say hypocrisy. Because even including defence expenditure upon order and not delivery, under the new recording method the revised state deficit figures in the critical year (1999) became 3.1% of GDP against 2.5% of GDP previously. The precise figure was actually 3.07%, according to Eurostat (AMECO). This deficit is still lower than the equivalent revised deficits of other member states that were assessed on the basis of 1997 statistics, and which formed the first wave of member states that created the euro area in 1999. The AMECO website shows that many other member states entered the euro area with state deficits that were higher than 3.1% of GDP. But there is little public reference to this fact, even though many of these now manifest similar problems to Greece." I'm lolling pretty hard right now. Btw neither Goldman Sachs, or draghi , or the ECA or the ECB or the EC or the EFC of Eurostat or indeed any of the big institutional lenders suffered any consequences.no one was prosecuted, no one was shunned or shamed. Only the left wing idiots left holding the bag payed the price, as a example for the others.
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Jun 29, 2021 17:06
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That's one hell of a hot potato game.
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Jun 29, 2021 17:09
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Ya know, we tend to view these crisis as these big complex things because gosh it's so huge and intricate and so many moving parts, but really just stop a little bit and see "who profited?who came out ahead?" And sure enough, there's your problem. Like old stoneface said "where's the money?"
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Jun 29, 2021 17:28
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Ya know, we tend to view these crisis as these big complex things because gosh it's so huge and intricate and so many moving parts, but really just stop a little bit and see "who profited?who came out ahead?" And sure enough, there's your problem. you can find the money in the hands of the nearest Deutsche Bank ceo.
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Jun 29, 2021 18:11
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forkboy84 posted:The EU wanted Greece in the EMU, nobody was going to look too closely at the books because this was a great moment to expand the size of the Eurozone at a time when the currency was lagging. This was never a secret. I recall it being reported in mainstream newspapers around the Euro's introduction ca. ~2002. The whole "oh but we didn't know they were cooking the books" is basically the Dolchstoß-myth of neoliberal bankers and their cronies that was invented a decade later.
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Jun 29, 2021 20:48
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Pope Hilarius II posted:This was never a secret. I recall it being reported in mainstream newspapers around the Euro's introduction ca. ~2002. B-B-B-BUT WHERE ARE YOUR SOURCERINOS NOOOOOOOOO \/  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 29, 2021 21:02
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on a somewhat different topic, orban's been buying advertisements across the EU. You can help research what's the network of newspapers that have no qualms supporting the orban regime https://twitter.com/L_deJonge/status/1409805688080011265 https://twitter.com/L_deJonge/status/1409972097191972866
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Jun 29, 2021 21:39
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Pope Hilarius II posted:This was never a secret. I recall it being reported in mainstream newspapers around the Euro's introduction ca. ~2002.
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Jun 29, 2021 21:47
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double nine posted:on a somewhat different topic, orban's been buying advertisements across the EU. You can help research what's the network of newspapers that have no qualms supporting the orban regime Sweden's largest morning paper accepted CCP-ads earlier this year so I heavily doubt morality is factor in most ad-sales departments.
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Jun 29, 2021 21:54
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double nine posted:on a somewhat different topic, orban's been buying advertisements across the EU. You can help research what's the network of newspapers that have no qualms supporting the orban regime What exactly is he peddling in those?
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Jun 29, 2021 22:14
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cant cook creole bream posted:What exactly is he peddling in those? Looks like the ad in question is this, in various languages: https://twitter.com/PKPeterKarlsson/status/1409983098381430785 https://twitter.com/nellydidelot/status/1409808820470267904 It's titled "The future of the European Union - Hungary's Proposals". Trusting on google autotranslate and what little French I remember, it's basically a bunch of "the mean EU shouldn't meddle in national affairs", "migrants are scary and should be kept out", and also "Serbia should become a EU member".
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Jun 30, 2021 07:36
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Perestroika posted:Looks like the ad in question is this, in various languages:
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Jun 30, 2021 08:59
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well he's right about the apocalypse being imminent too bad about the future of european people tho, we have none lmao
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Jun 30, 2021 10:01
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Orban is going hard for the FORT EVROPA "shoot all immigrants at the border on sight" approach. We will be seeing a lot of climate refugees in the coming decades, as droughts and heat waves destroy crop season after crop season. Perfect conditions to stoke fear about the "ravenous hordes coming to mooch all our welfare while also taking all white people's jobs somehow".
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Jun 30, 2021 10:12
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https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/viktor-orban-using-nso-spyware-in-assault-on-media-data-suggests EU being completely loving toothless about this gently caress is really starting to piss me off.
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Jul 20, 2021 12:42
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Serbia doesn't want to be an EU member. We are stronkest alone without your MIGRANTS and REGULATIONS.
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Jul 20, 2021 15:21
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we also recently saw the ECHR affirm the Human Right for bosses to suspend and fire employees for wearing headscarves or "religious symbols" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/15/eu-companies-can-ban-employees-wearing-headscarves-religious-symbols this is a great victory for neutrality in Europe
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Jul 20, 2021 16:54
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webcams for christ posted:we also recently saw the ECHR affirm the Human Right for bosses to suspend and fire employees for wearing headscarves or "religious symbols" Unless it's a cross then you can't be fired
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Jul 20, 2021 16:55
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DarkCrawler posted:https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/viktor-orban-using-nso-spyware-in-assault-on-media-data-suggests I mean he is an extremely popular democratically elected politician with immunity from prosecution, it's not exactly easy to do anything about him. The best they can do is apply PR and financial pressure, which they already do. e: If everyone else agrees then they could suspend their priviledges, but Poland definitely wouldn't and possibly some more rightwing places like Austria and Denmark might be against it too. They can also be fined significant amounts of money but only if they actually break any regulations, which they strenuously try to avoid. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jul 20, 2021 |
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Jul 20, 2021 16:58
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