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Falcon2001 posted:Hold up, I don't disagree with that premise at all, I'm just saying that they are moving away from it currently, not that they wouldn't potentially do it under different circumstances. Corporations are amoral profit generation machines, sure, but what I'm saying is that the current circumstances of this particular amoral profit generating engine doesn't support the idea that this is a current issue. Ah, ok, sorry. Well, lemme explain why that point was in my original post a bit more explicitly then, because I went from A to B with no inbetween to explain where that came from. Kinda assumed familiarity with DRM wars from 20 years ago. Some of my suspicion of 11's TPM & secureboot requirement, is that trusted platform stuff is a big potential stepping stone into a quasi-walled garden. And it has good options to use boiling the frog methods. Basically, what you do is let the existing applications continue as they are, and create a new class of "secure applications" that have been vetted & signed (by microsoft). Then you gradually shift the foundations to restrict the open apps more heavily, and make the secure apps the superior way to do things. And then you let the old APIs moulder and slowly deprecate them. That's how you get the walled windows: it's not like iOS because you can still run insecure / unsigned apps if you want... but nobody does because they suck to use and don't work well. A lot of this stuff was originally conceived of as ways to protect DRM from the user, not to protect the user from malware. The TPM was the place to put keys that the user couldn't get at. It's disabled by default in most BIOSes because it had so little user upside, and so many hostile intentions, that it was widely rejected. And this is not hypothetical. Linux distros right now rely on keys from Microsoft to sign their boot loaders in order to secure boot. Even the biggest Red Hats & Ubuntus don't get independent keys in the firmware. If secure boot is mandatory, MS is ultimately the arbiter of what OS can boot on your PC.
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Jun 29, 2021 22:35
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Klyith posted:Ah, ok, sorry. Well, lemme explain why that point was in my original post a bit more explicitly then, because I went from A to B with no inbetween to explain where that came from. Kinda assumed familiarity with DRM wars from 20 years ago. Minor edit: I should start by just making it clear that I'm generally willing to trust tech companies when they say they want to do XYZ, because I work for a major tech company and I've seen the inside view of sometimes unpopular decisions. I don't have any insider info on Win11 or anything, so there's no fun secrets I'm hiding here, just a general knowledge that a group of engineers going 'hey here's a list of good reasons we should do X' can often get totally ripped apart outside of the company context - and sometimes for very good reason. I also am generally not in favor of moves toward walled-garden style setups, and so I'm kind of somewhere in the middle here. Not trying to be an argumentative jerk, just like, I think this has a bit more nuance than 'MSFT dumb, wants money.' After getting the context, I see where you're getting at. I don't think that the modern Microsoft leadership is particularly aiming in that direction, for what it's worth (and not because of any particularly noble venture, but because they see profit in other areas), but I can see where you're coming from at least and agree that it would be a bad future to head toward; I have no interest in a Microsoft-controlled walled garden, but I am at least sympathetic to the idea that requiring hardware-level security devices are a good idea, although I too remember the EFF articles against TPM chips. I'm hoping there will be some good modern articles written in the coming weeks so that I can get a better idea of the upside/downsides. Some nuance though: For what it's worth, my understanding of SecureBoot is that it's a UEFI-layer protection, not the entire system. So it's a protection against firmware-level attacks, and shouldn't have any effect against programs running in the OS-layer as long as they're not loving with the bootloader. Also, it looks like SecureBoot doesn't require MSFT, it just defaults to the two main MSFT certificates that you need to be able to clear against...or anything else on the firmware chip, and OEMs have their own. I can't find data on this directly, but it looks like the OEM certs are their own deal as well, not just signed off MSFT, which would make sense as the UEFI body is a bunch of hardware makers and Microsoft, and presumably Lenovo doesn't want to go to MSFT for making firmware. https://oofhours.com/2021/01/19/uefi-secure-boot-who-controls-what-can-run/ Falcon2001 fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 01:30
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Finding performance not great so far on my surface laptop 3 (i5/8gb). Even just then as I was backspacing it kinda lagged for a second which I've never seen on anything I've owned myself in many years. Changing colors in personalization takes a longggg time.
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Jun 30, 2021 01:31
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Does anybody know if the currently available windows 11 build supports nested virtualization on AMD cpus? It’s been a feature of the insider build of W10 for over a year now but I can’t find anything new about it since.
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Jun 30, 2021 02:03
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Falcon2001 posted:Not trying to be an argumentative jerk, just like, I think this has a bit more nuance than 'MSFT dumb, wants money.'  No need to apologize, you haven't been at all jerky. Uh, if I've come across like I'm mad at the pushback, not at all. Just posting with passion.Falcon2001 posted:Minor edit: I should start by just making it clear that I'm generally willing to trust tech companies when they say they want to do XYZ, because I work for a major tech company and I've seen the inside view of sometimes unpopular decisions.  -land. As I said to IE, I would be quickly mollified if there was a good explanation. Show me the money.However, as far as trusting big tech, the past four years have been a giant lesson that "unpopular decisions" can have real consequence in the real world. If google makes stadia and it's a clownshow, whatever. Some people get fired and money wasted, but in the large scale no harm. If facebook & twitter decides that fascism is good for engagement metrics, well... Personally, my trust in the big tech world is pretty eroded. Plus the people who work in it. If the best I can hope for is the coders do a 1-day walkout when their company does something horribly unethical, well, that's not much. To me that is people assuaging a guilty conscience more than anything. I don't think the tech world is full of bad people. I think it has a few bad people, and lots of smart people who are as good at self-deception as anyone else, but think they are too smart for it. Falcon2001 posted:I don't think that the modern Microsoft leadership is particularly aiming in that direction, for what it's worth (and not because of any particularly noble venture, but because they see profit in other areas), but I can see where you're coming from at least and agree that it would be a bad future to head toward; I have no interest in a Microsoft-controlled walled garden, but I am at least sympathetic to the idea that requiring hardware-level security devices are a good idea, although I too remember the EFF articles against TPM chips. I'm hoping there will be some good modern articles written in the coming weeks so that I can get a better idea of the upside/downsides. I don't seriously think they are either, right now. But the problem is the first steps on this path are pretty trivial. And another problem is that a new corporate aim is 1 CEO change away. It's more about power & capabilities than intent. Falcon2001 posted:Some nuance though: SecureBoot stuff Today I think that maybe the Linux Foundation would be nice to make into a second key holder equal with MS. Assuming they would accept that role, maybe they wouldn't want it? Back when they were making the spec, the FSF might have been the one pushing to have a key on behalf of the Open Source World, and hoo boy wouldn't that be fun. RMS holding not just the FSF organization hostage, but also a critically important piece of security data? He'd probably write it on paper & stuff it in his underwear, then ask young female security researchers if they wanted to "see his root certificate". 
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Jun 30, 2021 04:14
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codo27 posted:Started downloading the insider preview yesterday, began installing. Got to 24% or something and I got sidetracked and had to leave. Open up the laptop again, whole process has reset to downloading 0%. Off to a great start here. Interrupting a new feature update/insider build by putting the computer in sleep mode has always restarted the download, since at least the Windows 10 Technical Preview. It's annoying but that's how Windows Update works.
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Jun 30, 2021 15:02
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Klyith, just wanted to say that I've appreciated your thoughtful responses. Been trying to find some time to reply and just haven't, but maybe today! It's a good conversation to be having!
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Jun 30, 2021 15:22
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I set up the preview on VMware Horizon VDI, and so far almost everything works normally. FSLogix is taking an extra 10-15 seconds to load profiles for some reason, and loading Win10 profiles causes a bunch of graphical glitches. Hopefully they'll have some system for converting profiles by release. I was worried performance would be bad because my server has no hardware acceleration for graphics, but the UI actually runs smoother than Win10 does. RAM and CPU usage are a bit higher, but I haven't done any OS optimizations for VDI yet.
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Jun 30, 2021 17:34
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Just to chime in on the “trust or don’t trust tech” thing, and from the perspective of an average consumer and outsider: at this point, tech companies need to go out of their way to earn my trust, and I will not trust them by default. I don’t buy into conspiracies per se, but until there’s a clear and transparent explanation for a suspicious trend or change, I’m going to assume it’s not for my benefit. It’s probably going to constrict my choice in some way or exploit me or someone else, because that’s happened plenty of times already and practically defines the current tech age. Probably a superfluous post on this thread, now that I think of it.
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Jun 30, 2021 18:20
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doctorfrog posted:Just to chime in on the “trust or don’t trust tech” thing, and from the perspective of an average consumer and outsider: at this point, tech companies need to go out of their way to earn my trust, and I will not trust them by default. Honestly this is a pretty compelling argument to me. Like Microsoft should probably be making a pretty clear case for why TPM 2.0 is required or useful/etc, and that probably should be the norm among tech companies setting requirements/etc.
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Jun 30, 2021 19:03
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Computers being genuinely useful for ten years or more has been the norm for a while, my org still has some Core2Quads with 8GB DDR2 and an SSD running Win10 just fine. Breaking this norm is costly and feels unnecessary.
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Jun 30, 2021 19:15
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Small keyboard still not available in my language. Also performance of the on screen keyboard is awful on my laptop. The whole UI experience reminds me of running Windows Blinds on Windows 95.
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Jun 30, 2021 19:35
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Wait wtf why can't I move the taskbar to the side in Windows 11? Is there a single compelling reason to upgrade? I hate the dock, I hate everything about the new interface and I was just starting to accept windows 10. Man poo poo - I guess I may have to go back to linux and put my head in the sand with MS for 5 years like I did back in 2006.
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Jun 30, 2021 19:45
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64bit_Dophins posted:Wait wtf why can't I move the taskbar to the side in Windows 11? Microsoft doesn't understand UX - like at all. I could write a ton on this, but the micro-decisions in the MS products are actually really good. Font choice, colors, contrast, and the minor layout elements are all expertly picked (With exceptions in a lot of the Metro/Material stuff). When I want reference material for these small decisions that I can't work out, I frequently look to MS stuff for ideas. Segoe UI is basically the font I use for everything. However, the macro level decisions about app layout, control flow, and general user experience are complete trash.
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Jun 30, 2021 20:06
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64bit_Dophins posted:Wait wtf why can't I move the taskbar to the side in Windows 11? "Unlock Taskbar Personalisation for just $8.99 a month (or $100 for the year)"
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Jun 30, 2021 20:10
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WonkyBob posted:"Unlock Taskbar Personalisation for just $8.99 a month (or $100 for the year)" gently caress Canine Blues Arooo posted:Microsoft doesn't understand UX - like at all. I could write a ton on this, but the micro-decisions in the MS products are actually really good. Font choice, colors, contrast, and the minor layout elements are all expertly picked (With exceptions in a lot of the Metro/Material stuff). When I want reference material for these small decisions that I can't work out, I frequently look to MS stuff for ideas. Segoe UI is basically the font I use for everything. Yeah I mean imo the perfect UX was Gnome 2. It has been downhill from there ever since.
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Jun 30, 2021 20:32
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64bit_Dophins posted:gently caress
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Jun 30, 2021 20:34
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I would take the XP Start Menu, The Windows 7 file explorer, and control panel / options / settings / etc. stylistic language with XP layout, and the Windows 10 taskbar. If I could inject some idea from Gnome 40 into all of this, I think that'd be my dream UX ship.
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Jun 30, 2021 21:19
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doctorfrog posted:Just to chime in on the “trust or don’t trust tech” thing, and from the perspective of an average consumer and outsider: at this point, tech companies need to go out of their way to earn my trust, and I will not trust them by default. A good comparison to make is that when Apple added what's basically a TPM to the iPhone, that's also when they added the fingerprint scanner. Microsoft's problem is that all the features that a TPM provides are already there in Windows 10, and sometimes just work in a less secure way without a TPM. To talk about why 11 needs a TPM would raise make people ask "is Windows 10 insecure?" and that's not what they want. Another problem is that TPMs are a good way to do things that people want, like full drive encryption, but not necessary for it. At the same time, it's also a great way to do things that people don't want like DRM or preventing you from installing Linux. So people get scared, because Microsoft hasn't earned people's trust. I'm convinced that TPMs are good, and making more people use them is good. That said, they're not worth the ewaste to require and microsoft has completely botched the rollout. I would be shocked if the final Windows 11 requires it, as they've backed away from stuff like this before. Maybe it'll be required for pro and enterprise? Who knows.
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Jun 30, 2021 22:32
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Seeing a lot of posts not saying the 3D one from Jurassic Park.
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Jul 1, 2021 01:15
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One thing I've noticed that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that third party entries in the right click context menu don't seem to be there anymore. So right clicking a .7z file gives me the option to open with 7zip File Manager (since it's the default program), but the quick select options that 7zip adds to the menu to let you quickly zip and unzip files isn't there. I assume they don't want programs to be able to add anything they like in there, or it's just broken, but I feel like it's probably the former.
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Jul 1, 2021 10:52
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Klyith posted:Today I think that maybe the Linux Foundation would be nice to make into a second key holder equal with MS. Assuming they would accept that role, maybe they wouldn't want it? I'd be real wary of the Linux Foundation being the sole second keyholder, as they can be pretty aggressively anti-non-Linux (see the repeated bullshit about ZFS, for example), not just anti-Windows. As one of several keyholders, though? Sure, sounds good to me. doctorfrog posted:Just to chime in on the “trust or don’t trust tech” thing, and from the perspective of an average consumer and outsider: at this point, tech companies need to go out of their way to earn my trust, and I will not trust them by default. I mean, that's true of basically any company. Assume they're trying to gently caress you over and/or exploit you somehow until and unless thoroughly proven otherwise. Tech companies are some of the most highlighted examples lately, but they're certainly not the only ones. 64bit_Dophins posted:Wait wtf why can't I move the taskbar to the side in Windows 11? I think the next DirectX version is going to require Windows 11. So, if PC games are a big thing for you, it'll eventually matter. Other than that? Not . . . really. I like some of the things they're trying to do, but the whole thing just feels off. Canine Blues Arooo posted:Microsoft doesn't understand UX - like at all. I could write a ton on this, but the micro-decisions in the MS products are actually really good. Font choice, colors, contrast, and the minor layout elements are all expertly picked (With exceptions in a lot of the Metro/Material stuff). When I want reference material for these small decisions that I can't work out, I frequently look to MS stuff for ideas. Segoe UI is basically the font I use for everything. This is probably the best way I've ever seen somebody put my issues with Microsoft's UX. There are a lot of individual things I really like about Microsoft products, but they haven't really felt coherent and well-designed in a long, long time (if ever). Everything just feels bolted on (probably because it has been, over the last 30 years), and it's rare that they actually go back to clean up the cruft. Meanwhile, they seem to get a new galaxy-brained product designer for every version in the last ten years who's convinced that they'll finally be the one to crack combining touch and mouse/keyboard interfaces into the same UI. 64bit_Dophins posted:gently caress
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Jul 1, 2021 11:09
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Not Windows 11 chat, but I've installed the beta release of Office 365 on both my Windows 10 and 11 installs, and I'm still not seeing the UI refresh - any idea why not?
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Jul 1, 2021 12:18
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Dunno, but speaking of office, I gotta say I'm not hugely thrilled with the refresh. It's pretty on the surface, but one thing that they're losing that a lot of UIs are losing these days is the use of contrast to help separate and group control groups. They went the right way between 13 and 16 but now they're going back to a sea of pale. Look at windows XP's explorer vs 10 or 11's explorer. Sure it was uglier, but you assimilated the structure of the window and visual hierarchy at a glance. In 11, it's a bunch of folders in white space with white areas around them that have UI buttons floating in them with barely a border line to distinguish what belongs to where. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 13:31
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:One thing I've noticed that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that third party entries in the right click context menu don't seem to be there anymore. So right clicking a .7z file gives me the option to open with 7zip File Manager (since it's the default program), but the quick select options that 7zip adds to the menu to let you quickly zip and unzip files isn't there. I assume they don't want programs to be able to add anything they like in there, or it's just broken, but I feel like it's probably the former. Between this and the general reduction in customization especially wrt Start, it’s starting to feel like the tagline should be something like: Windows 11: The OS with less. No way I’m upgrading till I can put the task bar on the side and it’s possible to have third-party entries in the task menu without hacking the registry or something.
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Jul 1, 2021 13:34
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I assume it's related to things like sandboxing and not letting any old program get its grubby hooks into the system UI. So in the case of 7-Zip, the developer would need to change it so that when you right click a zip file and select 7-Zip, it brings up a menu with equivalent options that were in the context menu rather than defaulting to the file manager itself (and have that as one option on the list). It would be one extra click for the user but more secure for the OS. E: two extra clicks I guess, since regular zip files are treated like folders and would need you to go right click > open with, instead of your chosen zip program being at the top of the context menu due to its file associations, as happens with .7z files currently. Doctor_Fruitbat fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 14:23
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MikeJF posted:Dunno, but speaking of office, I gotta say I'm not hugely thrilled with the refresh. It's pretty on the surface, but one thing that they're losing that a lot of UIs are losing these days is the use of contrast to help separate and group control groups. They went the right way between 13 and 16 but now they're going back to a sea of pale.
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Jul 1, 2021 15:12
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Man what was the name of that program I think I got on a PC gamer cd 100 years ago that transformed your desktop into an actual 3D space station looking room that you could walk around and interact with the icons and junk in a totally superfluous way
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Jul 1, 2021 16:31
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codo27 posted:Man what was the name of that program I think I got on a PC gamer cd 100 years ago that transformed your desktop into an actual 3D space station looking room that you could walk around and interact with the icons and junk in a totally superfluous way I had a TotL Packard Bell from Sears in 1997 as a gift from my wife’s mom, and it had a program (not a drat “app”) that was a 3D trip around a house that was really slick the way you could find and utilize the different parts of a room to do stuff on the screen. Space Ship version sounds baller AF so I look forward to seeing it, too!
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Jul 1, 2021 16:54
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DerekSmartymans posted:I had a TotL Packard Bell from Sears in 1997 as a gift from my wife’s mom, and it had a program (not a drat “app”) that was a 3D trip around a house that was really slick the way you could find and utilize the different parts of a room to do stuff on the screen. Space Ship version sounds baller AF so I look forward to seeing it, too! That would have been a later version of Packard Bell Navigtor. Dunno about this space ship thing. That sounds interesting.
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Jul 1, 2021 17:02
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There were a lot of those back in the early 2000s. Off the top of my head I remember 3DTop and 3DNA Desktop
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Jul 1, 2021 17:12
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3DTop looks spacey?
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 17:21
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codo27 posted:Man what was the name of that program I think I got on a PC gamer cd 100 years ago that transformed your desktop into an actual 3D space station looking room that you could walk around and interact with the icons and junk in a totally superfluous way Microsoft Bob?!?
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Jul 1, 2021 17:21
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Kreeblah posted:That would have been a later version of Packard Bell Navigtor. Dunno about this space ship thing. That sounds interesting. That was it! 128Mb RAM and 56K v.90 modem in a ISA (pretty sure) slot. I might still have the modem, and a separate later model PCI-slot 1st gen discrete gpu in a box, too! Also, the comments on that YouTube link say there are precursor “skins” AND “themes” in the options and one is sci-fi themed.
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Jul 1, 2021 17:23
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It was 3DNA I believe, that sounds right. I may have embellished the space part
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Jul 1, 2021 17:23
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e: nm
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Jul 1, 2021 17:24
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codo27 posted:It was 3DNA I believe, that sounds right. I may have embellished the space part Looks like there are space skins? 
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Jul 1, 2021 17:28
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I just remember the space cow background
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Jul 1, 2021 18:49
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back in the day i used derek smart's desktop commander for all my top of the line computer navigational needs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIn1_9YvGds
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Jul 1, 2021 21:36
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Ok, a good article explaining the CPU requirements: It's about a single feature called mode based execution control that did not get added until Intel Core 7th and AMD Zen 2. It has big performance impact on the VM-based security feature. OTOH Zen 2 means the Ryzen 3000 series, while MS's cpu list includes the Zen+ 2000 series. So either the stuff on the internet about MBEC only being in Zen 2 and up is wrong, or someone at MS hosed up and didn't know that the Ryzen model-vs-generation numbering scheme is really silly. edit:   Oops! If MS's own, nearly-new Surfaces can't actually run win11 without heavy performance problems, it's gonna suck for them. Klyith fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 22:19
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