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Yossarian-22 posted:It originated under an author named Belinsky who believed some people were insufficiently "Russian" and then got picked up by Stalin when he started getting paranoid about Jewish doctors and Yiddish intellectual saboteurs stalin wasn't personally antisemitic and was, himself, skeptical of the so-called doctor's plot. for sure the term is as likely as not to be used as an antisemitic dogwhistle nowadays, but socialist countries have good reason to support nationalism and oppose the sentiment that any place not glutted with imperial spoils is backwards and provincial
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Jul 3, 2021 05:44
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stalin was a zionist
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Jul 3, 2021 05:59
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iosef... rethink this
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Jul 3, 2021 06:04
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:stalin was a zionist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuZDEphRbes
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Jul 3, 2021 06:07
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Epic High Five posted:This is also why Maoism is the only ideology that really has an answer to the international characteristics of capitalism - if you organize the people that capital literally cannot by its nature placate with material comforts (the lumpen and not the middle class) it has no answer by naked displays of violence and cruelty which drive up even more support for revolution. If they start siphoning significant amounts of money out of the urban core and into the peasantlands and flyover country, they'll be contending with a middle class uprising instead maoism is really good stuff but its not a cookie cutter thing. it has to be adopted to local conditions unless you want to look like a larping clown
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Jul 3, 2021 06:47
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Yossarian-22 posted:Oftentimes the most cosmopolitan people are coastal. Hatred for "cosmopolitans" just ends up becoming a proxy for culture war between the true people "of the land" and the "coastal elites." This gets replicated time and time again with one or the other group getting exploited. yeah well the xenophobia can either be explained and channeled by a party against capital or not explained and turned to reactionary violence against minorities antisemitism is the socialism of fools
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Jul 3, 2021 07:08
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Rutibex posted:i'm trying to get someone to sell me on communism. its a materialist philosophy so it should be concerned with what can be accomplished within a single lifetime. so far i'm hearing lots of people argue that i should lay down all of my material and dignity concerns for the good of the revolution and maybe in 1000 years (long after i am dead) we will accomplish some sort of ideal society where my great great grandchildren can live without coercion 
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Jul 3, 2021 07:13
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how do anarchists expect to abolish the police when they can't even grow a community garden?
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Jul 3, 2021 07:18
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Top City Homo posted:maoism is really good stuff but its not a cookie cutter thing. it has to be adopted to local conditions unless you want to look like a larping clown Absolutely, which is why one of my big criticisms of the CCP, Dengist though it may be, is its tepid support of the Naxalites because of the contradictions of trade and revolution I ain't saying it's perfect, I'm just saying there isn't anything else that can even claim to ask the right questions, much less provide potential answers anymore. If the MLs aren't even on the right page anymore and the ortho Marxists are a century behind, what can ya do
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Jul 3, 2021 07:20
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Mantis42 posted:how do anarchists expect to abolish the police when they can't even grow a community garden? lynch mobs aren't police technically and they do all the heavy lifting don't peak behind the curtain is all
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Jul 3, 2021 07:21
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Rutibex posted:i thought anarchists were the ones who didn't want to wait 1000 years for the ideal society so they are trying to figure out how to make it work immediately right this is why anarchists are naive dipshits. the fundamental reordering of society isn’t an “immediate” process it’s not like flicking a loving light switch
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Jul 3, 2021 08:29
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Top City Homo posted:maoism is really good stuff but its not a cookie cutter thing. it has to be adopted to local conditions unless you want to look like a larping clown doesn’t this apply to any flavor of Marxism though
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Jul 3, 2021 08:34
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indigi posted:doesn’t this apply to any flavor of Marxism though maoism especially since uh. even on a global level... there really isn't much of a peasant class anymore. at least in mao and lenin's day there actually were lots of peasants, even in the first world
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Jul 3, 2021 09:26
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Larry Parrish posted:maoism especially since uh. even on a global level... there really isn't much of a peasant class anymore. at least in mao and lenin's day there actually were lots of peasants, even in the first world *30 people control 99% of all wealth across the entire globe* ahhhh yeah well if you think there is a peasant class you are an idiot, you fool you buffoon
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Jul 3, 2021 09:33
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Maoism is more about expanding the Revolutionary class outside of the proletariat. in China this typically took the form of the peasantry but in America it’s more likely the lumpen. Maoisms main departure from mainline Marxism is the idea that classes beside the proles can be revolutionary and the doctrine of the mass line.
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Jul 3, 2021 09:39
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Epic High Five posted:*30 people control 99% of all wealth across the entire globe* ahhhh yeah well if you think there is a peasant class you are an idiot, you fool you buffoon you don't even know what peasants are lol
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Jul 3, 2021 10:52
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Rutibex posted:i want to control the products of my labor 
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Jul 3, 2021 11:20
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Rutibex posted:i want to control the land i need to sustain myself and i want the option to withhold my participation if society is doing things i dont agree with. Usually, the "if you don't like it, go live in the forest," argument is used to own others, not oneself. But it's just as silly to reserve it for yourself as it is to apply it to others. "Withhold my participation in society?" How old are you, anyway?
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Jul 3, 2021 14:00
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Rutibex posted:yes the sustenance of my own life is more important to me than the goals of society You don't just want sustenance, you want sustenance in the precise manner of to choosing with the full consent and non-intervention of society assumed. You want private property under socialism, a contradiction I'm afraid. You can't just withdraw from society. As long as there are two people in this world, social relations, a web of consent, duties, obligations , and privileges exists. You want the privilege of non-interference and the implicit protection of society with none of the duties. You're like the union workers who want to withdraw their dues. *spits* We make fun of the "go live in a forest" liberals because they make that same assumption that by living remotely you completely sever your relation to other people. Sorry to say it doesn't work like that and setting that standard for a socialist society might as well be demanding a proper society would "permit" you to float in the sky.
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Jul 3, 2021 14:30
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PhilippAchtel posted:You don't just want sustenance, you want sustenance in the precise manner of to choosing with the full consent and non-intervention of society assumed. You want private property under socialism, a contradiction I'm afraid. you guys are really lovely at selling socialism. i'm like 99% there and all you can do is call me an idiot
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Jul 3, 2021 14:40
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indigi posted:right this is why anarchists are naive dipshits. the fundamental reordering of society isn’t an “immediate” process it’s not like flicking a loving light switch Generations of state failure and doing the exact same things for hundreds of years with disastrous results but the anarchists are the naive ones lol
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Jul 3, 2021 14:47
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Rutibex posted:you guys are really lovely at selling socialism. i'm like 99% there and all you can do is call me an idiot You're not 99% of the way there if your attitude is "I want to own private property" and "I want to withdraw from society".
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Jul 3, 2021 15:01
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In the ussr they had dachas where people could have a small exurban house with a garden for growing crops for personal consumption. They were nationalized but you could have a garden. You could also have a personal garden in your yard in the ussr because they had essentially similar personal property laws for houses to the usa, and you would own the house. In china they have community gardens where people can grow stuff for themselves in cities. Property rights in china are a little different: you lease the land from the government. I'm pretty sure if you have room for it you could have a garden though. People can grow their own food under communism they just don't own the garden unless it's part of their house, which is personal property. If america had a communist revolution you could probably still produce whatever crops you produce now unless you own a farm or something. Personal property (house with garden) and private property (farm) are different things.
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Jul 3, 2021 15:04
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Rutibex posted:you guys are really lovely at selling socialism. i'm like 99% there and all you can do is call me an idiot "I'd be a socialist if they weren't so loving RUDE to me," are not the words of someone who is 99% there. They're the tired refrain of liberals who've already decided they don't care what is right on wrong, because the standard of truth in their mind is whichever faction pays them the most deference and massages their ego the most.
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Jul 3, 2021 15:05
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Rutibex posted:you guys are really lovely at selling socialism. i'm like 99% there and all you can do is call me an idiot dude he's right. it's a contradiction between what socialism and what you want are. you want to have all these private production resources while still having access to communal resources. the unfortunate truth of life is that you'll never have sole control of anything, even under capitalism. what you want is to be red kaczyinski, and I'm not really sure why, or how or why Marxists are supposed to help you achieve this dream I don't even know why you're so dead set on this garden thing. you ever had a garden? you would be shocked at how much work it takes to do more than have some fresh vegetables on the side. but idk why you're talking about the government regulating your house or something. you seem to be suffering from the delusion that private property is personal property. private property is a farm or factory or industrial vehicle. it's a resource or commodity. personal property is something you own that either doesn't produce anything significant (e.g., a singer sewing machine), a single family home, stuff that is personally yours (clothes etc, arguably most types of consumer vehicle) when people say we want to kill the landlords it isn't so we can give the rent money to the state lol. it's so people can own the homes they live in. Larry Parrish has issued a correction as of 15:10 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 15:05
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Hey [insert ideology here], why don't you setup a state around [insert ideology here], I'm sure it will work well this time!
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Jul 3, 2021 15:10
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Hatebag posted:In the ussr they had dachas where people could have a small exurban house with a garden for growing crops for personal consumption. They were nationalized but you could have a garden. You could also have a personal garden in your yard in the ussr because they had essentially similar personal property laws for houses to the usa, and you would own the house. ok good so all you all guys have to say is "under communism you can have a personal dwelling with a garden and that is yours, you can do what you want with it. obviously you can't have an entire corn field and deny that resource to others but you can participate and have some say in how the big field is run too"
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Jul 3, 2021 15:15
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Larry Parrish posted:I don't even know why you're so dead set on this garden thing. you ever had a garden? you would be shocked at how much work it takes to do more than have some fresh vegetables on the side. but idk why you're talking about the government regulating your house or something. you seem to be suffering from the delusion that private property is personal property. private property is a farm or factory or industrial vehicle. it's a resource or commodity. personal property is something you own that either doesn't produce anything significant (e.g., a singer sewing machine), a single family home, stuff that is personally yours (clothes etc, arguably most types of consumer vehicle) why can't i have enough personal property to grow the food i need to live? that land is going to be used to grow food for me regardless, so why can't i control it and decide what is planted there?
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Jul 3, 2021 15:17
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Rutibex posted:ok good so all you all guys have to say is "under communism you can have a personal dwelling with a garden and that is yours, you can do what you want with it. obviously you can't have an entire corn field and deny that resource to others but you can participate and have some say in how the big field is run too" Yep, that's the difference between personal and private property. You can't own something that is private property or capital good like a farm or an apartment building or a factory under communism but you can own your own personal property like a bicycle or a sybian or a house
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Jul 3, 2021 15:21
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Rutibex posted:why can't i have enough personal property to grow the food i need to live? that land is going to be used to grow food for me regardless, so why can't i control it and decide what is planted there? it's not that you aren't be allowed to, it's that you would most likely die of starvation of malnutrition attempting it. most people can't live off their home gardens. edit: nevermind, realized this bit was talking about taking sections from actual larger agricultural production for personal cultivation. no. bad. Dr. Poz has issued a correction as of 15:26 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 15:22
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Dr. Poz posted:it's not that you aren't be allowed to, it's that you would most likely die of starvation of malnutrition attempting it. most people can't live off their home gardens. ok what if i wanted to take the agricultural land that was assigned to my sustenance and use it for an exotic mushroom farm, so i can trade mushrooms to other people in exchange for the money i need to buy food. just a small facility that is run entirely by me, no employees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ-TCx9xOi4
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Jul 3, 2021 15:29
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Oh if you're trying to grow all your own food by yourself that's probably not realistic. It takes like an acre of good land per person to get enough food and if you were doing that you probably wouldn't have enough time to work a productive job. you'd still need money to buy clothes, fuel, medicine, and other things otherwise you'd be a burden on everyone else. Also that would suck why would you want to do that?
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Jul 3, 2021 15:30
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Rutibex posted:why can't i have enough personal property to grow the food i need to live? that land is going to be used to grow food for me regardless, so why can't i control it and decide what is planted there? If there's a need and you have the aptitude, I don't see why you can't be a farmer if that's what you want. But where does this need to provide for yourself and only for yourself, no one else, come from? Will you be providing your own medical care? Your own fire protection? Your own projection from violent interference? To the extent that you wall yourself off, you're not describing socialism any more, you're just describing frontier capitalism.
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Jul 3, 2021 15:38
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Rutibex posted:ok what if i wanted to take the agricultural land that was assigned to my sustenance and use it for an exotic mushroom farm, so i can trade mushrooms to other people in exchange for the money i need to buy food. just a small facility that is run entirely by me, no employees why do you think there is agricultural land assigned to sustaining you specifically? if you want to grow mushrooms in your garden or in your closet do that then. production at scale is done to satisfy the needs of classes of people, not individuals. otherwise, you're just running a co-op of one which fine i guess but no one can tell you what the process of setting that up post-revolution looks like, if that's what you're fishing for i guess. Dr. Poz has issued a correction as of 15:44 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 15:40
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Rutibex posted:why can't i have enough personal property to grow the food i need to live? that land is going to be used to grow food for me regardless, so why can't i control it and decide what is planted there? because you'll literally need 5 acres of farm land to do that without collective labor and fields. do you understand how massive that is lol. now I live in the mountains so flat space is at a premium, especially soil that's fertile enough to grow staples in. it's an unimaginable waste to not collectivize as much as possible. a garden for yourself is fine. a farm for yourself is not because you lose so much efficiency. especially since there's zero chance your dream involves hand tools and animal power, so that's a bunch of mechanized farm equipment that's being wasted when you aren't using it Larry Parrish has issued a correction as of 15:46 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 15:44
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Hatebag posted:Oh if you're trying to grow all your own food by yourself that's probably not realistic. It takes like an acre of good land per person to get enough food and if you were doing that you probably wouldn't have enough time to work a productive job. you'd still need money to buy clothes, fuel, medicine, and other things otherwise you'd be a burden on everyone else. Also that would suck why would you want to do that? I just don't want a loving boss, I want to run my own workshop and decide how I work and when and what I work on. I also don't want employees so don't call me a capitalist. Can the system accommodate that or must everyone be a cog? Rutibex has issued a correction as of 15:47 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 15:45
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Rutibex posted:I just don't want a loving boss, I want to run my own workshop and decide how I work and when and what I work on. I also don't want employees so don't call me a capitalist. Well there's been agricultural collectives in i think every communist country so you could live on one of those and be a farmer.
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Jul 3, 2021 15:48
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Hatebag posted:Well there's been agricultural collectives in i think every communist country so you could live on one of those and be a farmer. but then everyone is your boss xd
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Jul 3, 2021 15:49
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AnimeIsTrash posted:but then everyone is your boss xd
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Jul 3, 2021 15:51
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Rutibex posted:why can't i have enough personal property to grow the food i need to live? that land is going to be used to grow food for me regardless, so why can't i control it and decide what is planted there? that land might also be being used to grow food for everyone else on the collective farm and everyone in the adjoining city. your personal preference for some specific crop, whether or not that crop takes X% more space and resources to cultivate than whatever's been decided on collectively, is only going to find expression if the resources exist to fulfill everyone's needs and indulge you, and those resources might not exist don't get me wrong - ideally, everyone will have such copious free time and great enough access to the commons that you won't even need to fill out a form to start your own personal farming plot, there'll just be enough stuff available that we don't bother to restrict it. but we might not be so lucky. a socialist government does, indeed, want to provide plentiful resources and free time to everyone in it, but its ability to do that is limited by many contextual circumstances like "how many capitalist states are sniffing at the door" and "how much arable land remains after the one-two punch of climate change and people's war". this means that the concrete promises contemporary or future socialists make to the people in hopes of the people's support can't be predicted with 100% accuracy right now, and anyone who's just absolutely laser-focused on some specific ambition about their own future ("i'm going to run my own little farm" "i'm going to be a propagandist" "i will control my own workshop and barter for all my food" "my role will be anime appraiser") might well be disappointed even if the majority is satisfied and remains on board, and a certain amount of those people is completely inevitable so anyone who really stumps for some preordained personal privilege and threatens to abandon socialism if they aren't sure to get it comes at absolutely no surprise to anybody and is not as worthy of socialists' time and attention as they might hope
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Jul 3, 2021 15:52
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