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I actually like that case (3/2, with the restaurant) a lot, the actual mystery isn't great but it has some of the most memorable and funniest investigation scenes in the series.
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Jul 5, 2021 18:45
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| # ? Jun 5, 2024 20:39 |
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Umineko Episode 5 finished, spoilers: god dammit Ryukishi So that was a hell of a ride, took a while to get going as usual but I was grinning non-stop through the ending. I’m still not completely sold on Bernkastel and Lambdadelta but I think that’s maybe the point? I want Beato back ☹ They’ve pulled off the whole ‘immortal amoral monsters tormenting each other for no reason at all’ thing pretty well. It feels odd after the last megapost but I don’t feel as driven to speculate wildly after this one, maybe because it worked so well as a self-contained episode, but also because the story seems to be increasingly critical of speculation and mystery-solving for its own sake. I really liked the chat between Battler and Dlanor about the implicit trust between reader and author. Without love, it cannot be seen? Well, I love this game, so… A few bits and pieces: it’s interesting/infuriating that even Battler’s triumphant counterattack still doesn’t establish a definitive explanation for the murders in this chapter. After all, once you’ve established that the victims didn’t actually die in the bedroom during the night pretty much everyone is in play as the killer. The only reason Battler puts himself forward as candidate is that he supposedly has a motive, but we know from the previous games that he’s not alone in that. Speaking of that motive, my initial reaction to the man from 19 years ago (needs a catchier name) was to assume he was just a metaphor for Natsuhi’s guilt tormenting her – after all we never have any independent confirmation of the calls, plus I’m pretty sure one happens after the phones are supposedly cut. But if the blackmail wasn’t real, why would she hide herself in a cupboard at the worst possible time? If we assume there was a real caller and it wasn’t Battler, it would have to be someone who knows about the whole dead baby thing, which once again puts the servants in the frame. The thing about Shannon knowing Natsuhi’s favourite season feels almost too obvious, though, but maybe I’m overthinking it. The gold truth in the final showdown was pretty awesome, though I do worry it’s going to overcomplicate the beautiful simplicity of the red truth/blue truth dynamic, especially if they keep on being vague about what the actual practical difference between red and gold is. My guess is that as something only the game master can use, the gold truth is something that needs no explanation because it’s fundamental to the entire scenario. If that’s the case, a seemingly mundane detail like Kinzo being really, 100%, definitely dead must be essential to understanding what’s going on. Maybe Beatrice/the culprit’s plan can only happen if Kinzo is out of the picture? Or it’s a response to his death? Or maybe I’m barking up completely the wrong tree, who knows. Before I embark on Episode 6, I thought I’d put together a list of the Big Questions from my point of view, in no particular order, and where I’m up to with them: - Who is Beatrice, the Golden Witch? Obviously this is the big one. My previous theory was that the spirit of the island/collective imaginary friend was the same entity as the person Battler’s been …battling, but who even knows how the meta-world works at this point. It seems pretty clear we’re meant to connect her to a real person, the capital-C Culprit, who's somehow responsible for everything that happens on the island one way or another. - Who were Beatrice Prime and Beatrice 2, and what happened to them? Where did the gold come from? Not much progress on this one, but I’m guessing Beatrice Prime was some random German or Italian woman who helped Kinzo get his hands on a boatload of Nazi gold, and Beatrice 2 was their daughter. - Who is Beatrice 3? Does she physically exist, and if so why isn’t she present in every game? It’s possible I’m getting too hung up on this one. My working theory is still that she’s Shannon, who may very well be the capital-C Culprit. As for why she doesn’t appear in this one, even though Shannon’s alive until the end, maybe it’s because the riddle was solved, and solved publicly (rather than secretly as in Part 3) which seems to be what Beatrice wants? - Is Beatrice the murderer? So Battler seems to be assuming that there's one culprit responsible for all of the currently unexplained deaths, and that this person is also Beatrice, but I still think some of them have to be down to the Ushiromiyas. Hopefully we’ll see, though the pacing suggests we probably won’t get a full breakdown of all the 50+ murders so far. - What was the sin Battler forgot? So this definitely looks like it was some kind of promise between Battler (which one?) and the real Beatrice, if witch Beatrice’s breakdown when Battler mentions keeping promises is anything to go by. That in turn suggests that the real Beatrice was one of the cousins, Shannon or Kanon (I suppose he could have made a promise to an adult, but come on, this is an anime we’re talking about, childhood promises are a bingo square), and Shannon is already my prime suspect. - Who is Battler? What happened to the original Battler? Battler is Beatrice 2’s son, and the baby given to Natsuhi (which tidies up the double cliff kill – see below). The repeated comparisons between Battler and Kinzo are unfortunately making the  option look more and more likely. I’m guessing he was raised in Kinzo’s orphanage, swapped in for the real Battler 6 years ago but then excluded from the conferences so that nobody would notice until he could have grown enough to be plausibly unrecognizable. As for why, you got me.- Why does everyone on the island die when the game ends? How does Eva escape? I think this one is reasonably straightforward – there’s some mechanism in the mansion like a bomb or gas that kills everyone at midnight on the second day. We’re repeatedly told in Part 4 that Eva was found in Kuwadorian, so presumably that's a safe zone. - What’s going on in 1998? Who sent the bottle messages, and the messages to the victims’ children? When did Ange die? What did Ange see in the boatman’s house? Got to admit, I’m not massively invested in the 1998 story now that it’s wrapped up. The bank account messages were presumably the culprit trying to compensate/apologize to the innocent descendants of the victims. I’ve already said my theory about Ange’s death. Big  on the last one.- What actually happened with Natsuhi’s baby? How is it linked to Beatrice 2’s death? Does the man from 19 years ago actually exist? See above for the last one. I realized after my last post that that the whole thing makes sense if we assume the baby is Beatrice’s child: Beatrice 2 gives birth to baby (?Battler), Beatrice 2 dies by cliff (witnessed by Rosa), Kinzo attempts to give baby to Natsuhi, baby also dies by cliff, Kinzo loses his mind because his only link to Beatrice is gone. - What are Rudolf and Kyrie up to? This isn’t a big mystery, but it’s interesting to me that they’re the only two adults whose motivations are still unclear. Presumably this will become clear if/when we find out what happened with the two Battlers. early episode 6 edit: how are we still talking about cheese jfc Gato fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jul 5, 2021 |
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Jul 5, 2021 20:20
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Finished Umineko episode 5 (looks like just at the right time  ). Going to write this before looking at Gato's thoughts.I was waiting on posting until after Knox's rules were all listed (and they avoid talking about rule 5), but oops it turns out that's only in the post-episode tips section. I was waiting for someone to explain the rules to Battler and go "we don't talk about rule 5" all game. Anyway, this episode felt a little weird since I knew going in that it was partially a response to people saying they couldn't figure things out from the first 4 episodes. I had more specific thoughts at one point but I forgot them since, I really should have written them down. I found it funny that they brought up Japanese riddles being impossible for someone using a translation dictionary, since that's about the conclusion I came to on solving the epitaph. After the hint that Kinzo, being a big nerd, would use English (or at least Latin characters) as part of his riddle, I gave it another shot, but I can't help shake the feeling that some level of knowledge of Japanese is needed for some step, or at least Japanese geography for finding his hometown. I remember finding a town southwest of Odawara that contains all the letters in "kinzo" (under the assumption that "those who remain shall praise my noble name" means at the third twilight the remaining characters are an anagram of kinzo), but it has the wrong number of characters. I feel extremely called out by Virgilia saying people tend not to want to think about things until they know they have enough facts available to solve things. Erika sucks and I hate her!!! I don't want to have her show up again for episode 6!!! Go away you awful child!!! Hopefully she's toned down a bit next time. I'm confused as to what exactly the, I guess "cosmology", of the world is now? Before I thought the "game board" was "reality", and for all of Beato's loving around she doesn't interfere directly, but now Bern can directly place Erika into the story, who knows about the meta-game and directly mentions it in-game, though everyone has no idea what she's talking about and ignores it. Having the meta-players be able to interact directly seems against how I thought it worked, where Beato says there's a Beatrice on the island responsible for the crimes but doesn't directly intervene in undeniable fashion. It mainly bothers me because of Lambda claiming to be the one phoning Natsuhi. Before, I would take it as her taking credit for an existing phone call made by a human, but if Erika can directly know about red truth and that she's "the detective", who's to say the phone calls aren't actually directly from Lambda? I have the "love" that Ryu07 wouldn't introduce an intriguing plot point like Natsuhi getting mysterious blackmail calls only to say "actually the calls were just Lambda", but it does seem in keeping with "throw chess pieces at each other" mess that is game 5 that Lambda is just dropping phone calls in from the meta-dimension to gently caress with people. Bringing up the question of whether Beato's game meets Knox's rules without stating one way or the other makes me think the answer is "mostly yes, with some exceptions". The big one would be red truth, while a lot of it is giving Battler detective's authority to say that someone is really dead or the like, there's definitely some in there that violate Knox's 2nd. You don't say "the point where the detective says they've figured it out is where the author wants the reader to try and find the answer" and then have Battler say he's figured it out if you don't want people to solve it, so I'm going to try and solve it, just, hopefully not in an Erika-like fashion. Actually, I'm not sure what exactly Erika is meant to be saying beyond "don't use mysteries as a way of bragging about how much smarter you are than everyone". The whole "intellectual rapist" thing (and Battler getting mad about Bern removing Beatrice from Natsuhi's flashback) seems like it's about trying to solve things that should remain unsolved, but as they say in early ????, authors write mysteries because they want the reader to solve them. I'm not sure if I'm thinking too hard about this and she's really just a stand-in for elitist readers. So let's look at my previous theory, "Beatrice III 'exists' and killed and replaced Kanon". Knox's 10th kind of blows this wide open, I could look for clues to justify it, but let's be real, this theory was always kind of flimsy. I wanted to have a theory before reading episode 5, but also wanted to read episode 5 soon, and so I posted the first theory I had that seemed to hold some water. I will say though, it is very suspicious that we have a character known to walk silently and show up behind people without them noticing, and now a murderer who appears silently behind Hideyoshi without him noticing. How this fits with Kanon supposedly being in the parlor with everyone else I don't know, but it's suspicious! In the big fight between Battler and Dlanor, it's established that a) Battler is the detective for the first 4 games and b) Battler lying about seeing Kinzo in game 5 is evidence that he's not the detective. Therefore, Battler seeing Beatrice in game 4 isn't a metaphor for him seeing a person who has Beatrice's role (Erika would probably say it was Natsuhi), he did in fact see someone who looked like Beatrice. This doesn't fully deny the possibility he saw someone dressed as Beatrice (again, Erika would say Natsuhi), since only Kinzo gets red-text "no impostor" privileges, but it feels like good evidence that Beatrice 'exists!' (Battler seeing a bunch of magic at the end of episode 2 is explained by saying that by that point, the Battler we see is meta-Battler, who is allowed to see magic, not piece-Battler. Not sure if the threshold is the scene where Battler's getting drunk or the moment Battler enters the study, the main difference being whether Genji telling Battler to come to the study where all will be revealed is real or not) Battler being the murderer in episode 5 doesn't work because Virgilia red-texted that Battler is never the murderer, but let's sidestep that. What exactly is Battler's theory about the deaths? Is he saying that he yelled, getting Erika out to check her seals, and then killed them before anyone else showed up, or did he never actually kill anyone, with the family going along with Battler's plan to fake their deaths to trick Erika, and then they die sometime between then and the trial? Actually, thinking about it, I like that theory. Battler isn't the murderer, since he's only behind the fake murders, with the real murders being able to happen by anyone at any point later, and it involves everyone in the family getting together to plot a way to gently caress with Erika. I dismissed "everyone is working together to gently caress with Battler" because who's going to allow themselves to be killed over that, but here the plan doesn't involve any actual deaths, up until the real murderer shows up to ruin things. I say that, but if Battler's the 19-year-old baby but isn't the murderer, why would he tell Natsuhi to wait in the closet? I could continue to think about the identity of the 19-year-old baby (or the person claiming to be the 19-year-old baby, at least), but I want to actually finish writing this post soon. I think, despite trying to avoid it because these games are loooooong, I'm going to have to reread episodes 1-4 if I want to really theorize. I'll leave off with a scene I remember that seems weird: what was up with the scene in episode 2 where Kinzo asks Shannon to transcribe his will and says he'll explain everything to her (before the camera cuts away because of course it does), considering both he and Natsuhi are dead at that point? Actually, I lied, I'll leave off with this: Gaius Marius posted:Voice acting is bad <Die the Death!> <Sentence to Death!> <Great Equalizer is The Death!>
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Jul 5, 2021 23:35
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Erika is in fact the best. Let's all love Erika Furudo.
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Jul 5, 2021 23:42
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I do not care for Erika furudou
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Jul 5, 2021 23:42
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Erika rules, without her the latter half of Umineko would be far less fun.
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Jul 6, 2021 00:38
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Jul 6, 2021 01:16
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I like Erika's existence, she's fun and hateable, a better villain than just like "people who are dicks' like Krauss or what have you
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Jul 6, 2021 01:18
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Krause is a goddamn visionary
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Jul 6, 2021 01:19
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Gaius Marius posted:Krause is a goddamn visionary well you've read more than I have, maybe he does something interesting later (or unbeknownst to me at this time) I mean I know the game is about like cycles of abuse and people who are products of their environment and all but most all of the adults are just awful in one way or another
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Jul 6, 2021 01:20
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He's got some big deals coming in. The best deals.
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Jul 6, 2021 01:25
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If Umineko took place 30 years later Krauss would 100% be a bitcoin guy
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Jul 6, 2021 01:27
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Jul 6, 2021 01:31
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"Is Kinzo a libertarian" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate
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Jul 6, 2021 01:40
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2024, Feel The Bern
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Jul 6, 2021 01:43
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lmao
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Jul 6, 2021 02:11
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Nate RFB posted:Erika is in fact the best. Let's all love Erika Furudo. In fact those who don't love Erika should be probated for thread derailment.
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Jul 6, 2021 02:42
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Maybe it’s because I played through four Trails/Kiseki games in two months but Utawarerumono MoD/MoT is giving me major Trails vibes. Also some Suikoden vibes. Loving these games.
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Jul 6, 2021 03:31
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Mask of Deception in particular puts a huge focus on showing you how the world works in all its nuances, down to the very specific methods of preparing food and what not, so I could see drawing a parallel to Trails world building in that way
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Jul 6, 2021 03:44
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Procrastine posted:If Umineko took place 30 years later Krauss would 100% be a bitcoin guy erika would have a youtube channel "idiot child gets DESTROYED by facts and logic"
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Jul 6, 2021 06:30
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Stexils posted:erika would have a youtube channel lol ben furudo-sama the boy genius
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Jul 6, 2021 06:34
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Anyone have thoughts on Silver Case 2425? It sounded familiar and I checked my shelf and I bought the PS4 version of the first game a while back. But now that game and the sequel will be collected on the Switch. And I prefer VNs in bed. I'm thinking of picking it up.
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Jul 6, 2021 07:05
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Speaking of Umineko, going back and watching some of the earlier chapters sure casts some of it in a different light, doesn't it? (Umineko full endgame spoilers, kind of, mostly, don't read it) Kanon showing his "sword" to Jessica and Beatrice belittling it as not being able to cut anything and him as having revealed himself as a "subhuman", oof. 
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Jul 6, 2021 11:26
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Just wait till you get back to the scene where Kanon shows everyone his wound!
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Jul 6, 2021 11:42
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I haven't touched Ciconia at all, how is that turning out? Worth getting in ground-ish floor on?
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Jul 6, 2021 13:53
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I mean it's at the exact place it was on release
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Jul 6, 2021 14:03
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Hopefully someone has played it since then and can give some opinions on it.
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Jul 6, 2021 14:04
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Ciconia rules.
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Jul 6, 2021 14:06
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It was good but it's basically only just started and there's still no confirmation on when the series will resume. I think it'd probably worth waiting until there's at least a date for the second one.
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Jul 6, 2021 14:06
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It was good but it's basically only just started and there's still no confirmation on when the series will resume. I think it'd probably worth waiting until there's at least a date for the second one. Speaking as someone who really loves Ciconia, I think this is your best bet. It's really dense (particularly because it's planned for four installments rather than eight) and it'd be easy to forget things if you don't have Phase 2 fairly soon after Phase 1.
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Jul 6, 2021 14:08
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Speaking of Umineko, going back and watching some of the earlier chapters sure casts some of it in a different light, doesn't it? (Umineko full endgame spoilers, kind of, mostly, don't read it) Kanon showing his "sword" to Jessica and Beatrice belittling it as not being able to cut anything and him as having revealed himself as a "subhuman", oof. Episode 2 is really not subtle about it.
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Jul 6, 2021 14:47
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ciconia is the best. things feel more confident, its willing to jump into things way more quickly. lgbt stuff is more at the forefront this one too.
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Jul 6, 2021 15:15
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So, I've been going through Baldr Sky, and just finished the first half (the first 3 routes), and I do have to say that I have been enjoying it a good deal. I like the main cast in particular.
Miscellaneous things I like:
Miscellaneous things I don't like
Oh wow that is a whole lot of redaction. Woops.
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Jul 7, 2021 00:41
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So after finishing Utawarerumono MoD/MoT I’m going through withdrawal because of how much I absolutely loved these characters, including how funny they could be. They’re probably one of my favorite cast of any game, VN or otherwise. Up there with the Mass Effect gang. So what’s another VN that people can recommend that has really great characters and chemistry, with a lot of heart and humor? It can be any genre. I’ve already played Umineko/Higurashi Steins Gate / Chaos Child Fata Morgana Zero Escape/ AI/ Ever 17/ Remember 11 Ace Attorney 13 Sentinels (though that’s more an adventure game) Danganrompa Hatoful Boyfriend
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Jul 7, 2021 23:55
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theblackw0lf posted:So what’s another VN that people can recommend that has really great characters and chemistry, with a lot of heart and humor? It can be any genre. I think Baldr Sky so far has good character chemistry and has some nice slice of life moments.
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Jul 8, 2021 00:08
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Waltzing Along posted:Anyone have thoughts on Silver Case 2425? It sounded familiar and I checked my shelf and I bought the PS4 version of the first game a while back. But now that game and the sequel will be collected on the Switch. And I prefer VNs in bed. I'm thinking of picking it up. I like it, but with some caveats. I haven't tried it on the Switch specifically. On the plus side, there are some strong moments in the writing, the blending of graphical styles is interesting, and the music is great. On the other, it's a pretty slow boil (not exceptionally slow by VN standards), the writing can be borderline incomprehensible at times, and it can be hard to see what's going on sometimes. There is an exceptionally boring segment in decoyman that gets repeated while being about three times as long in lifecut (I think the first and last chapters, I don't 100% remember). It's got a very suda story, for better or worse. If you could get past how flimsy say, Killer7's story was in places for how strong it was in others, you'll probably like Silver Case. Acerbatus fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 00:16
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theblackw0lf posted:So what’s another VN that people can recommend that has really great characters and chemistry, with a lot of heart and humor? It can be any genre. Shibuya Shuffle should work. Slightly outside the strict VN definition, Pyre is a good one for Mass Effect vibes, and Tales From Borderlands is great.
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Jul 8, 2021 00:28
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theblackw0lf posted:So after finishing Utawarerumono MoD/MoT I’m going through withdrawal because of how much I absolutely loved these characters, including how funny they could be. They’re probably one of my favorite cast of any game, VN or otherwise. Up there with the Mass Effect gang. i've found the cast of Your Turn To Die is overall well written and likeable. its a death game and unfinished but even when there's confrontations, scheming, or people acting extremely irrationally its for understandable reasons and character motivations rather than people being petty idiots (as opposed to, like, "i know there's a murderer on the loose and four people are dead BUT I MUST USE THE BATHROOM ALONE"). disclaimer: i've only finished chapter 1 but i haven't seen anyone complaining about it going to poo poo in later chapters so e: corrected the name Stexils fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 00:32
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Stexils posted:"i know there's a murderer on the loose and four people are dead BUT I MUST USE THE BATHROOM ALONE" Ryukishi07! 
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Jul 8, 2021 00:36
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was that actually a part of umineko? i honestly don't remember it's been years since i played them
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Jul 8, 2021 00:37
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