#metoo and the impact of rape culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > #metoo and the impact of rape culture

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Rashad already walked back her statement & apologized.

Bill "pull ~~down her~~ up your pants" Cosby isn't known for being a lefty so I doubt right-wing media gives much of a poo poo one way or another.

# ? Jul 8, 2021 19:51

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 06:36

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

There's been some reaction in some of the more devoted pockets of "redpillism", Ben Garrison had some pretty bog standard stuff to say that is more banal than offensive...until you read the very last sentence (spoilered for content because that last line re: Weinstein really is a loving doozy) :

Billy Cosby was released from prison. After all, the feminists had no concrete evidence against the man—just a ‘me too’ pile on. Maybe Weinstein will be sprung next.

I presume Rashad will be treated as a victim of a cancel culture pressure campaign that's akshually a show of how racist the tolerant left is, the whole Candace Owens shtick - and maybe I'm overthinking it but whether it's a consensual media blitz or not could be a bit of a revealing look at media attitudes towards women in general.

# ? Jul 8, 2021 20:17

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

indiscriminately posted:

How has right-wing outrage clickbait media been using the Cosby situation? I'm wondering if he will be a pariah for the rest of his life or if he will achieve a place in the Trump Republican pantheon, which he will surely attempt to do.

The right-wing media thread discussed it, but Fox is exuberant over the ruling and hailing it as a victory for men everywhere and a defeat for feminism and #MeToo

It's interesting the difference between how happy they are about this versus how mad they were when OJ got away with murder in the 90s.

I guess wealthy black men being able to buy the courts like wealthy white men have forever was a new and threatening thing in the 90s but now they're used to it. Or maybe they feel less threatened by the prospect of rich guys being tried for murder than for sexual assault because most of them probably don't have bodies in their basement.

# ? Jul 8, 2021 20:56

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

VitalSigns posted:

The right-wing media thread discussed it, but Fox is exuberant over the ruling and hailing it as a victory for men everywhere and a defeat for feminism and #MeToo

It's interesting the difference between how happy they are about this versus how mad they were when OJ got away with murder in the 90s.

I guess wealthy black men being able to buy the courts like wealthy white men have forever was a new and threatening thing in the 90s but now they're used to it. Or maybe they feel less threatened by the prospect of rich guys being tried for murder than for sexual assault because most of them probably don't have bodies in their basement.

Hasn't Cosby always been popular among conservatives due to the "telling other black people to stop being lazy" stuff?

# ? Jul 8, 2021 21:34

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

VitalSigns posted:

The right-wing media thread discussed it, but Fox is exuberant over the ruling and hailing it as a victory for men everywhere and a defeat for feminism and #MeToo

It's interesting the difference between how happy they are about this versus how mad they were when OJ got away with murder in the 90s.

I guess wealthy black men being able to buy the courts like wealthy white men have forever was a new and threatening thing in the 90s but now they're used to it. Or maybe they feel less threatened by the prospect of rich guys being tried for murder than for sexual assault because most of them probably don't have bodies in their basement.

For a certain section of society it is supremely important that rich guys always be able to escape consequences. Because if they can't, then a whole bunch of old criminal rich guys can't just do anything that they want and might actually face consequences some day, which gets treated as a worse thing than any offences they actually committed. You see this play out with how the reaction to even the suggestion that there should be consequences gets met with more outrage often than someone actually facing consequences.

Also the oj trial hit a whole different racial dynamic cuz his wife was white and feelings wrt OJ's guilt were fairly split along racial lines

# ? Jul 8, 2021 22:15

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I think to some degree there is also like a weird aspirationalness with the discourse around men and rape and the risk of being falsely accused. Like something you'll hear is how men have to be careful now when they try to sleep with a woman. Like this fear of dudes going out to bars and just trying to have a fun time but any little thing being misconstrued. It's a bullshit argument on many levels, but for most men that's not actually that big of an issue because the average person only has sex with like 6-8 people.

For the vast majority of people, the times they are initiating sex with a new sexual partner are very, very low over the course of your life. Not that rape can't happen in relationships of course, but more the idea that some hot blooded man on the prowl is going to get screwed over by some random lady on one of their nightly conquests is pretty divorced from how most people live.

So, when you get a guy like Cosby on top of relating to a man who has more money and power than they'll ever actually have, you have men basically pretending that our out of control war against men puts people like them who are of course having or had sex with many, many women in danger. And of course you can be a dude who has had many partners and not be lovely, but the idea of status in sexual conquest is toxic and adds another layer of normal people cheerleading wealthy ghouls.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jul 14, 2021

# ? Jul 8, 2021 23:28

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Timeless Appeal posted:

I think to some degree there is also like a weird aspirationalness with the discourse around men and rape and the risk of being falsely accused. Like something you'll hear is how men have to be careful now when they to sleep with a woman. Like this fear of dudes going out to bars and just trying to have a fun time but any little thing being misconstrued. It's a bullshit argument on many levels, but for most men that's not actually that big of an issue because the average person only has sex with like 6-8 people.

For the vast majority of people, the times they are initiating sex with a new sexual partner are very, very low over the course of your life. Not that rape can't happen in relationships of course, but more the idea that some hot blooded man on the prowl is going to get screwed over by some random lady on one of their nightly conquests is pretty divorced from how most people live.

So, when you get a guy like Cosby on top of relating to a man who has more money and power that they'll ever actually have, you have men basically pretending that our out of control war against men puts people like them who are of course having or had sex with many, many women in danger. And of course you can be a dude who has had many partners and not be lovely, but the idea of status in sexual conquest is toxic and adds another layer of normal people cheerleading wealthy ghouls.

This is a super good point

It's also given me an idea for a new PSA campaign, working title "That Could Be Me?" Haha Cmon Dude Get Real

# ? Jul 9, 2021 02:59

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Mellow Seas posted:

Literally nobody is defending Castor�s handling of the case. (Even by the ridiculous standard of straw manning that goes on here �libs� should hate Castor because of our alleged sole principle in life, �orange man bad�.)

The judge�s decision was defensible BECAUSE Castor�s actions were not. Who the gently caress has said anything positive about Castor�s handling of the case? Even at the time of the criminal trial it was widely known he had hosed with the case almost beyond repair. (And it ultimately turned out there was no �almost� about it.)

I thought this was obvious but: the way in which he hosed with the case matters.

If he beat a confession out of Cosby then it might make sense to say "well we have to let Cosby off now because Castor hosed with the case trying to get him convicted". On the other hand if he tried to protect Cosby by attacking his victim, downplaying the assault, constantly lying about poo poo, etc in order to protect a wealthy rapist, it's pretty gross to go "oh well he hosed with the case so much in order to get a wealthy rapist off that we just have to help him get a wealthy rapist off now". Is that the public policy we want to encourage? If a cop wants to get his criminal friend off, should the cop just be able to make an illegal immunity deal with him so the courts will let the guy off as a "rebuke" to the cop who wanted that outcome from the beginning?

Also, Castor's credibility is important because the only evidence we have for this alleged secret oral agreement that contradicted his public statements made at the time and for years afterward, is Castor's word a decade later that it existed, because the only other person who was purportedly present when the deal was made is dead now. So if he's a huge liar, has a record of protecting and defending rapists from consequences both before and after this case, and was clearly hostile to the victim when this supposed deal to help her was allegedly made, we might not want to take his word that this secret unrecorded deal ever existed! Incidentally, that's exactly what the trial court found: that Castor's claims that a secret deal existed weren't credible.

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jul 9, 2021

# ? Jul 9, 2021 06:14

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

This New York Time piece on trends in Egyptian authorities abusing power to essentially rape and sexually assault women is very harrowing and worth exploring. I know the paywall sucks, but not linking specific text because it's a whole multi-media thing that I think is worth finagling with. The site also makes the purposeful decision of allowing you hear these women's voices despite language barriers.

While it creates a narrative of a history of abuse during examinations and searches including women being complicit and even initiating such things, it is also worth exploring for its first person narratives of brave women speaking about their experiences. It's also a reminder of how rape and abuse are used as tools against dissent and rebellion.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jul 9, 2021

# ? Jul 9, 2021 15:57

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Timeless Appeal posted:

For the vast majority of people, the times they are initiating sex with a new sexual partner are very, very low over the course of your life. Not that rape can't happen in relationships of course, but more the idea that some hot blooded man on the prowl is going to get screwed over by some random lady on one of their nightly conquests is pretty divorced from how most people live.

This is an amazing point, and since politics is downstream of culture, it bears some reflection on how the sex lives of unmarried people are presented in popular culture, where somebody who doesn�t have dozens of sexual partners is treated like some weird curiosity. We let so much of the narratives we expect from our lives come from TV writers, whose lives are nothing like most people�s (they are wealthy, they live in LA, they have tons of free time, more neurotic than average, etc).

VitalSigns posted:

Also, Castor's credibility is important because the only evidence we have for this alleged secret oral agreement that contradicted his public statements made at the time and for years afterward, is Castor's word a decade later that it existed, because the only other person who was purportedly present when the deal was made is dead now. So if he's a huge liar, has a record of protecting and defending rapists from consequences both before and after this case, and was clearly hostile to the victim when this supposed deal to help her was allegedly made, we might not want to take his word that this secret unrecorded deal ever existed! Incidentally, that's exactly what the trial court found: that Castor's claims that a secret deal existed weren't credible.

Ah, sorry, I get your point now.

# ? Jul 9, 2021 16:54

indiscriminately: Jan 19, 2007

I'm still wondering about Phylicia Rashad. For me The Cosby Show was formative and Rashad is/was Claire Huxtable, the archetype of a stern but wise and fair mother figure. Now she is a dean at a university, a position of influence which leverages this same Claire Huxtable image. She has this position because she is an accomplished public person perceived to be wise and fair. In her position as a dean her decision-making purview may cover interpersonal situations on the spectrum of the things Cosby has done (right?), and it turns out she has a blindspot or at best extremely poor instincts about #metoo. Likely she has social and professional ties to upper-class parents of some young men currently attending her university. And also to male professors. Can she continue to hold a deanship with legitimacy / can she still be an exemplar of wisdom and fairness?

My feeling is that she must step down from public duties, there's no plausible reform after "A terrible wrong is being righted- a miscarriage of justice is corrected!" because hoo boy that's a doozy. I think it's similar to disliking Hillary Clinton because of her close, persisting political alliance with Bill Clinton.

# ? Jul 9, 2021 20:22

Cranappleberry: Jan 27, 2009

That's a good point.

From experience, deans and assistant deans exist on a spectrum. The good ones, at least in this dimension, will be clued in about mental illness and sexual assault and how to recognize the signs and also deal with it, not just by covering for themselves and the school, either. They should actually help if they can. It comes from education but also experience. There are best practices to deal with it but also different approaches. What she said is a slap in the face to victims everywhere.

Her coming out publicly and saying the fact that this guy with a ton of influence and money got off on a technicality (inasmuch one exists yet might have been created for him personally) despite tons of evidence and a confession and now he can't be retried is a good thing.

And I can't reckon with how that squares with her job of dealing with students, parents, faculty and STAFF without it being a massive blind spot as you said. It's not a public relations problem, either. The most important things sexual assault survivors need is to be in control, believed and, if they want, justice. All of that was taken from them in this case.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 03:04

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

After having such a deep, long lasting and rewarding professional connection with someone, it's somewhat understandable that Rashad would come to his defense, if partly just to avoid the cognitive dissonance of realizing that she trusted and respected someone for so long who didn't deserve it. But being understandable doesn't mean it's defensible. I don't see how her academic career could survive this.

It shows poor judgement in some areas that are really crucial to a dean's role. Like, would she also feel that a student who was widely respected and/or important to student life at Howard deserved the same deference? Because that would be really bad.

Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jul 10, 2021

# ? Jul 10, 2021 05:09

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

Mellow Seas posted:

After having such a deep, long lasting and rewarding professional connection with someone, it's somewhat understandable that Rashad would come to his defense, if partly just to avoid the cognitive dissonance of realizing that she trusted and respected someone for so long who didn't deserve it. But being understandable doesn't mean it's defensible. I don't see how her academic career could survive this.

It shows poor judgement in some areas that are really crucial to a dean's role. Like, would she also feel that a student who was widely respected and/or important to student life at Howard deserved the same deference? Because that would be really bad.

It shouldn't survive this, but it 'could' and frankly will, for basically the same reason that cosby got off in the first place.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 05:14

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

indiscriminately posted:

I'm still wondering about Phylicia Rashad. For me The Cosby Show was formative and Rashad is/was Claire Huxtable, the archetype of a stern but wise and fair mother figure. Now she is a dean at a university, a position of influence which leverages this same Claire Huxtable image. She has this position because she is an accomplished public person perceived to be wise and fair. In her position as a dean her decision-making purview may cover interpersonal situations on the spectrum of the things Cosby has done (right?), and it turns out she has a blindspot or at best extremely poor instincts about #metoo. Likely she has social and professional ties to upper-class parents of some young men currently attending her university. And also to male professors. Can she continue to hold a deanship with legitimacy / can she still be an exemplar of wisdom and fairness?

My feeling is that she must step down from public duties, there's no plausible reform after "A terrible wrong is being righted- a miscarriage of justice is corrected!" because hoo boy that's a doozy. I think it's similar to disliking Hillary Clinton because of her close, persisting political alliance with Bill Clinton.

You... seem to have an almost mythic view of how a Dean operates? I mean, from a purely cynical point of view, you yourself pointed out she has "social and professional ties to upper-class parents of some young men currently attending her university." and we've seen time and again, if there's one thing rich people want from an expensive educational institution, it's a faculty and management willing to go the distance to make sure their sons never face any consequences for the poo poo they do. Coming out and saying what she did about Cosby is honestly probably going to be great for business?

# ? Jul 10, 2021 05:32

indiscriminately: Jan 19, 2007

Google says 70% of Howard University students are women so most of the school's tuition income comes from parents of daughters. But I get the cynicism and agree with the thrust of what you said.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 17:34

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/nyregion/cuomo-investigation-harassment.html

quote:

Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo is expected to be questioned on Saturday by investigators from the New York State attorney general�s office, signaling that a four-month-long inquiry into several sexual harassment accusations may be entering its final stages.

Joon H. Kim and Anne L. Clark, the two outside lawyers hired to lead the investigation that is being overseen by Letitia James, the state attorney general, are expected to interview the governor in Albany, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The lawyers have spent months gathering hours of testimony from several women who have accused Mr. Cuomo of sexual misconduct or harassment. The lawyers have also in recent weeks interviewed senior administration officials in preparation for questioning the governor.

They have subpoenaed and collected troves of records, including state documents, emails and text messages, as they scrutinize the women�s accounts and examine whether Mr. Cuomo and his staff broke any laws in dealing with sexual harassment complaints.

Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Jul 16, 2021

# ? Jul 16, 2021 04:12

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Willa Rogers posted:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/nyregion/cuomo-investigation-harassment.html

What's the actual possible legal outcomes here? Because from what I'm reading, it seems like the strongest possible result of all this investigating and gathering testimony and so on is going to be someone calling a press conference to say "yeah it definitely seems like his staff mishandled some complaints. Lessons will be learned. Okay thanks everyone for coming out today."?

# ? Jul 16, 2021 04:43

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

This will end with Cuomo having a beer with all of the women in a touching moment of forgiveness and understanding

# ? Jul 16, 2021 05:07

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

What's the actual possible legal outcomes here? Because from what I'm reading, it seems like the strongest possible result of all this investigating and gathering testimony and so on is going to be someone calling a press conference to say "yeah it definitely seems like his staff mishandled some complaints. Lessons will be learned. Okay thanks everyone for coming out today."?

Impeachment would probably be as far is it goes unless there is more than the harassment and grooming we've seen. I'm doubtful of the impeachment angle, but not absolutely. I think if they found quid pro quo for example chances would be stronger. But yeah, I think some public shaming and then just trying to push through his term is probably most likely, sadly. His big punishment will be not running a failed presidential campaign which is more of a favor really, but he'll still complain about it because a man not getting exactly what he wants is the biggest tragedy in America.

I think the big thing about the Cuomo stuff is that the harassment is being lumped in with the nursing home stuff and misappropriating funds. In short, Cuomo getting any consequence is rooted in the question of if Cuomo misused his power for personal gain in general. Warped numbers to look better and misused money. That's why I feel like him being generally a lovely creep is probably going to be written off unless he straight up raped someone or clearly used his power for sexual favors. Being a sex creep in general is kinda secondary to the abuse of power which is lovely on multiple levels.

Ytlaya posted:

This will end with Cuomo having a beer with all of the women in a touching moment of forgiveness and understanding

Willa Rogers posted:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/nyregion/cuomo-investigation-harassment.html

It's a serious topic that I think deserves more effort than an emoji and confusing satire that casts brave women speaking out against their abuser as props.

V Then make the status update without an emoji that makes the topic look like a joke. There are actual people taking risks to seek justice regardless of how unlikely that justice might seem. V

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jul 16, 2021

# ? Jul 16, 2021 15:06

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

I've made plenty of effort posts about Cuomo in this thread & others.

Yesterday's post was a status update of the state's investigation, and I'm not sure how much further discussion that warrants till either his testimony is published and/or leaked, or till James announces the results, and whether there will be an indictment.

eta: I'll edit out the emoji.

Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Jul 16, 2021

# ? Jul 16, 2021 15:15

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Willa Rogers posted:

I've made plenty of effort posts about Cuomo in this thread & others.

Yesterday's post was a status update of the state's investigation, and I'm not sure how much further discussion that warrants till either his testimony is published and/or leaked, or till James announces the results, and whether there will be an indictment.

eta: I'll edit out the emoji.

I appreciate that a lot and thank you for listening.

# ? Jul 16, 2021 15:37

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Moving away from the realm of powerful men, the Times ran this piece that paints a picture of what many normal victims go through, and it is pretty horrifying

quote:

Most New York City prosecutors� offices rejected a greater percentage of sex crime cases in 2019, the last year for which reliable data is available, than they did roughly a decade earlier, before the case against Harvey Weinstein touched off a national reckoning.

In the Manhattan district attorney�s office, prosecutors dropped 49 percent of sexual assault cases in 2019 � among the highest rates in the city, and an increase from 37 percent in 2017, state data shows. Only the Bronx rejected a greater percentage of cases. The data excludes most sex crimes against children, and certain nonviolent offenses like stalking.

The low prosecution rate partly reflects the inherent challenges of prosecuting sexual assault, particularly cases like Ms. Duong�s, in which the attacker is not a stranger and alcohol is involved. For cases that are not dropped, conviction rates for sexual assault cases are typically much lower than for other violent crimes: 44 percent in Manhattan in 2019, compared with 79 percent for first-degree murder.

I don't love the "despite Metoo" headline as that's not really the movement's job, and it sort of buries the lead on these disgusting numbers playing a role in the recent primary election for DA.

quote:

Alvin Bragg, a former federal prosecutor who won the Democratic primary for district attorney, making him the heavy favorite to succeed Mr. Vance, has promised to revamp the office�s beleaguered sex crimes bureau.

Mr. Bragg, in an interview, said he planned to �reboot� the sex crimes bureau �from the ground up,� by assessing its leadership and staff with input from survivors. He said he also intended to evaluate why certain cases are rejected, and that the likelihood of a conviction should not be a determining factor.

Of course these are all just campaign promises.

But I feel like the following anecdote was really worth relaying because it really gives up the game of how rape victims are treated...

quote:

t was Sept. 30, 2017, and the woman, then a graduate student at Fordham University, had been drinking heavily at her sorority�s party at a venue in Brooklyn. She said she recalled trying to help a drunk friend in the bathroom, when, she said, a male friend came in and raped her. (The Times does not publish the names of rape victims unless they choose to be identified.)

Later that night, she said, she woke up to the man raping her again while choking her in his room at City College in Manhattan, where he was a student. She said that she did not remember how she got there from the party, and that the man was recording her with his cellphone.

When she realized what was happening, she said, she grabbed the phone and ran into the bathroom. She then showed the video to another student, Carlos Colon, who had been in the next room. After seeing the video, Mr. Colon fought with the man, and was later charged with assault. Mr. Colon said in an interview that the woman had appeared to be unresponsive in the video.

Soon after the encounter with the woman, the man spoke by phone with one of his fraternity brothers, who recorded the call and provided it to The Times. During that call, the student admitted to filming the woman, and said that was where he had �messed up.� He later told his fraternity brothers that he had had sex with the woman while she was asleep, two of them said in interviews.

The woman reported the attack, but during the three-month investigation that followed, she said prosecutors seemed skeptical. They asked her how much she had had to drink, why she did not fight back and whether she had wanted to cheat on her boyfriend, she said.

Prosecutors told the woman that the intoxication she described did not constitute being �physically helpless� under the state�s law and that they could not prove that she did not consent, according to a recording of the conversation. They never found the video.

...

In January 2018, a judge granted prosecutors� request to dismiss the case against the City College student. Through his public defender, the student declined to comment on the case.

But the Fordham student was not the only woman to accuse him of rape.

In defending Mr. Colon against the assault charge, his lawyer, Nathaniel J. Broughty, filed a court motion in January 2018 saying that the student faced another rape accusation, and that City College campus police had found videos on his phone that showed him having sex with unconscious women. But the videos were gone by the time prosecutors searched the phone. Citing privacy concerns, college officials did not respond to questions from The Times about the videos and their investigation.

The Times also interviewed another woman, Maria Guzman, who said that she and a friend had been drinking at the man�s home in Queens in 2016. Ms. Guzman, now 25, said she awoke in pain to him raping her. While in and out of consciousness, she said, she saw him rape her friend, who was completely unconscious.

Ms. Guzman, after learning through friends about the alleged rape in 2017 at City College, said she reported her attack to the police in Manhattan, who told her to speak with detectives in Queens. Feeling dismissed, she dropped the matter.

Though the City College student was never charged in relation to the other accusations, prosecutors could have used their testimony to try to bolster the case they had against him.

Karen Friedman Agnifilo, the former Manhattan chief assistant district attorney, acknowledged that the office had erred in this case by not following investigative leads.

Karen Friedman Agnifilo, the former Manhattan chief assistant district attorney, acknowledged that the office had erred in this case by not following investigative leads.

A 2018 investigation by City College found that the student had engaged in �nonconsensual sexual intercourse� with the woman whose case had been dropped by the district attorney. The student was suspended for four years, university records show.

But the only person punished was Mr. Colon, now 27, whose charges were dismissed only after the completion of community service.

tl:dr: A woman is raped, there is a witness, witness beats up the rapist, rapist also admits it and there are witnesses to him being a rapist, and the only charge is an assault charge on the guy who beat him up.

I think what we really need to consider though when we discuss the difficulty of proving rape cases is how much are the prosecutors actually doing the legwork, but also how much would it matter if they did. Think of it this way, even if the cases fail, having the police dig into your poo poo is scary and an inconvenience. Maybe the case doesn't go anywhere, but we know how just being investigated for a crime can take its toll on people. It acts as a deterrent by itself.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 15:58

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

At a certain point that we've long passed, we have to stop being credulous that prosecutors are failing to bring rape cases to trial just because it's so hard to prove rape.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 19:57

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Sodomy Hussein posted:

At a certain point that we've long passed, we have to stop being credulous that prosecutors are failing to bring rape cases to trial just because it's so hard to prove rape.

Not sure that's true- it is extremely hard to prove rape in a court of law, which is absolutely by design. The idea is that even if you somehow end up with DAs and prosecutors who actually want to try and charge rape cases, they're going to find it impossible to actually get those cases over the line.

# ? Jul 20, 2021 06:36

Cranappleberry: Jan 27, 2009

not politicians but doctors are well-protected, too, usually by other doctors.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doctor-accused-groping-harassing-24-100000686.html

# ? Jul 20, 2021 13:17

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Cranappleberry posted:

not politicians but doctors are well-protected, too, usually by other doctors.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doctor-accused-groping-harassing-24-100000686.html

Yeah, the Times article I posted cites a monstrous gynecologist.

some plague rats posted:

Not sure that's true- it is extremely hard to prove rape in a court of law, which is absolutely by design. The idea is that even if you somehow end up with DAs and prosecutors who actually want to try and charge rape cases, they're going to find it impossible to actually get those cases over the line.

It's definitely a mix of lovely systems, laws, and people. I think at one point it sucks but is not totally unreasonable that there are going to be rape cases that just legitimately end up being hard to prove, but I think the issue is that rape cases being hard to prove becomes sort of a rule of thumb instead of something that can be true. So even when you get the most Hollywood version of things where a lady fights off her offender, steals the evidence, a knight in shining armor beats up the rapist, and other dudes step up and do the right thing to confirm that he admitted he's raped people... you still end up with people going, "Who's to say?" on the premise of its rape and not the actual circumstances.

# ? Jul 20, 2021 16:56

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Surprise: Cuomo's casting aspersions on Letitia James' character bc he's worried about her conclusions as she wraps up her investigation into him:

quote:

In recent days and weeks, the governor�s communications team has sprinkled comments about any investigation-related news with assertions that James � the first Black woman to hold statewide office in New York � is using the probe to launch her own run for governor next year, when Cuomo may seek a fourth term.

�The continued leaks are more evidence of the transparent political motivation of the attorney general�s review,� Rich Azzopardi, Cuomo�s communication director and a senior adviser, said in a statement after news of the governor�s interview emerged in The New York Times.

By Wednesday, the jabs had become so blatant that fellow Democrats had started to cringe, and the head of a separate legislative impeachment investigation sent Cuomo a very public reprimand.

In a letter to the governor that he posted on Twitter, Assemblymember Charles Lavine (D-Nassau), the chair of the Judiciary Committee, warned Cuomo that language used to �demean� the attorney general and her investigation could have �severe repercussions� � and his committee might see it as an attempt to intimidate or silence witnesses relevant to both his investigation and the one run by James.

***

Cuomo, who became a national star early in the pandemic with his dramatic and emotional daily TV briefings, has lost much of his luster thanks to the accusations around nursing home deaths, sexual harassment and his book deal. He maintains middling approval ratings in New York, and just one-third of voters say he should run for re-election. In a May poll, James did better than Cuomo in a hypothetical gubernatorial matchup against an unnamed Republican opponent.

https://www.politico.com/states/new...litical-1388965

# ? Jul 26, 2021 15:10

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Good (and infuriating example) of street harassment:

https://twitter.com/BriReports/status/1418615799259045898

# ? Jul 26, 2021 15:11

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Willa Rogers posted:

Good (and infuriating example) of street harassment:

https://twitter.com/BriReports/status/1418615799259045898

Jesus christ. It still just blows me away that people act his way towards anyone, much less random strangers on the street.

# ? Jul 26, 2021 15:29

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I feel like the current Activision-Blizzard situation is definitely worth getting into here. It's actually an interesting case study for multiple reasons. There are a lot of good pieces on it, but this CNet article is a good primer if you're not familiar.

quote:

When dozens of Activision Blizzard employees staged a walkout on Wednesday it was the latest update in a troubling week for the company behind Call of Duty and World of Warcraft. Activision Blizzard has been rocked by an explosive lawsuit filing last week when the state of California accused it of workplace discrimination against its female workforce.

The suit, filed by the Department of Fair Employment and Housing, argues that the company has a "frat boy" workplace culture and alleges several alarming incidents of discrimination and harassment.

[...]

What is Activision Blizzard accused of?
The DFEH's suit accuses Activision Blizzard of workplace discrimination. It alleges women are compensated unfairly -- paid less for the same job, scrutinized more heavily than their male peers -- and subject to considerable harassment. The agency called Activision Blizzard a "breeding ground for harassment and discrimination," in which women are subject to regular sexual advances by (often high-ranking) men who largely go unpunished.

Illustrative of the claims DFEH is making against Activision is an office ritual referred to as "cube crawls," in which men allegedly drink "copious" amounts of alcohol, crawl through the office cubicles and engage in "inappropriate behavior" including groping. The lawsuit describes incidents including allegations that a female employee died by suicide during a business trip as a result of a toxic relationship with a supervisor.

"Women and girls now make up almost half of gamers in America, but the gaming industry continues to cater to men," the suit reads. "Activision-Blizzard's double-digit percentage growth, 10-figure annual revenues and recent diversity marketing campaigns have unfortunately changed little."

And then employees reacted?
After DFEH filed its suit, Activision Blizzard responded with a lengthy statement that said the department had filed a rushed, inaccurate report with "distorted, and in many cases false, descriptions of [Activision Blizzard's] past." In an email sent to staff, published by Bloomberg's Jason Schreier, vice president of corporate affairs Frances Townsend said the site presented "a distorted and untrue picture of our company, including factually incorrect, old, and out of context stories -- some from more than a month ago."

These statements evidently didn't satisfy employees, neither current nor former. Over 2,000 of them signed an open letter to Activision Blizzard leadership in which they criticized the company's response. (Activision Blizzard currently has around 10,000 employees.)

"To put it clearly and unequivocally, our values as employees are not accurately reflected in the words and actions of our leadership," the open letter reads, according to Bloomberg. "To claim this is a 'truly meritless and irresponsible lawsuit' while seeing so many current and former employees speak out about their own experiences regarding harassment and abuse is simply unacceptable."

The letter signed by employees made three demands. First, that the company issue statements that acknowledge the severity of the allegations. Second, that Townsend resign from her role as executive sponsor of the ABK Employee Women's Network. Third, that Activision Blizzard's executive leadership collaborate with employees to ensure a safe workspace to "speak out and come forward."

The story is horrifying, but I think symbolic of a different kind of story in which not one powerful man is abusing his power, but a toxic is culture allowed abuse on a mass scale which led to the suicide of an employee. It's such a horrible story that the particular horrible experiences like the treatment of Black women can be lost in the shuffle per The Washington Post.

quote:

The court complaint against Activision Blizzard claims that Black women were �micromanaged� and forced to justify short breaks and requests for time off, while no other workers were required to do so. It also said Black women at the company were singled out for their �body language� and scolded for asking for help when other employees did not receive similar treatment. Regulators also accuse the company of making hiring decisions based on women�s looks.

I think the story is a useful case study and point of discussion for a few reasons:

--Like I said, it speaks to issues of rape culture over tales of one corrupt man, the broader point of MeToo.

--California is actually doing something and this might actually serve as a model of how good government can effectively impact this sort of thing.

--I think most importantly, this reminds us that rape culture is not an issue of the character of certain individuals. Like racism or capitalism, it is a disease that infects many parts of our nation. Just like racism and capitalism are separate forces, but inherently intertwined ones, so is rape culture, fundamentally making it a labor issue, but not something that can only be viewed through a labor and class based lens.

I think that it is heartening to see Activision-Blizzard employees use traditional labor organization practices to further put pressure on the company. I think it also brings up a topic that really should be given more focus: Forced Arbitration, one of the main things Activision-Blizzarrd employees are demanding ends. Banning Forced Arbitration would not only be huge for labor in general, but specifically would neuter the ability of companies to protect abusers.

We have seen some headway on this with the banning of federal contractors using forced arbitration, and the FAIR Act would end it on a broader scale. It's one of the main things labor attorneys lobby for.

# ? Jul 29, 2021 17:11

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Timeless Appeal posted:

--California is actually doing something and this might actually serve as a model of how good government can effectively impact this sort of thing.

What are they actually doing? I don't really know enough about the weird way American law breaks down by state and what they actually have the power to do, what's the possible outcome here?

Timeless Appeal posted:

--I think most importantly, this reminds us that rape culture is not an issue of the character of certain individuals. Like racism or capitalism, it is a disease that infects many parts of our nation. Just like racism and capitalism are separate forces, but inherently intertwined ones, so is rape culture, fundamentally making it a labor issue, but not something that can only be viewed through a labor and class based lens.

I think that it is heartening to see Activision-Blizzard employees use traditional labor organization practices to further put pressure on the company. I think it also brings up a topic that really should be given more focus: Forced Arbitration, one of the main things Activision-Blizzarrd employees are demanding ends. Banning Forced Arbitration would not only be huge for labor in general, but specifically would neuter the ability of companies to protect abusers.

Was reading earlier that they've brought in the scumbag law firm that helped Amazon bust their union drive to deal with their "HR response" in yet another example of the rape culture/labour crossover you mentioned- not only will we learn nothing and bend over backwards to avoid punishing the guilty, we'll actively bring in the pinkertons to make sure you serfs don't get together and force us to make changes, all while speaking in the hideous corporate dialect of listening and hearing and altering behaviour going forward

At least it's a useful reminder for anyone who hasn't been paying attention that HR exists to protect the boss from you, never the other way around

# ? Jul 30, 2021 08:45

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

quote:

After DFEH filed its suit, Activision Blizzard responded with a lengthy statement that said the department had filed a rushed, inaccurate report with "distorted, and in many cases false, descriptions of [Activision Blizzard's] past."

[be a corporate executive at activision blizzard]

[have data on 1,971 sexual harassment or abuse events within the company that we have documented]

[see reports and lawsuits come in about 1,926 sexual harassment or abuse events at the company]

excellent, i can angrily write that this is a distorted account

# ? Jul 30, 2021 09:12

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

What are they actually doing? I don't really know enough about the weird way American law breaks down by state and what they actually have the power to do, what's the possible outcome here?

Well at a basic level the government is actually the ones doing the lawsuit. The employees aren't the plaintiff here, California's Department of of Fair Employment and Housing is. So, it's not Blizzard-Activison going against just some brave employees and their lawyers who they can easily outspend and push for a settlement. They're going against the world's fifth largest economy. And I think you've already seen the impact with the walkout. When the government takes the back of workers over a corporation, it gives them permission to stand their ground. But they are basically seeking to get the company to pay damages,* change their wages practices including backpay, and also pay penalties for not complying with the Equal Pay Act. In short, they are coming at 'em hard. But who knows how this will pan out.

quote:

Was reading earlier that they've brought in the scumbag law firm that helped Amazon bust their union drive to deal with their "HR response" in yet another example of the rape culture/labour crossover you mentioned- not only will we learn nothing and bend over backwards to avoid punishing the guilty, we'll actively bring in the pinkertons to make sure you serfs don't get together and force us to make changes, all while speaking in the hideous corporate dialect of listening and hearing and altering behaviour going forward

These are the people who hired a PR Rep for the Concept of Torture as their Chief Compliance officer.

I mean I have faces sexual harassment and gender discrimination, and a lot of my life is spent supporting kids through trauma. The fact that the Activision/Blizzard stuff has actually shocked me is very telling and just how goddamn evil these guys are.

*Once again a woman died after being cajoled in a relationship with a supervisor and who probably passed on a photo of her vagina to her co-workers, some of these bastards should be treated like straight up murderers so this part is still sadly lighter than it should be in a fairer world.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jul 30, 2021

# ? Jul 30, 2021 17:57

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

No wonder Blizzard's output has been so garbage if they've been too busy acting like 80s movie fratboys and terrorising half their workforce to get anything done.

# ? Jul 31, 2021 01:45

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Staluigi posted:

[be a corporate executive at activision blizzard]

[have data on 1,971 sexual harassment or abuse events within the company that we have documented]

[see reports and lawsuits come in about 1,926 sexual harassment or abuse events at the company]

excellent, i can angrily write that this is a distorted account

unironically that appears to be precisely what happened

# ? Jul 31, 2021 04:19

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

The report is out and says what everyone expected it do although my understanding is that there are confirmed cased discovered beyond the initial accusations. I don't think I recall the state trooper allegation before. I'm linking the updating CNN article because it includes political reactions that I know people are interested in, fairly. For what it's worth, we are actually hearing calls for resignation from the Majority Leader and the Assembly Speaker probably getting a sore butt from fence sitting, describing the report as actions that would make someone not fit for office.

I think the question now in terms of consequences is if there are people actively trying to push Cuomo to resign and if he doesn't, will they impeach. I think my broader frustration is that outside of the harassment issues, Cuomo already has a bunch of impeachable actions. It's similar to Trump in sort of holding out to get all the bad stuff, and that's obviously the most good faith interpretation of events.

But a bunch of women proved to the world that what they experienced was true and that does matter despite whatever else happens.

Also gently caress Cuomo.

EDIT: Here is the AG Page with the report available.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Aug 3, 2021

# ? Aug 3, 2021 17:47

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Timeless Appeal posted:

I think the question now in terms of consequences is if there are

-snip-

Any?

I don't think anyone's going to be shocked by the report - the battle lines are mostly already drawn, I think. We're a considerable way away from an election cycle, so not being familiar with gubernatorial politics, what happens at this point if Cuomo resigns? I have to presume that there's some republican toad waiting in the wings for their shot at the seat, but who are the dems going to run? Is this a special election situation or does the state legislature just appoint someone until the next election?

Are we going to get pressure campaigns of "if you think Cuomo should step down/be impeached then you want a current democrat position filled by a republican, do you?!"

With all that's been explicitly laid out in the report, it's going to be a wild ride watching how the state and media apparatuses move forward. The nursing home poo poo wasn't enough to kill Cuomo, I really don't know if this can either.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 18:10

silicone thrills: Jan 9, 2008; I paint things

Absolutely nothing surprising in that report at all.

I will be completely shocked if there's any consequences at all though. There's no reason for him to step down. There's no political will to try to force him out.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 18:35

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 06:36

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

Even if he stepped down, there's nothing indicating that you wouldn't immediately get a replacement who was complicit in the whole affair.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 19:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > #metoo and the impact of rape culture

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