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nurmie posted:do you proceed to destroy them with facts and logic there and then? no, I just tell them that I never look through a telescope in the course of my job and hate staying up late and then they think i don't even know what astronomy is. The stars I care about only exist on the computer as simulated objects.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:42
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I'm willing to attribute godly characteristics to Jupiter, the god, and act accordingly in some way. However I will never admit the actual planet had anything to do with it, if it even exists. I certainly have never been there.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:45
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like, people believe in all sorts of weird stuff, and it's totally fine. we're all people, we're all weird and irrational and run on emotions (to some degree at least). none of us has a clear and objective picture of reality, and we all have to find ways to cope with what life throws at us sometimes. or just ways to make it all a bit more spicy and yeah, sometimes being into astrology can grow into an obsession that makes people behave in odd and even harmful ways (ranging from dating by astrological sign to pulling some con-artist-type poo poo and beyond). but so can literally anything else in life. like, i'd say that Person A who's only kind of into astrology (asking people's signs, saying stuff like "typical Virgo" and reading an occasional horoscope) might be just a tad more rational than, say, Person B who's super into Warhammer 40k (to the point of spending a large part of their disposable income on an imaginary world). that is not to judge Person B for their passions, by the way and yeah, there's the whole misogyny layer too, but i'm not really in the mood to go there
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Jul 11, 2021 03:49
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nurmie posted:like, i'd say that Person A who's only kind of into astrology (asking people's signs, saying stuff like "typical Virgo" and reading an occasional horoscope) might be just a tad more rational than, say, Person B who's super into Warhammer 40k (to the point of spending a large part of their disposable income on an imaginary world) Lol do you think that nerds believe their fantasy universe of choice is a real place?
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Jul 11, 2021 03:51
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Lol do you think that nerds believe their fantasy universe of choice is a real place? not really, no. which makes spending money on it even less rational 
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Jul 11, 2021 03:52
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nurmie posted:not really, no. which makes spending money on it even less rational What. What the gently caress are you even saying.
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Jul 11, 2021 03:54
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a big egg posted:The difference is we can't measure the effect an angel has on a person, because we don't even know they exist. We can measure the effect a distant planet has on a developing child though. I've never seen astrology people attribute magical powers to planets, it's all about alignments and positions that objectively have less than negligible effects on a person on earth. With angels, if you believe in them you are accepting there is something supernatural that can't be tested/explained. If astrology framed itself as a religion where it was based on faith I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they're trying to tell me that the simple fact that jupiter was at point X in its orbit instead of Y explains why I'm not rich. They aren't saying jupiter is a god whose mood changes depending on position, they're saying the ball of gas is exerting some kind of force on me at birth and that somehow changes me. A lot of people (a lot) have escaped into Astrology as a kind of "ok this is obviously fake, however im choosing to believe in it because it brings me a small amount of joy in this hellish dystopia". Arguing with these people is just preaching to the choir and missing the point of it. Like sure there are people that believe in it, but there's literally nothing you as an individual are going to be able to do with respect to that. It is astonishingly difficult to disabuse people of arguably harmful notions like this and it has to be done in a way that protected their psyche otherwise it's not gonna stick and you're just being an rear end. There is pretty much no reason to get antsy about it because either way saying or doing anything about it has a high likelihood of failing utterly and just making you an rear end in a top hat in the process
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Jul 11, 2021 03:59
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Fashionable Jorts posted:What. what i'm saying is, consciously choosing to spend your limited time and hard-earned money on a make-believe, fantasy universe is a fundamentally irrational thing to do. kind of like being into astrology. and both of these things are entirely fine - if done in moderation yet, we tend to ridicule and make fun of one of those things and (generally) not the other clear enough?
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Jul 11, 2021 04:00
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nurmie posted:what i'm saying is, consciously choosing to spend your limited time and hard-earned money on a make-believe, fantasy universe is a fundamentally irrational thing to do. kind of like being into astrology. and both of these things are entirely fine - if done in moderation what else should they spend their time on? working their asses off for a boss that gets thousands for every dime they make? "useful" skills that don't give them as much pleasure as painting some figurines? the planet is dying, give people a loving break jeez
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Jul 11, 2021 04:02
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nurmie posted:what i'm saying is, consciously choosing to spend your limited time and hard-earned money on a make-believe, fantasy universe is a fundamentally irrational thing to do. kind of like being into astrology. and both of these things are entirely fine - if done in moderation I'm sorry that you don't have an imagination.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:03
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alexandriao posted:A lot of people (a lot) have escaped into Astrology as a kind of "ok this is obviously fake, however im choosing to believe in it because it brings me a small amount of joy in this hellish dystopia". Arguing with these people is just preaching to the choir and missing the point of it. Is it harmless? Yes. I just don't like being expected to care about it or know what my signs are. It's like someone asking what your favorite anime is, or what your favorite DND style board game is - harmless, but I can't pretend to care about it no matter how hard I try. also the same could be said about every religion on earth but somehow when they are criticized it's cool.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:06
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nurmie posted:what i'm saying is, consciously choosing to spend your limited time and hard-earned money on a make-believe, fantasy universe is a fundamentally irrational thing to do. kind of like being into astrology. and both of these things are entirely fine - if done in moderation Right, they should be grinding! All that time you spend thinking about planets, you could be driving an Uber!
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Jul 11, 2021 04:06
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a big egg posted:Is it harmless? Yes. I just don't like being expected to care about it or know what my signs are. It's like someone asking what your favorite anime is, or what your favorite DND style board game is - harmless, but I can't pretend to care about it no matter how hard I try. Honestly if someone started going off about how Islam and Buddhism are bullshit and people believe in them are morons, I wouldn't be thrilled with that either.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:07
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i'm literally one of these nerds spending my limited time and money on non-existing universes, by the way. like i literally said 3 times that it's fine and cool and good. same as astrology and poo poo. it's not a rational thing to do, but humans are irrational by nature, which is why it's fine why so defensive lol
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Jul 11, 2021 04:07
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I'm sorry that you don't have an imagination. Tell us what is a good use of hard-earned money.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:07
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doverhog posted:Tell us what is a good use of hard-earned money. cheap booze and unhealthy food.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:10
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doverhog posted:Tell us what is a good use of hard-earned money. Literally anything that brings you pleasure without harming another.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:11
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PHUO: The MBTI is misunderstood by the people that made it, the people that tout it and the people who deride it. The MBTI test itself is reliable for some metrics. If you get a certain letter combination you can say that this person is more likely to suffer from hypertension, or go about doing a task in a certain way. We know this with some degree of certainty, that those correlations can be meaningful if proper respect is applied to the credibility of the information available. This is pretty replicable, and recent studies have shown that the idea that you can do the test multiple times and come out with a different letter combination doesn't hold true. So the test results do seem to mean something. But the actual theory behind it has not been verified or tested, is not testable, and misapplications of the theory in general and the test in relation to that (say, business environments) are rightly scorned and derided. People on the internet who believe in "functional types" are worse though. Because not only is that unverified it's also inconsistent and everyone and their mother has a different explanation of how they work. I would say the MBTI is worth ignoring for the most part. There's some small studies I want done with a larger sample size in relation to the P/J distinction, because that part of the result has been pretty well correlated to preferences around academic learning and behaviour styles, and the tiny study that is available seems to indicate that there is a huuuuge gap in resources available for people who come out with a P result.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:13
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Literally anything that brings you pleasure without harming another. Reasonable. 
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Jul 11, 2021 04:15
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alexandriao posted:PHUO: The MBTI is misunderstood by the people that made it, the people that tout it and the people who deride it. I mostly don't like it because the answers allow no room for nuance. Like you either agree with it or you don't, you can't say "yes, but...". Plus just like political compass tests it's easy to game it to get the result you want. That said I don't really care about it, it's just another facebook-esque quiz. I'd only get riled up about it if my employer made me take it.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:21
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nurmie posted:what i'm saying is, consciously choosing to spend your limited time and hard-earned money on a make-believe, fantasy universe is a fundamentally irrational thing to do. kind of like being into astrology. and both of these things are entirely fine - if done in moderation I'll bite here, since Ive spent thousands of dollars on Warhammer 40,000 over the course of nearly two decades. In what way is this "fundamentally irrational"? I have purchased miniatures that I had fun assembling, painting, and then I would take to my friends house who would then also enjoy viewing. I have regularly gotten together weekly with friends to play games with these miniatures, having fun, and laughing at the nonsense that is probability. We've managed to forge our own narratives within the games we play that we still talk about years later. I have met new people and made lifetime friends because I thought the Warhammer 40,000 setting was neat. Then, at the end of the day, I still have miniatures that are aesthetically pleasing to me. I've also purchased videogames and novels that use the setting as a backdrop to tell interesting (or not interesting) stories that stimulate my mind, as fiction tends to do in humans. And at the end of the day, this money that I have spent has gone to pay artists, writers, sculptors, store staff, and who knows how many others (ignoring the corporate entity that is GW at this moment, because that's not what's being discussed). So even if thinking about and enjoying a fictional setting is somehow a waste of time and energy, and every time a person pictures Space Marines punching Orks is speeding up universal entropy, spending money on what is literally art is no leas rational than reading one of twelve daily sentences that happen to be prescribed to people born at a certain time of year.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:27
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The point is that people who enjoy astrology also have fun with it and enjoy talking to people about it, and that being a huge rear end in a top hat about it just because 'it's irrational' is weird and offputting. The entire point of the 40k analogy is that enjoying 40k is fine and good even if it is fake and silly, just like enjoying astrology is.
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Jul 11, 2021 04:35
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there just seems to be an element of hypocrisy there though, like the people who are into astrology and don't want to be criticized because it's just all good and fun, but will freely criticize christians who just do it because it makes them feel good and it's fun
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Jul 11, 2021 04:40
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I'll bite here, since Ive spent thousands of dollars on Warhammer 40,000 over the course of nearly two decades. oh gently caress i didn't know that lol, Warhammer 40k was the first thing that came to mind, didn't mean to get personal or whatever and, as i said and as the poster above me noted, it's totally, completely, entirely *fine*. like, what im saying is, judging people for what they choose to spend their time and money on, based on some nebulous notion of it being "irrational" kind of sucks. this goes for Warhammer, Star Wars, astrology, building miniature railroads, writing music, making movies, getting into buddhism, getting into islam, getting into christianity, whatever else - as long as it's not harmful to them or anyone else. *all* of these things - and shitloads of other things people do - are irrational and, it's fine. irrational =/= bad. i'd say irrational == good, actually
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Jul 11, 2021 04:42
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Astrology is bad because if it had a stronger following from people in power, it would absolutely be used to discriminate. It's a system that makes judgments on people based off of circumstances they can't control. It's no better than phrenology. Astrology certainly doesn't have the problematic history of racism and religious bigotry, but it's in the same ballpark.
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Jul 11, 2021 05:00
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Master Twig posted:Astrology is bad because if it had a stronger following from people in power, it would absolutely be used to discriminate. It's a system that makes judgments on people based off of circumstances they can't control. It's no better than phrenology. Astrology certainly doesn't have the problematic history of racism and religious bigotry, but it's in the same ballpark. Counterpoint: people in power don't need excuses to discriminate, that's what 'being in power' means. When stuff like phrenology or astrology is used to justify discrimination, it always ~mysteriously~ supports the biases already held by those wanting to discriminate. Also, nerds being assholes about it aren't harassing powerful politicians, they're pretty much exclusively harassing women.
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Jul 11, 2021 05:04
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Honestly I don't get the misogyny aspect people keep mentioning. My only issue is the concept of it. Maybe more women believe in it than men, I don't know, but that has nothing to do with the point that it's feel-good nonsense.
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Jul 11, 2021 05:07
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HazCat posted:Counterpoint: people in power don't need excuses to discriminate, that's what 'being in power' means. When stuff like phrenology or astrology is used to justify discrimination, it always ~mysteriously~ supports the biases already held by those wanting to discriminate. You hosed up because we were arguing for the same thing, but in this post it really seems like you support people believing in phrenology, which is very literally a racist from the ground up ideology
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Jul 11, 2021 05:15
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a big egg posted:Honestly I don't get the misogyny aspect people keep mentioning. My only issue is the concept of it. Maybe more women believe in it than men, I don't know, but that has nothing to do with the point that it's feel-good nonsense. anecdotally and stereotypically, women are more into it than men are. and, as with all things women are stereotypically into, it becomes an acceptable target for folks (dudes, generally) to go on about how irrational, silly and dumb it is. see also Twilight, romance novels in general, Sailor Moon and other often-mocked stuff "for girls" - on the grounds of it being silly, soppy and even (gasp) harmful. i mean, i personally don't enjoy any of these, but i'd go on a limb and say that Call of Duty, Men's Health and books by Tom Clancy (and other stuff "for guys" in the same vein) has caused infinitely more brain rot than any of the "girly" media. at the very least, the Call of Duty -> US armed forces pipeline alone is responsible for much more death and suffering than Twilight could ever hoped to be nurmie has a new favorite as of 05:18 on Jul 11, 2021 |
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Jul 11, 2021 05:16
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Jokerpilled Drudge posted:I think he's talking about things where some therapists will ask you to relive your child's death once a week every week Oh. That’s not a thing any actual licensed therapist would do. Or if they did they should/would lose their license. Master Twig posted:Astrology is bad because if it had a stronger following from people in power, it would absolutely be used to discriminate. It's a system that makes judgments on people based off of circumstances they can't control. It's no better than phrenology. Astrology certainly doesn't have the problematic history of racism and religious bigotry, but it's in the same ballpark. You also are making up a guy to get mad at. This is not done. It’s a harmless superstition. Calm down.
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Jul 11, 2021 05:25
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I mean, compare it to all the other hobbies you want, but nobody nukes their relationships or fucks themselves financially because Call of Duty said to rethink your life. Or at least, if someone does think Luke Skywalker is telling them to sell their home and move away, they get reasonably treated like someone with poor mental health.
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Jul 11, 2021 05:40
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I don’t believe in tarot but people using it for spiritual purposes is fine to me. Astrology’s claim to empiricism is what sticks in my craw. Anyways, the way to handle astrologists isn’t to tell them it’s fake, it’s to claim you’re an Ophiuchus, the secret thirteenth zodiac sign
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Jul 11, 2021 05:40
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Captain Monkey posted:You also are making up a guy to get mad at. This is not done. It’s a harmless superstition. Calm down. Reagan.
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Jul 11, 2021 05:50
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I mean, compare it to all the other hobbies you want, but nobody nukes their relationships or fucks themselves financially because Call of Duty said to rethink your life. i suppose not. however, there are legitimately cases where people go and enlist and proceed to drone-strike weddings all over the middle east because a game told them it's fine, actually (see here, or here for reference). i guess it's hard to say which is worse
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Jul 11, 2021 05:58
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I mean, compare it to all the other hobbies you want, but nobody nukes their relationships or fucks themselves financially because Call of Duty said to rethink your life. Ok, but there are about a hundred other things that cause this that are equally or more maddening than astrology. And again, showing lack of support or derision for astrology is not going to convince anyone to stop believing in it, it just outs you as someone who is both insufferable and intolerant alexandriao has a new favorite as of 06:16 on Jul 11, 2021 |
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Jul 11, 2021 06:13
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Also if you really, really want to catch people on the psuedoscience downward slope, I have seen Natural News actually turn coherent, rational people with maybe a disadvantaged view of the public health system, into anti-vaxxers with an McEscheresque view of the world before my eyes. That seems like a better place to start IMHO
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Jul 11, 2021 06:16
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Maybe I'm just soured by the number of people I've encountered in my life who feel an unyielding need to bring up astrology in conversation, despite my objections to participate. People who are into tarot or crystals or whatever don't get pissy when I'm on lunch break, headphones in, and refuse to tell them my sign. Or try and prescribe a sign to me based off of their limited exposure to my behavior (you'd think that with it being a 1/12 guess someone would've gotten it right by now).
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Jul 11, 2021 06:21
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Byzantine posted:Reagan. Reagan's love of astrology was arguably a more balanced and centered worldview than his economic policy. He also didn't start pogroms about those with Mars Descending or whatever the other dude made up in his head to get mad at. Fashionable Jorts posted:I mean, compare it to all the other hobbies you want, but nobody nukes their relationships or fucks themselves financially because Call of Duty said to rethink your life. So you've literally never heard of Gamergate or interacted with Star Wars fans then?
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Jul 11, 2021 06:55
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can we please never loving say "cool and good" ever again jesus
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Jul 11, 2021 07:22
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Shibawanko posted:can we please never loving say "cool and good" ever again jesus saying cool and cool is Cool and - imagine this! - Good 
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Jul 11, 2021 07:23
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