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Socialism doesn’t seem that varied with what info we have
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Jul 9, 2021 15:03
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CharlestheHammer posted:Socialism doesn’t seem that varied with what info we have
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Jul 9, 2021 15:20
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The way I've read their DDs, they have both state and direct worker ownership of various industries, and from that I think follows that both authoritarian and democratic states are an option. Even with just two positions on those axes, that's four distinct varieties, where V2 had one. That's before you take into account different approaches to the market and social welfare, as well as the subject of the military, which starts to ramp up the possible variety massively. Yeah if we do look at the different approaches V2 even had a bit of variety in representing different flavours of social democracies and command economies; 5 Year Plans vs the NEP etc.
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Jul 9, 2021 15:52
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The way I've read their DDs, they have both state and direct worker ownership of various industries, and from that I think follows that both authoritarian and democratic states are an option. Even with just two positions on those axes, that's four distinct varieties, where V2 had one. That's before you take into account different approaches to the market and social welfare, as well as the subject of the military, which starts to ramp up the possible variety massively. See that just seems like the basic stuff they have to cover. None of that is the more niche ones. Though state owned also isn’t socialistic exclusive or at least shouldn’t be
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Jul 9, 2021 16:00
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CharlestheHammer posted:See that just seems like the basic stuff they have to cover. None of that is the more niche ones. Though state owned also isn’t socialistic exclusive or at least shouldn’t be Wait, now that I think about it, fascism already has about that level of variety in V2, given the inclusion of social fascism.
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Jul 9, 2021 16:26
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Wiz posted:Pretty much this. The main reason for the Sepoy rebellion was general British discrimination policies anyhow, the whole thing about the cartridges was IIRC basically an untrue rumor that fired up people who had other very much not untrue grievances. which is much easier to have represented in game too! Cease to Hope posted:I'm not demanding that they split up meat types or anything. I just recalled that they said they were going to tackle religious dietary taboos, and wondered if that included meat (and how they'd handle that if so). I apologize, came off far more abrasive than funny
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Jul 9, 2021 17:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:See that just seems like the basic stuff they have to cover. None of that is the more niche ones. Though state owned also isn’t socialistic exclusive or at least shouldn’t be I think with the new gameplay mechanic that is going to work much better too Prussia sure as gently caress is not going to wait on businessmen to build cannon foundries if they have to, so to speak
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Jul 9, 2021 17:11
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I wonder how technology and research will be handled. It would be interesting if you could send off some pops to be educated in other countries in order to bring back new innovations and have more educated and literate pops when they return -- at the price of possibly losing some percentage of them that choose to stay in the countries they study at. This was a pretty big thing, if I recall, towards the latter end of the 19th century, with industrializing countries like Japan.
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Jul 9, 2021 18:28
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I hope they don't spend a lot of time fleshing out obscure ideologies or historical events. I'd much rather they focus on getting the basic mechanics polished then add neo-reactionary space communism with buddhist characteristics in a dlc.
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Jul 9, 2021 19:51
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I hope they don't spend a lot of time fleshing out obscure ideologies or historical events. I'd much rather they focus on getting the basic mechanics polished then add neo-reactionary space communism with buddhist characteristics in a dlc. just give modders the ability and they will add in every single flavor of socialism/anarchism/anarcho-liberalism/dark monarchism/etc one can imagine
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Jul 9, 2021 20:08
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I hope they don't spend a lot of time fleshing out obscure ideologies or historical events. I'd much rather they focus on getting the basic mechanics polished then add neo-reactionary space communism with buddhist characteristics in a dlc. As long as meaningful differences and interactions between the standard ideologies and governments are part of the basic mechanics.
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Jul 9, 2021 20:23
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DrSunshine posted:I wonder how technology and research will be handled. It would be interesting if you could send off some pops to be educated in other countries in order to bring back new innovations and have more educated and literate pops when they return -- at the price of possibly losing some percentage of them that choose to stay in the countries they study at. This was a pretty big thing, if I recall, towards the latter end of the 19th century, with industrializing countries like Japan. Naively this seems pretty easy to build off of an espionage system, e.g. randomness in what tech is gained, chance of success, network attrition. There's a nice youtube channel Voices of the Past that goes over first-person accounts of situations like this.
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Jul 9, 2021 20:25
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Just have everyone be anarcho-liberal
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Jul 9, 2021 20:30
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*arachno-liberal.
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Jul 9, 2021 20:31
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get caught in the tangled web of capitalism.
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Jul 9, 2021 20:31
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New Mod: Stellaris models for V3 pops.
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Jul 9, 2021 21:18
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DrSunshine posted:I wonder how technology and research will be handled. It would be interesting if you could send off some pops to be educated in other countries in order to bring back new innovations and have more educated and literate pops when they return -- at the price of possibly losing some percentage of them that choose to stay in the countries they study at. This was a pretty big thing, if I recall, towards the latter end of the 19th century, with industrializing countries like Japan. I think something like this could be cool; but recall that the number of people who travelled to other countries to get an education abroad isn't all that high, it shouldn't have an appreciable effect on the size of your population. Maybe it can make reactionaries upset though, but it was typically fairly prestigious to go abroad. Post-War a lot of the Japanese officer corps after being demobilized went to France to learn french cuisine in fact. I think it can be divided into two broad phenomena: 1. POP migration; as people migrate for new opportunities; some of them might migrate back bringing knowledge with them. Basically the higher proportion of second+ generation POPs that get access to middle class professions should contribute to your technological progression by a small amount, helps take the sting out of "X pops left to another country this day" because long term you still benefit; and helps your industrialization because the POPs you get back are more literate, have money and climbed social strata. 2. Specific individuals being sent abroad to higher education institutions or to work in specific industries you lack tech/experience in. Like Tsar Petyr the Great traveling europe to learn shipbuilding and bring back experienced technologists to Russia; this would be something your aristocrat POPs do for you if you're a monarchy (along with officers); sending their sons/daughters abroad to learn trades, skills, and so on; this increases the power of this interest group because they are building a class of interconnected system of patronage which will overtime accrue influence over the nation; such as post-Meiji Japan and the zaibatsu. This will also increase the chance of them splitting a bit into new capitalist pops giving your a boost. Effects: -Bonus to efficiency in the related fields the students gain experience in; someone sent to a gun factory increases your bonus to gun production (by a small amount) while boosting relevant research. -Bonus to research speed and/or give you tech points every once in a while like in CK. -Societal effects; traditionalist reactionaries rallying against progress; increased consciousness as new ideas spread in your nation, etc. -POP effects: Boost to capitalist promotion (split from aristocrats perhaps?), clerk promotion, literacy; perhaps a bonus revenue source for capitalist pops striking trade deals as part of trade commissions. But instead of sending a POP, you're sending a CK style character from that POP, and their traits can influence their efficacy. You can recruit some number of them, based on some sort of capacity system, perhaps dependent on the number of aristocrats/capitalists/officers in your country? You assign these characters to nations you have positive relations with; they help to improve relations (but events can affect this) while they are abroad similar to councillors. When they finish their mission they give a lumpsum bonus in addition to what they had accumulated as a passive/static modifier up until then; like some prestige (important in V2 for nations like Japan). Whatever is the equivalent of a merchant pop (artisans?) could perhaps help get you a supply of goods off of the target nation's markets/production directly, bypassing the world market. I.e someone going to another country to purchase/smuggle guns.
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Jul 9, 2021 22:01
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Cease to Hope posted:this is obviously whales, but it seems to imply meat is fungible. if meat is fungible, and religions are actually going to be modeled, what does this mean for meat taboos? they were actually a big deal for the colonial powers, in that even rumors of mismanagement could lead to uprisings. the sepoy rebellion was caused by the Doctrine of lapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_lapse , but it was supposed to be fats anyway in the myth, not meat
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Jul 12, 2021 02:39
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PawParole posted:the sepoy rebellion was caused by the Doctrine of lapse this is the same sort of oversimplification that you're trying to argue against; the sepoy revolution didn't have a single cause. in this specific example, i know it was just a rumor. the issue wasn't that the cartridges were actually sealed with pork or beef fat, but that there were persistent rumors that there were. those rumors were credible because of the pervasive pressure on hindu or muslim indians to conform to british cultural practice, including eating beef and pork it would be cool if vic3 could simulate this! if it would make the british occupier player's life easier to push the locals to eat the same food to simplify sales and provisioning, that would be a neat and real-feeling way to put the player into a colonial mindset. i get why they're not doing it, but it would've been cool.
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Jul 12, 2021 03:29
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The sepoy rebellion sounds like it's modeled pretty accurately just be having high militancy in Victoria 2? There's no one thing, just the player clicking lots of "piss off the locals" options in colonial events. Then boom all your Indian soldier pops turn to rebels one day and overrun northern India before you ship in troops to manage it.
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Jul 12, 2021 04:15
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Personally I found it kinda unfun the way militancy in V2 seemed to result in constantly largely harmless rebellions that were relatively easy to crush but ruined my army templates which results in an annoying amount of micro; I hope V3 has something like how Stellaris/EU4 can let you click a button to auto reinforce back to full; and have more powerful less frequent armed rebellions and instead the militancy translates to some other different interaction like secret societies, secret police counter actions, raiding secret meetings; riots and protests that don't rise to an armed conflict but still result in interesting feedback to the player.
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Jul 12, 2021 04:26
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Raenir Salazar posted:Personally I found it kinda unfun the way militancy in V2 seemed to result in constantly largely harmless rebellions that were relatively easy to crush but ruined my army templates which results in an annoying amount of micro; I hope V3 has something like how Stellaris/EU4 can let you click a button to auto reinforce back to full; and have more powerful less frequent armed rebellions and instead the militancy translates to some other different interaction like secret societies, secret police counter actions, raiding secret meetings; riots and protests that don't rise to an armed conflict but still result in interesting feedback to the player. Suppression is supposed to model those things in Victoria 2. Also the rebellions are supposed to be only an annoyance for a stable nation, but cause problems once other things get out of hand.
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Jul 12, 2021 04:39
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To be precise; there are in the context of a game (albeit one whose appeal aims to be somewhat simulationist) fair annoyances and unfair annoyances; because in real life there exists a bureaucracy that automates some of that. Most of what I mentioned should fall under QoL improvements regardless of whether your nation is stable or not. Suppression points I contend are not a very interesting mechanic; it isn't really clear what it does and how effective it is; especially when many rebellions seem to come from no where. I think it would be more interesting if it mechanically was more akin to certain kinds of board games like Pandemic or that one where you play as gods on an island trying to keep out colonizers where you progress through phases of a political movement with different interactions available at each stage; with your goal to keep it from getting to the next stage; ultimate failure leads to rebellion/insurrection/civil war (in the worst case if you made all the wrong decisions); kind of like a Stellaris Crisis but just for your own nation and your actions cause a divergence that can have different results. For larger nations there should be something like a scroll menu to go through the different movements because the larger you are the more than should be that require you to expend resources to keep at bay which in peace time as you say should be something you can easily handle. After all 1905 and 1917 were results of losing wars. For Democracies I think you can adjust it where how wide spread a movement is can translate into votes/political representation that lends legitimacy to pushing through laws/reforms; and its easy to see how such a system could be adapted so the "Slave States Movement" can model the Civil War without railroading it or relying on historical events. You are being pulled between Abolitionist movements and the slavery movements and keeping one happy makes another angry which is another axis in the balancing act.
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Jul 12, 2021 06:46
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Wiz has expressed that he wants rarer but more meaningful rebellions.
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Jul 12, 2021 06:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:To be precise; there are in the context of a game (albeit one whose appeal aims to be somewhat simulationist) fair annoyances and unfair annoyances; because in real life there exists a bureaucracy that automates some of that. Most of what I mentioned should fall under QoL improvements regardless of whether your nation is stable or not. i think mechanical annoyances that you want to smooth out in the way that colonizers wanted to smooth out the inconvenient desires and needs of the people they're colonizing are good design for a game like this.
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Jul 12, 2021 07:39
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you're a state: better be seein like one. get those nice square designs up in there everywhere
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Jul 12, 2021 07:47
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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:Wiz has expressed that he wants rarer but more meaningful rebellions. Imperator Rome tried to do that initially. Rebellions were rare and only rebel when they have a real chance of enforcing their demands. Which is not historical and not that fun, as in you can ignore rebels most of the time until they rise up at the moment when they can completely break your country. I don't want to say that the holy historicity should be the judge, but it doesn't feel right too, not authentic. Plenty of famous armed rebellions were futile. So we'll see how it works. Smaller insurrections would probably be modeled by events without army involvement.
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Jul 12, 2021 08:00
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what if there was a General Strike mechanic where those drat trade unionists shut down entire sections of your economy for [x] months or until you give them pensions
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Jul 12, 2021 14:20
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logger posted:Suppression is supposed to model those things in Victoria 2. Also the rebellions are supposed to be only an annoyance for a stable nation, but cause problems once other things get out of hand. A "stable nation" that regularly experiences minor uprisings is not a stable nation. In a stable nation, discontent is fuelled into non-militant political movements who try to push through their demands via electoralism if that's an option, or by putting pressure on the relevant actors/structures via swaying public opinion, arranging protests, strikes etc. Now these movements may become militant, but they're highly unlikely to actually turn into full-on armed rebellions unless things have already gotten pretty bad and the authorities are no longer seen as legitimate, not to mention entirely unfit to wield their monopoly on violence. That is to say, when the nation is no longer stable. Luckily, according to what the devs have stated, this is exactly what they're aiming to model. ThaumPenguin fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Jul 12, 2021 |
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Jul 12, 2021 14:45
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logger posted:Suppression is supposed to model those things in Victoria 2. Also the rebellions are supposed to be only an annoyance for a stable nation, but cause problems once other things get out of hand. The rebellions in Vicky II would often cause significant population loss.
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Jul 12, 2021 15:05
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Yeah ideally rebellions won't be "annoying." Stimulating and challenging, sure, but not annoying. The previous Vickies had a real problem with rebellions just being annoying. Sure you can say real rebellions annoyed real world leaders, but I'm not actually immortal god-king of a nation-state, I'm playing a video game in my down time, for fun. Instead of V2 my main memory is Prussia or Austria in VIP. 1848, all liberals get +1000000000 militancy and also a ton of pops turn liberal because! And then even if you give them everything they want, oops, Bismarck and the Counter-Revolution, now the same thing happens but it's reactionaries from nowhere. It wasn't fun, there was nothing to interact with, and the rebels couldn't threaten you even if you hadn't built a single army unit since game start. It was just a ton of slowing down to march divisions back and forth to kill each rebel stack. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jul 12, 2021 |
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Jul 12, 2021 15:12
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Takanago posted:what if there was a General Strike mechanic where those drat trade unionists shut down entire sections of your economy for [x] months or until you give them pensions I'd be really surprised if strikes weren't kind of modelled somehow, even if it's just a production mallus for unhappy pops. It fits the setting a lot better than constant armed revolts.
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Jul 12, 2021 15:30
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I seem to remember Victoria 2 rebellions being gigantic in numbers, but completely lacking in equipment. Like an army of a million men would materialise, but it'd just be infantry and tiny amounts of other stuff, in a game where the "other stuff" was incredibly effective. As a result you could get into situations that should be complete failure states (government forces outnumbered two to one by rebels, for example) and win crushing victories just because the enemy army composition was terrible. Then there wasn't really a "Well, we tried to rebel and got annihilated, let's keep our heads down for a bit" effect to , so in two years time another million-man rebellion would happen and get crushed exactly the same as before. And since everyone's family dies when they do, that's eight million dead from two rebellions. So hopefully this time rebels have better army compositions and there's a chilling effect on future rebellions when one gets defeated.
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Jul 12, 2021 16:11
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fuf posted:I'd be really surprised if strikes weren't kind of modelled somehow, even if it's just a production mallus for unhappy pops. The production method mechanics make implementing strikes fairly intuitive. If the miners go on strike, the mines they work at become inactive, or at the very least no longer receives labor from trade union-aligned miners.
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Jul 12, 2021 16:14
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Gort posted:I seem to remember Victoria 2 rebellions being gigantic in numbers, but completely lacking in equipment. Like an army of a million men would materialise, but it'd just be infantry and tiny amounts of other stuff, in a game where the "other stuff" was incredibly effective. As a result you could get into situations that should be complete failure states (government forces outnumbered two to one by rebels, for example) and win crushing victories just because the enemy army composition was terrible. IME, it was less the army comp being a problem, and more that they'd spawn in individual 3-12k stacks that were easy to mop up one at a time. It was still very possible to lose though, even for a player, due to either sheer volume, the rebels managing to blitz your capital, or you being distracted by a war a good while away. There was also the issue of whether or not you wanted to kill them, considering it could get upwards to several million of your own people you were putting down in the process, though that was mostly a player thing.
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Jul 12, 2021 16:21
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The dark secret that rebels do not get technology bonuses and thus are extremely weak to gas attack, is always a thing I remember when I have to play a country I haven't been running from the start and thus have to deal with militancy.
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Jul 12, 2021 16:26
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The rebels that form from you own army units tend to be tougher.
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Jul 12, 2021 17:12
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imagine such mismanagement that your own army units would rebel.
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Jul 12, 2021 17:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:The rebels that form from you own army units tend to be tougher. But they immediately wind up in combat with the loyal 90% of the army and get slaughtered, so it doesn't matter.
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Jul 12, 2021 17:55
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Friend Commuter posted:But they immediately wind up in combat with the loyal 90% of the army and get slaughtered, so it doesn't matter. Perhaps it could be possible that if the general decides to join the rebellion, even normally loyal units would have a strong chance of joining the rebellion because their boss did a big speech about how King Cousinefugger the 12th has betrayed his people and army or everyone just decides to follow the chain of command.
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Jul 12, 2021 18:23
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