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blastron posted:I am still not understanding this. If you need to make a call and I lend you my phone, then you drop it and crack the screen, would your argument be that you bear no responsibility to fix it since fixing the screen wouldn't benefit you at all? That if I didn't want my screen broken I shouldn't have lent you my phone? stuff like phones and living quarters are separate categories of thing so trying to draw comparisons between them doesn't really make sense to me. homes, medical care, food, clothing - literal necessities - I don't think can be compared to most traditional commodities. and in the mother-in-law unit instance, if the tenant isn't building any equity in the home that they're paying to maintain that's also bad. paying to keep a home (something you need to live) in working repair for someone else to benefit from is a form of exploitation
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Jul 13, 2021 00:26
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I think are two wholly reasonable outlooks you can have, here: first, that landlording in general is entirely unethical and immoral. Second, that landlording in America as it exists today is entirely unethical and immoral, but that landlording in general is a salvageable system. It is however worth noting that insurance on an unoccupied property is considerably higher than insurance on an occupied property, so it is entirely reasonable to argue that a tenant is a value-add.
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Jul 13, 2021 00:37
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Thanatosian posted:I think are two wholly reasonable outlooks you can have, here: first, that landlording in general is entirely unethical and immoral. Second, that landlording in aristocratic Euope as it exists today is entirely unethical and immoral, but that landlording in general is a salvageable system. Thanatosian posted:I think are two wholly reasonable outlooks you can have, here: first, that landlording in general is entirely unethical and immoral. Second, that landlording by Roman patriarchs as it exists today is entirely unethical and immoral, but that landlording in general is a salvageable system. *brands you FUG for attempting to flee slavery*
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Jul 13, 2021 01:03
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indigi posted:stuff like phones and living quarters are separate categories of thing so trying to draw comparisons between them doesn't really make sense to me. homes, medical care, food, clothing - literal necessities - I don't think can be compared to most traditional commodities. I would argue that a phone (and in most places a vehicle) are necessities in modern-day society but, yes, if it were something frivolous like a gaming console then I would not make this comparison. I think that I don't understand where you're coming from on two levels. First, you seem to be arguing for a complete abdication of personal responsibility. Remember that this discussion is about an occupant who is paying no form of rent. They cause wear on and damage to the space that wouldn't occur if it were to stand empty. If the owner of the property has to pay all repair costs, then letting someone stay in their extra space is nothing but a negative. (Again, I am not asserting that it should be a positive, just not negative.) Since the only thing you seem to care about is the value of the property, then in what world would a homeowner voluntarily take a course of action that does nothing but decrease the value of the property? Altruism is in short supply. Second, you keep asserting that the occupant gets nothing out of upkeep. I agree that a living space is a necessity, but that space must be livable. Since we're focusing solely on giving someone a place to live, then we can ignore cosmetic or comfort things like carpets and wall paint. If the toilet breaks, though, then it's in both the owner's and the occupant's interest for the toilet to be fixed. If the lights go out, then it's in both parties' interests for it to be fixed. Since we live in a world where we only care about the value of the property, though, then why would the property owner care about repairs that are only urgent to the occupant? The occupant needs the repair done immediately, though, and directly benefits from its completion. If your instinct is to reply with "boo hoo won't someone think of the poor property owners" then I will once again remind you that the core premise of the hypothetical is the property owner letting someone live in unused space with no expectation of material gain. I simply do not understand your argument unless you have an unstated assumption that anyone with extra space is obligated to share it rent-free. (The correct solution is, of course, that nobody should have extra space so this problem is moot, but that is not the discussion we are having.)
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Jul 13, 2021 01:30
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blastron posted:I would argue that a phone (and in most places a vehicle) are necessities in modern-day society but, yes, if it were something frivolous like a gaming console then I would not make this comparison. you don't die without a phone or vehicle, so, no
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Jul 13, 2021 01:33
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Thanatosian posted:I think are two wholly reasonable outlooks you can have, here: first, that landlording in general is entirely unethical and immoral. Second, that landlording in America as it exists today is entirely unethical and immoral, but that landlording in general is a salvageable system. I think that landlording is entirely unethical. No person should be in a position where they have control over any other person's basic necessities, be it shelter, food, or clothing. However, unless we get to a point where these needs are automatically and instantly provided, there will always be cases where someone can become dependent on another by circumstance. For instance, if someone flees an abusive relationship and needs to stay with a friend for a few months while they try to rebuild their life, then that friend is now in a position of power, even if they are perfectly charitable. The solution is to build a utopia where getting kicked out of your home means a week's stay at a temporary housing facility built for this exact purpose while the housing agency finds a permanent spot for you, but we aren't there yet.
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Jul 13, 2021 01:41
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indigi posted:you don't die without a phone or vehicle, so, no Hard to keep a job if you can't get there, which means you don't get money, which means you don't get food, which means you die.
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Jul 13, 2021 01:43
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blastron posted:Hard to keep a job if you can't get there, which means you don't get money, which means you don't get food, which means you die. this argument doesn't support tenant responsibility for wear and tear, it only supports mass subsidisation of phones
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Jul 13, 2021 01:50
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Spangly A posted:this argument doesn't support tenant responsibility for wear and tear, it only supports mass subsidisation of phones True on both counts, which is why I wrote an entire rest of the post about it.
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Jul 13, 2021 01:54
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indigi posted:oh sure if we're expanding it out to ~decade scale, I was talking about typical lease term length poo poo breaks from normal wear and tear as well as just time. One could make the argument that regular maintenance does not add value it simply prevents its decay.
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Jul 13, 2021 03:38
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blastron posted:I am still not understanding this. If you need to make a call and I lend you my phone, then you drop it and crack the screen, would your argument be that you bear no responsibility to fix it since fixing the screen wouldn't benefit you at all? That if I didn't want my screen broken I shouldn't have lent you my phone? The analogy with renting would be more like I pay you $50 to borrow your phone, and then if I drop it and crack the screen, you could spend part of the $50 I just gave you to fix it
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Jul 13, 2021 03:47
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blastron posted:I would argue that a phone (and in most places a vehicle) are necessities in modern-day society but, yes, if it were something frivolous like a gaming console then I would not make this comparison.
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Jul 13, 2021 04:01
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WampaLord posted:The analogy with renting would be more like I pay you $50 to borrow your phone, and then if I drop it and crack the screen, you could spend part of the $50 I just gave you to fix it The argument in this case is about charging an occupant for repairs if they're not paying any rent at all.
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Jul 13, 2021 04:28
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Cigars own and it's a shame they have been hijacked as a "rich person" indulgence instead of the awesome social activity they are.
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Jul 13, 2021 04:37
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Thanatosian posted:The lede here is deeply, deeply buried: Lol. Look if you are a single property landlord who lives in that property, you shouldn't exist, but if you do in our current system, I extended no ill-will. However, as soon a you buy property number 2, you deserve the guillotine just as much as any other landlord.
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Jul 13, 2021 04:41
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If I'm a landlord and for some reason get an apartment building, what stops me from just making it a coop? We all pay into a communal pool for repairs, and when someone leaves we give them there share of what that property is worth once we get a new tenant? e: I'm going to be honest, I don't know how coops work.
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Jul 13, 2021 05:04
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indigi posted:you don't die without a phone or vehicle, so, no You do become un-personed in modern society without those things. Maybe not a vehicle in certain metropolitan areas.
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Jul 13, 2021 05:31
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Boba Pearl posted:If I'm a landlord and for some reason get an apartment building, what stops me from just making it a coop? We all pay into a communal pool for repairs, and when someone leaves we give them there share of what that property is worth once we get a new tenant? Me either. But if I ever found myself in a position where I owned two primary residences, I'd do everything I could to unload that property asap. If that means getting a lawyer to turn the second one into a coop or whatever where the tenants "paid rent" that went into a coop fund so that eventually I could gently caress-off that's what I'd do. But fortunately the only circumstance I could see that happening would be my parents dying so...
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Jul 13, 2021 05:37
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Boba Pearl posted:If I'm a landlord and for some reason get an apartment building, what stops me from just making it a coop? Greed, mostly.
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Jul 13, 2021 05:39
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To be less pithy: If you already own the entire apartment by yourself, turning it into a coop is basically selling it to the residents one monthly payment at a time. On the other hand, you could keep all the ownership over the property while still collecting rent like the classic landlord bullshit.
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Jul 13, 2021 05:42
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Boba Pearl posted:If I'm a landlord and for some reason get an apartment building, what stops me from just making it a coop? We all pay into a communal pool for repairs, and when someone leaves we give them there share of what that property is worth once we get a new tenant? It isn't a co-op unless you live there
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Jul 13, 2021 05:50
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Land Lords a.re a land of contrasts
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Jul 13, 2021 10:54
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There is no way to salvage landlordism. If you can't collect rent above maintenance and utilities or speculate on land value there is no point owning property and all of the former things are really bad. Just collectivize all property and grandfather landlords into being salaried managers, employed by the government, over their previous holdings. Compensation and future employment will be dictated by tenants and the city government. If they're not happy about they can just gently caress off.
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Jul 13, 2021 15:51
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indigi posted:you don't die without a phone or vehicle, so, no what world do you live in 
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Jul 13, 2021 16:00
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blastron posted:Hard to keep a job if you can't get there, which means you don't get money, which means you don't get food, which means you die. I know plenty of people with jobs (most of my friends in fact) who don’t have a car and even one who doesn’t have a cellphone!
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Jul 13, 2021 16:22
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Boba Pearl posted:If I'm a landlord and for some reason get an apartment building, what stops me from just making it a coop? We all pay into a communal pool for repairs, and when someone leaves we give them there share of what that property is worth once we get a new tenant? Co-ops are like condos, except instead of you owning your apartment and paying into a communal pot for maintenance, a corporation owns your apartment, and you buy shares in that corporation. In practice, they're similar to condos, but it makes it a little easier to get a loan for major maintenance. They tend to be more communal, and you usually have to be approved by the current owners to buy into it.
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Jul 13, 2021 16:42
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Thanatosian posted:landlording in general is entirely unethical and immoral.
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Jul 13, 2021 16:59
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twain was a king. https://twitter.com/LukewSavage/status/1415038672991399937?s=20
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Jul 13, 2021 21:16
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uber_stoat posted:twain was a king. every now and then i'll look up the adaptation of "the man that corrupted hadlyberg" from the 70s with robert preston and fred gwynn and smile at a bunch of upper-class twits embarrassing themselves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXjWYtSMnzI
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Jul 13, 2021 21:38
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ok that's enough real world today https://twitter.com/BrettKelman/status/1415023788777934850
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Jul 14, 2021 00:20
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uber_stoat posted:twain was a king. Bluntly telling the truth in a world bedrocked by bullshit will never not be hilarious.
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Jul 14, 2021 12:51
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Imo being a property manager is a perfectly reasonable job to have, and if you’re managing multiple properties can even be a real bitch. like imagine managing a bunch or apartments for rich assholes in a super expensive property and knowing you make less in a year than they make in a couple months and they want you to complain to the building across the road because they think the other people have ugly curtains or some poo poo
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Jul 14, 2021 21:47
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https://twitter.com/jack/status/858138149?s=19
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Jul 14, 2021 22:03
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I dont own a car, maybe live in a city with public transit thats worth a drat
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Jul 14, 2021 22:56
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mandatory lesbian posted:I dont own a car, maybe live in a city with public transit thats worth a drat yea plenty of options there, like nyc, DC uh, chicago....
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Jul 15, 2021 00:16
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:yea plenty of options there, like nyc, DC uh, chicago.... found a likely “I don’t ride the bus cause it’s filled with poors” guy
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Jul 15, 2021 00:18
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mandatory lesbian posted:I dont own a car, maybe live in a city with public transit thats worth a drat we can't all live in the wired
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Jul 15, 2021 02:20
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Quoth the Liberal “Just move. LOL.”
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Jul 15, 2021 02:28
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:yea plenty of options there, like nyc, DC uh, chicago.... *Restrictions may apply, plot out routes for your wacky suburb ahead of time
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Jul 15, 2021 02:36
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:yea plenty of options there, like nyc, DC uh, chicago.... I live in minneapolis, bithc
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Jul 15, 2021 03:02
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