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Simply Simon posted:Also I don't think Hollow Knight does necessarily adhere to a very typical "post-game" idea. Like, you don't have to beat the final boss and get the "bad ending" to unlock the path to the "good ending". You can just keep digging deeper and deeper until you find out enough to be satisfied with. You're not killing the dream bosses to make a dry number go up, you do it because they're there, they represent unfinished business, and then you learn something about them (see: Soul Tyrant's dialogue), and you get an opportunity to learn even more from the Seer. The entire game has no obvious reason for why you're doing things you're doing. Why should it start giving you a clear motivation now? So this is ultimately where I think the narrative style of Hollow Knight has broken down for me. I get into a little more detail on this in the next episode but when I got the bad ending I was really interested in how to avoid it and potentially learning more about what caused it. The Queen's Garden was an excellent new bit for me and directly related to the question that was in front of me as a result of what happened. But now, the lack of any explanation on why the dream fights exist or why they're relevant has basically taken away that motivation. (To be clear, I'm still motivated because I like killing things) I'm just getting macguffins because the game has put an arbitrary number in front of me. Why are things suddenly stronger in the dream? Why do dead bosses even dream to begin with? Why do some bosses dream and others don't? I get that in theory these are questions that might be intended to enhance the aura of mystery around the game, but the lack of any real clue to an answer for them basically means I think they're just things the developer has decided that I have to do. Absent Tea to guide me, how long would it have taken for me to realise that I needed the Essence to continue the game? I feel like would have remained completely convinced that there was an area that I missed somewhere on the map because that's how we found the first clue. And I probably would have given up and either quit the game or looked at a wiki to solve the problem. I don't think that the game sufficiently signposts the Essence hunt as being important. In fact I think it does the exact opposite by having it tied to harder boss fights that are seemingly there at random and genuinely seem like an optional challenge for fun as well as having a bunch of largely irrelevant game rewards for its completion. It is absolutely good and fine to have mystery in your game and have things not be clear. But I genuinely feel like this is a misstep. Natural 20 fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jul 13, 2021 |
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Jul 13, 2021 12:13
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Even when you do get enough Essence, IMO, the game doesn't tell you the USE of it quite clearly enough. Especially depending on resolution/eye-sight quality. A message of (don't look Nat) 'Your Dream Nail isn't sharp enough to break through.' or similar would have helped a lot to go 'There is something here.' even if a player might interpret it at first as just spooky and sad. OTOH, I'm currently playing Bloodstain:RotN and that is like 20% worse on progression even vital progression, so maybe it's a player/genre mistmatch. On the Dark Souls (and similar) comparison, the default ending is usually still most of the content in the From Software games, and feels like an ending (Bloodborne a bit less so perhaps). And those games are intentionally built around the idea of talking and reading about stuff with other players, in the style of playground talks about secrets in NES game. tl;dr Agreed, still a great game but a misstep I also forget if the base game had a lower Essence requirement but lacked the Dream boss rematches because I never got that far/good on my first try.
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Jul 13, 2021 12:48
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Calling it the bad ending is a slight disservice. There are five endings, and I believe Team Cherry stated that none of them is meant to be any better or more true than any other. That's sort of a cop out, because as humans we like to discern quality where choice is available so it's basically impossible to look at these five endings and not go "Well, that one's obviously better," but I think there's lots of room for lively debate once we've seen more than one. Objectively, though, the ending you got is fine. The Hollow Knight was leaking, you fixed it. Why you needed to, what the problem was, how this all happened, that's what you're working towards right now. The Essence... Yeah, that's not really obvious at all how it comes into play. But there is something about the nature of dreams running through all this. You might work this out as you fight more of them, but the dream bosses are all enemies that had a dream bigger than themselves. The Warrior Dreams were fragments of will that lingered after death, refusing to recognize their situation. The dream bosses are all empowered by their own dreams and desires, letting them become idealized versions of themselves. Although honestly that only applies to everyone except Broken Vessel, I don't know what its deal is.
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Jul 13, 2021 12:48
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The way I think of Broken Vessel is it's the first vessel the king put in, it broke right away and was discarded on the way to pick up the next candidate. Its dream is the Radiance's dream.
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Jul 13, 2021 12:57
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I think having Essence as a direction to pursue is justified by the story - you're told that it's making your dream nail stronger, and the dream nail has been your main way of interacting with the main plot (taking on the dreamers and all that). It would help if your actual target in doing this was better signposted though. As for why certain bosses have dream fights, my theory is that all of them had unrealised ambitions - you've fought the things that they were, now fight what they wanted to be to claim the power of their dreams. It's definitely in speculation territory though, that's one of the points without a definite answer.
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Jul 13, 2021 13:02
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Tylana posted:Even when you do get enough Essence, IMO, the game doesn't tell you the USE of it quite clearly enough. Especially depending on resolution/eye-sight quality. A message of (don't look Nat) 'Your Dream Nail isn't sharp enough to break through.' or similar would have helped a lot to go 'There is something here.' even if a player might interpret it at first as just spooky and sad. Yeah, this would fix things. It would tell the players that 'hey, you need to improve your Dream Nail somehow', which explains why you need to run around collecting essence.
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Jul 13, 2021 13:09
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I don't think I've ever really considered the exact "why" of the Dream versions. There's two easy explanations that suffice for me, one in-universe and one meta: a) plenty of people leave their spirit behind in this game. Some in the open, some hidden in dreams. All available and interactable with by the Dream Nail. The fights are bosses who were kinda pathetic in body but dream of being much stronger, so you're fighting them how they'd wish they could fight irl. This releases essence because yada yada strong will soul energy whatever b) the developers wanted to make awesome fuckoff versions of kinda easy earlygame bosses to catch you offguard, and that owns imo and I'm super happy with them having done it no matter the reason
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Jul 13, 2021 13:25
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I've been debating this stuff with Nat too since I tend to have a more Yorkshire Tea taste in games. Getting lost and finding your way again, being a detective for environmental storytelling, even that feeling of quiet and loneliness that makes the rare encounters you do have feel more significant, these are all things I also enjoy. So I've been having a much more generous reaction to things like fighting the same bosses again in dream versions. It seems to make narrative sense to me just fine, since the dream states are obviously very central to the plot. We've fought Warrior Dreams which were already dead when we got there, but these bosses who are still alive can be fought again now that we turned them into Warrior Dreams!  And digging deeper into the mysteries of all these dreams around the whole kingdom feels like it makes sense to me, as part of the route to a more complete ending.That said, a couple more hints tastefully scattered around surely wouldn't hurt.
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Jul 13, 2021 13:29
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This is tough for me. I think, if I were in your position, I would obviously realize that there aren't any avenues available to me except getting more Essence, so it must be important enough to continue to pursue. But the way I played the game was when I did see these dream refights I looked forward to the day I could actually clear them. It wasn't something I wanted to hold back for the sake of "doing things in order" or what have you. But that's just a difference of approach I think. I'm fairly sure I got the other White Fragment piece before I found the Queen's Garden and White Lady piece, if I recall my first playthrough.
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Jul 13, 2021 14:33
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I can't say I ever questioned why the dream bosses. They were there and I had a nail, what more could I want? I do agree that the paucity of hints towards the importance of essence is a flaw.
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Jul 13, 2021 14:45
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I mean, this may also be a victim of the "LPing the game changes the way to play it" thing Nat has mentioned several times. Looks like he was seeing them as post-game bosses and wanted to fight them all in quick succession in a round-up video. Even right after the fight with Soul Master when he first discovered the re-fight I think he mentioned he might have taken a few more shots at Soul Tyrant right away if he hadn't been LPing and more interested in providing new content than having potentially a video or more of him beating his head against Soul Tyrant.
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Jul 13, 2021 14:47
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Fantastic Foreskin posted:I can't say I ever questioned why the dream bosses. They were there and I had a nail, what more could I want? This was my attitude, but toward the whole game. "Amazing world to explore, cool combat to be had, let's do it. Don't need a reason!"
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Jul 13, 2021 15:08
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Cactus posted:This was my attitude, but toward the whole game.
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Jul 13, 2021 15:11
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They're not deluded though, there is a story, it's just not presented in a way and with enough completeness that intrerests me personally in games like this, especially where the gameplay and environments you play in stand up on their own as well as they do in Hollow Knight and Dark Souls.
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Jul 13, 2021 16:03
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Nat's ran into the thorny problem that there's still plenty of places left on the map to explore, it's just that those places aren't really visible on the map anymore. They're in areas that has shown up as "complete" on the map. This isn't normally a problem when playing normally since you would just recheck, but from a LP perspective, I get it. Yorkshire Tea will have to assist in that, but at this moment, the only lead Nat has, are gathering essence and dlc, which means dream bosses. I understand why Nat wanted to save them for the end, but they're actually not end-game content.
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Jul 13, 2021 16:20
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Also, to Tea Just make Nat go save the crying bug. #Non-patronOpinion
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Jul 13, 2021 16:25
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I enjoy what story there is to hollow knight, but in terms of reasons I love the game it's somewhere near the bottom of the list. The story does serve the atmosphere very well though, and the atmosphere is somewhere near the topic.
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Jul 13, 2021 16:43
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The story is relatively simple (if pretty neat imo) but it definitely serves more to build atmosphere and emotion than to, like, reinvent Shakespeare for the modern age. The thing that's great about Hollow Knight isn't that the story is told through lore fragments, because that would be incredibly stupid, it's that the lore fragments are all entirely cohesive and serve to give weight to the plot. They're worldbuilding, they aren't the plot itself.
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Jul 14, 2021 05:48
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Jul 14, 2021 23:05
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Based on Nat's comments from last episode, I was worried that we were going to spend a few episodes with him wandering around trying to figure out where to go next, but it seems like he's been paying attention more than he's let on. Also, please ignore what this thread said about "proper load out". SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 00:12
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The real Hollow Knight starts here! Or something. ...Actually this is literally the worst place to have your dash crap out randomly. Is it a game glitch or a controller problem? Either way,  I also have some problems with the storytelling, just because I miss subtext or can't piece everything together or I forget poo poo. I usually just wait a week and then see if other, more attentive gamers have sorted it out. Edit: I love the weird noises the Seer makes. YggiDee fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 00:24
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Jul 15, 2021 01:09
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I know you've probably already recorded this but I really hope you didn't take hiveblood for the white place. I think you don't have the right charm for the duo I'm thinking of that is much better. Nat didn't find Deep Focus yet, right? That and Grubsong is much more fast than waiting around for hiveblood. I suppose there's no choice in that case. I loving loved the white palace, and was sort of disappointed there wasn't more sections like it. And yes I'm aware of path of pain and hope Nat goes through it eventually.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:49
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Jul 15, 2021 01:50
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So, regarding the story's lack of explicitness - and spoilering this just because you didn't talk to the character in question again - there is one more Moth Seer reward, for collecting 2400 experience, where she explains what happened in pretty clear terms.
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Jul 15, 2021 06:39
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Finally, White Palace! The final "challenge" that is "required" for the "good ending". Re: story, I didn't put it together on my own, but that's okay, because the game was fun to play and I enjoyed the act of playing it. It didn't matter that I didn't understand it implicitly, really, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've never been good at understanding and putting together story even when it is explicit though, so eh.
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Jul 15, 2021 07:28
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Jul 16, 2021 23:47
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Argh, you didn't even sit on the throne! What kind of usurping murderhobo are you!?  Also that hallway in the thumbnail? It's skippable.
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Jul 16, 2021 23:52
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Ah, White Palace. If I recall correctly the devs took advantage of it being technically optional (in the sense that the other ending is technically optional) to go ham on making the penultimate platforming challenge. Personally, I enjoy it. But then I enjoyed Super Meat Boy and Celeste a lot too. Just a little thought, but I don't think those soul totems in the palace resemble the King.
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Jul 17, 2021 01:03
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The way I think of it, there’s two parts to this game’s post game, the Queen’s Gardens and the White Palace. The Queen’s Gardens serves as the game’s “final” combat challenge, while the white palace is the game’s final platforming challenge. The issue of not necessarily being able to see obstacles in advance never really bothered me about the white palace. Yes you learn about those obstacles by being hit by them, but for the vast majority of players that’s how you learn about combat challenges too. Chances are you learn that the suicide bugs in the infected crossroads explode by having one run at you and explode; now you know those bugs explode. You dash offscreen and hit into a saw; now you know there’s a saw there. And like, after the palace pulls that trick on you once, you’re primed whenever you’re doing a blind jump like that to expect that you might need to react quickly. Not trying to say anyone who hated it was wrong, just explaining why none of those issues bothered me. Question regarding the LP though, is that 30 minute episode Nat’s actual real-time run, or is it edited for time, because if he did that so easily on his first run it’s amazingly impressive.
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Jul 17, 2021 02:08
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Now here's a question. Everyone knows Mario of Nintendo fame's name. He says it all the time. "It's a me, Mario!" Very clear enunciation. Despite this, why did Tea call him marry-o?
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Jul 17, 2021 02:28
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bewilderment posted:Now here's a question. Tea is clearly Fludd.
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Jul 17, 2021 02:57
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Just chiming in to say that I've caught up on this LP having just finished my own run through, which seems to have gone pretty similar to Nat's. I think that, like him, I came at the game with the knowledge that it was very much a tough-but-fair system that rewarded cautious and precise play, and that knowledge was very helpful. The Watcher Knights are the only boss that gave me significantly more trouble than him, something about that fight just hosed me up. The white palace worked fine for me, and the spike platforming was otherwise pretty much the only thing about this game that I didn't like. I feel like by this stage in the game you've had more than enough practice at the platforming to succeed here.
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Jul 17, 2021 03:28
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my thoughts for those spikes where you needed to get by 4 at once, why not crystal dash? I feel that would have put you through it much more safely.
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Jul 17, 2021 04:02
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god that hallway  I'll give Team Cherry credit for that one at least, that's definitely the worst section and they put a breakable wall there to allow people to skip it. The switch is also within range of a charged dash slash so you can skip that whole area there too. There are plenty of interesting way to get around some areas there. Marluxia fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jul 17, 2021 |
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Jul 17, 2021 05:41
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I really should look up an optimal White Palace run one of these days. Like, not exactly a TAS, but a well-performed trick-using run, you know? I'll admit I felt kind of burned out by the White Palace. One of my few screenshots from my time playing the game was the jump under the buzzsaw in the sky after the spikey hallway. I mean, at least with the spikey hallway I knew there were empty spots and blind areas to stand well enough. It was theoretically possible. That jump felt so impossible to me for so long. I didn't really internalize the dash first and then jump sorta thing there. It was very rough my first time. I blazed though it much easier my second time. But I don't begrudge anyone who dislikes it overall, or even thinks it makes the game bad as a whole. It's much easier to look back on it now and think ahahaha what a fun little romp.
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Jul 17, 2021 07:31
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Holding down allows you to look downwards, so that's why there's a lot of jump traps, you can see down.
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Jul 17, 2021 07:33
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White Palace is a definite indicator of how Hallownest fell. The King shifted all of his budget into defense, and then spent all of it on buzzsaws.
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Jul 17, 2021 07:53
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Dareon posted:White Palace is a definite indicator of how Hallownest fell. The King shifted all of his budget into defense, and then spent all of it on buzzsaws. 
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Jul 17, 2021 09:15
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Reveilled posted:Question regarding the LP though, is that 30 minute episode Nat’s actual real-time run, or is it edited for time, because if he did that so easily on his first run it’s amazingly impressive. That was all one take, my editing wouldn't be that clean.
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Jul 17, 2021 10:35
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