|
stev posted:Also the actual version of events isn't really different from the fake story the TVA was given. They were created to prune branching timelines and stop a multiverse war from breaking out. The only real difference is that Kang himself seems to be the main cause of the war (as opposed to the millions of other war mongers in every timeline). He didn't really need to go to the trouble of building robot Time Keepers. I was thinking about the robot time keepers thing. I think it fits this characterisation of a dude who is just trying to stop universe-level destruction and isn't trying to rule or anything. Like, he's created a system to keep things in order, including fake people in charge - I guess because he knows that his ego is potentially a dangerous thing to feed. This is a Kang who has done a fair amount of therapy.
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 18:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 15:03 |
|
|
stev posted:I feel like I have so many logistical questions about how Kang works and how he does what he does. This is just another one of those things where I think comic readers are more primed for the events of the series than your average viewer. I watch this and it clicks with me immediately. But I've had nearly 30 years experience reading timeline changes like Age of Apocalypse, Heroes Reborn, Secret Wars, all the Infinity and Kang events. This kind of upheaval is like second nature to me because all of my favorite Marvel books deal with these kinds of bigger cosmic concepts. I can understand why someone who doesn't have that knowledge might be rather confused. The actual ending didn't really shock me because as soon as she stabbed him my first though was that now the Conqueror is going to be the one in charge of the TVA. Mobius being reset did surprise me a little but I knew as soon as one Kang was dead another would have already taken his place in the time stream. And that's just from years of reading this stuff. X-O fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jul 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 18:48
|
|
|
Terrible theory time Sylvie and Loki on Lamentis nearly vertical red-lined because their child would become a variant Kang.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 18:53
|
|
|
Right, the TVA exists outside of time but is constantly operating throughout all of time simultaneously to stop the timeline from branching and resulting in Kangs. So once He Who Remains is dead there’s no one directing the TVA to prune branches, no orders coming from above. It’s chaos, which is what you see in that next-to-last scene. And since every moment in time happens simultaneously for the TVA, by the time Loki finds Möbius at the end some variant Conqueror Kang has already changed things, taken control, and altered the TVA. Or at least that’s my interpretation of it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 18:53
|
|
|
live with fruit posted:I got the impression that Not Kang went loopy from the isolation. It reminds me of a Justice League episode where Superman went centuries (possibly thousands of years) into the future where Vandal Savage is the only around and has been since accidentally destroying the Earth. Normally entirely stoic, Savage is so excited to see anyone that he's like a child inviting a new friend over to see his cool toys.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 18:56
|
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:Right, the TVA exists outside of time but is constantly operating throughout all of time simultaneously to stop the timeline from branching and resulting in Kangs. So once He Who Remains is dead there’s no one directing the TVA to prune branches, no orders coming from above. It’s chaos, which is what you see in that next-to-last scene. And since every moment in time happens simultaneously for the TVA, by the time Loki finds Möbius at the end some variant Conqueror Kang has already changed things, taken control, and altered the TVA. Well, one thing to consider is that Sylvie was alone in the Time Castle after she killed TVA-Kang. Maybe she's posing as him at the top end and sent Loki through to try to sort things out at ground level.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 18:57
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:I was thinking about the robot time keepers thing. I think it fits this characterisation of a dude who is just trying to stop universe-level destruction and isn't trying to rule or anything. Like, he's created a system to keep things in order, including fake people in charge - I guess because he knows that his ego is potentially a dangerous thing to feed. This is a Kang who has done a fair amount of therapy. There's also the statues of the timekeepers in mansion, with a fourth statue toppled and broken. I'm guessing that those were just put there as a red herring to imply that the man behind the curtain was a fourth time keeper who had killed the other three and replaced them with robots, but there also needs to be a reason in the narrative for them to be there. Maybe He Who Remains is just be the last survivor of a small group of Kang variants that started the TVA or something, and the timekeepers were real at one point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
Also, when Jonathan Winters was giving his backstory about inventing so much crazy time/space travel poo poo that he ended up meeting with, collaborating with and fighting with infinite variants of himself, did anyone else's mind immediately get drawn to the citadel of Ricks? edit: i guess its more that the latter is inspired by some version of the former fro mthe comics which makes way more sense
The Grumbles fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:04
|
|
|
no, because rick thinks time travel is lame
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:07
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:Also, when Jonathan Winters was giving his backstory about inventing so much crazy time/space travel poo poo that he ended up meeting with, collaborating with and fighting with infinite variants of himself, did anyone else's mind immediately get drawn to the citadel of Ricks? Elon Musk thought this.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:07
|
|
|
The nexus event on Lamentis was Loki and Sylvie dying in an apocalypse rather than making it to the end of time This is what I’m rolling with
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
I feel like they stuck the landing, which is surprising, and due entirely to great acting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:09
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:Also, when Jonathan Winters was giving his backstory about inventing so much crazy time/space travel poo poo that he ended up meeting with, collaborating with and fighting with infinite variants of himself, did anyone else's mind immediately get drawn to the citadel of Ricks? I mean, the latter is just a rip-off of/homage to the former/the Council of Reeds
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:09
|
|
|
Sockser posted:The nexus event on Lamentis was Loki and Sylvie dying in an apocalypse rather than making it to the end of time I like this
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:10
|
|
|
Klungar posted:I mean, the latter is just a rip-off of/homage to the former/the Council of Reeds That would be the Interdimensional Council of Reeds, tyvm 
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
^^^^ do you ever get to find out anything about fat reed Klungar posted:I mean, the latter is just a rip-off of/homage to the former/the Council of Reeds I mean as someone not au fait with comic books something like that did cross my mind as more likely an explanation
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
They can have a bald reed but if you have hair you MUST have a grey streak.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
This was an extended trailer for an unrelated movie, and not a season finale in any meaningful way. Kang left me completely cold; I was reminded of BBC Sherlock's Moriarty, a hollow two-legged plot device carried only by an actor's ker-aazzzzzy performance. Outside of the central mystery of the TVA, which sagged to a flop, none of the show's threads saw closure. What was the Loki nexus event? Where was Renslayer going? What was B-15 trying to do? Of course, none of these threads matter anymore, because it's all been reset. If this was mid-season, it'd be acceptable as a table-setter for the closure. But it wasn't and it ain't.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Squidster posted:This was an extended trailer for an unrelated movie, and not a season finale in any meaningful way. Kang left me completely cold; I was reminded of BBC Sherlock's Moriarty, a hollow two-legged plot device carried only by an actor's ker-aazzzzzy performance. That's how a lot of shows roll. And even then, the TVA has effectively been taken down, at least in our Mobius' timeline.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
Squidster posted:This was an extended trailer for an unrelated movie, and not a season finale in any meaningful way. Kang left me completely cold; I was reminded of BBC Sherlock's Moriarty, a hollow two-legged plot device carried only by an actor's ker-aazzzzzy performance. B-15 was showing her colleagues that they were variants by showing them Renslayer pre-TVA - I thought that one was pretty obvious? And I don't know why people are treating the Loki nexus event like some big mystery. It's either that they fell in love, or (less likely) that they were about to die and weren't supposed to. It hasn't all been reset - I bet Renslayer has actually got out. It's setting up for a second season.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:Also, when Jonathan Winters was giving his backstory about inventing so much crazy time/space travel poo poo that he ended up meeting with, collaborating with and fighting with infinite variants of himself, did anyone else's mind immediately get drawn to the citadel of Ricks? edit: i guess its more that the latter is inspired by some version of the former fro mthe comics which makes way more sense The showrunner's only prior writing experience is an episode of Rick & Morty, and being the GM's assistant on Dan Harmon's Actual Play D&D show, so I'm willing to bet he's familiar with the concept.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:28
|
|
|
Klungar posted:I mean, the latter is just a rip-off of/homage to the former/the Council of Reeds Which in itself is a direct reference to the Council of Kangs. Robot Style posted:There's also the statues of the timekeepers in mansion, with a fourth statue toppled and broken. I'm guessing that those were just put there as a red herring to imply that the man behind the curtain was a fourth time keeper who had killed the other three and replaced them with robots, but there also needs to be a reason in the narrative for them to be there. Maybe He Who Remains is just be the last survivor of a small group of Kang variants that started the TVA or something, and the timekeepers were real at one point. This might be a super obscure reference to the comics as well as there was a fourth one who was exiled.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
Squidster posted:This was an extended trailer for an unrelated movie, and not a season finale in any meaningful way. Kang left me completely cold; I was reminded of BBC Sherlock's Moriarty, a hollow two-legged plot device carried only by an actor's ker-aazzzzzy performance. There's a second series. But yeah, all 3 shows feel like a big budget equivilant of a comic book tie in to a film that's definitely 'canon' even though it came out the merchandising department and none of the filmmakers even likely know it even exists. Well, except Wandavision, that had an actual arc and stuff. Falcon and the Winter Soldier was the worst offender, where the characters starting and end point was exactly where we left them after Endgame, but this also felt like 4 hours to setup what'll be 2 minutes exposition dump in Dr Strange 2. Fun ride though. I still enjoyed the show, even if the nature of it means they can't ever have a definitive and significant ending.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:34
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:The showrunner's only prior writing experience is an episode of Rick & Morty, and being the GM's assistant on Dan Harmon's Actual Play D&D show, so I'm willing to bet he's familiar with the concept. There's literally a Council of Kangs in the canon, from the 80s. Good lord https://twitter.com/afraidofwasps/status/1177301482464526337
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:36
|
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:Right, the TVA exists outside of time but is constantly operating throughout all of time simultaneously to stop the timeline from branching and resulting in Kangs. So once He Who Remains is dead there’s no one directing the TVA to prune branches, no orders coming from above. It’s chaos, which is what you see in that next-to-last scene. And since every moment in time happens simultaneously for the TVA, by the time Loki finds Möbius at the end some variant Conqueror Kang has already changed things, taken control, and altered the TVA. Either idea might work! Also thanks to the goon who pointed out that the ending was like Planet of the Apes . I was trying to remember where I had seen something like that but I was so sleepy that my brain wasn't processing poo poo well lol (I'm still sleepy). Now I wanna see if Loki is gonna take his new accidental analyst job and try to get Mobius and everyone's memories back. Or if he's gonna freak out and be on the run trying to get back to the end of time. Either way, the God of Chaos was unaffected by whatever happened, and chaos is what he should plant in the TVA.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:38
|
|
|
I'm curious when Loki season 2 will come out and how it'll fit into the MCU. Seems weird if everything is still a mess after Multiverse of Madness, Quantumania and Fantastic Four.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:42
|
|
|
Everyone posted:I admit that after that I kind of want some kind of "stand-alone" episode to discover how Ravonna Renslayer, schoolteacher variented enough to become Judge Renslayer Well summed up and agreed about Eccelston's 9th Doctor. I was always a bit sad it only lasted a season as I liked his take on the Doctor; also I am a sucker for male and female relationships in tv/movies that don't involve romance but more of a respect between people. Gavok posted:It reminds me of a Justice League episode where Superman went centuries (possibly thousands of years) into the future where Vandal Savage is the only around and has been since accidentally destroying the Earth. Normally entirely stoic, Savage is so excited to see anyone that he's like a child inviting a new friend over to see his cool toys. That was such a great moment... especially Supes feeling a friendship with a guy that full on admitted to genocide and atrocities on an almost undreamt scale but here he was, thousands of years later, a broken old man alone and in pain. The fact that Superman felt sympathy even for him was such a good Superman chracter moment that I wish more people would remember. One of the best parts of Superman isn't the power and abilities but the fact that someone with those abilities still ends up somehow keeping a compassionate and generous heart. To Superman saving kittens in trees and giving a uplifting speech to children is just as, if not more important, than punching Darkseid in his ugly mug. Like the LEGION told him.... Superman's true gift is hope to be better and create a better world. I'll stop gushing about Superman now. Azhais posted:That would be the Interdimensional Council of Reeds, tyvm On topic: rewatched again and still love it. The final episode closing credits Loki theme again felt very Dr Who. DogsInSpace! fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
live with fruit posted:I'm curious when Loki season 2 will come out and how it'll fit into the MCU. Seems weird if everything is still a mess after Multiverse of Madness, Quantumania and Fantastic Four. I suppose we don't know if phase 4 will end up being a self contained multiverse story or the start of another decade long arc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:44
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:B-15 was showing her colleagues that they were variants by showing them Renslayer pre-TVA - I thought that one was pretty obvious? And I don't know why people are treating the Loki nexus event like some big mystery. It's either that they fell in love, or (less likely) that they were about to die and weren't supposed to. It hasn't all been reset - I bet Renslayer has actually got out. It's setting up for a second season. Sure, B-15 is turning her colleagues. That's the setup; what was the payoff? What payoff can there be in future, now that it's been reset? If the nexus event is that the two Lokis fell in love, it contradicts the rule that anything done during an apocalypse doesn't matter. I think you're right that their romance is supposed to be what triggered it, but it remains an unforced error. The show had a fun ride, but like Wanda and Falcon, nosedived in the finale. The most fun parts of the show were Loki and Moebios sparring, and the reset removes even that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:45
|
|
|
stev posted:I suppose we don't know if phase 4 will end up being a self contained multiverse story or the start of another decade long arc. There's also the question of how Val's Dark Avengers and the Young Avengers fit in.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
I was kind of surprised that Loki and Sylvie were presented the choice of either running the TVA as it is or killing He Who Remains and immediately causing a Multiverse war and then not quickly realizing there's a third option: That of killing He Who Remains. And killing the variant that comes after him. And the one after him. And the one after him. On and on. And then reforging the TVA to be an organization that doesn't prune timelines but protects all of them by fighting everyone that would try and take over any timeline not their own. Because there are other trans-timeline threats in the Marvel comics, from God Emperor Doom to the Inheritors of the Spider-Verse to the Council of Reeds, etc. I assume that's what's going to happen eventually in season 2 or beyond. Also, I don't think the ending is really an advertisement for Quantummania or that the movie will require viewers to have seen Loki. The Kang of that film will likely be introduced as someone looking to take over the Multiverse and will likely be less powerful than a He Who Remains that's already conquered all the other variants. No previous viewing required to understand the new character (and they will effectively be a new character) in that route.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
DogsInSpace! posted:That was the arc with the "fixed" Dooms right? Can't remember who wrote that but I loved that arc. Reed Richards as always been more frightening to me than Doom. Doom is held in check by ego which limits him... Reed Richards doesn't have that flaw. My personal take is the rest of the FF are the main thing that keep Reed from turning into the most dangerous villain in the 616.Majors could pull off an amazing Reed Richards. Is it wrong I kinda want him teamed up with Idris Elba as Benjamin Grimm? That's not even really subtext or a theory. It's in the text of the story. The 616 Reed is the only recorded Reed that doesn't go evil. Because he's the only one with a family. It's a big part of the arc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 19:59
|
|
|
Loved that enraged-guilty-self-justifying: "I...weaponized Alioth. I ended the Multiversal War!" Because in that one statement he's admitting to being a greater monster than any other in creation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:00
|
|
|
One thing that stands out is that by the end of this season, Loki has become an EXTREMELY passive protagonist. He tried ineffectually to get the upper hand for roughly the first two episodes, and then got broken down to the point where he was essentially tagging along with the actual movers and shakers. I wonder if the intention there is that the next season will build him up again. He's now in a version of the TVA that has no beef with him, and this time he knows way more than they do-- exactly the opposite of where he started, and the sort of situation the old Loki would actually have been able to successfully twist to his advantage.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:01
|
|
|
drat. I Loved Majors/Immortus but hated absolutely everything else about this episode lmao. It just dumped so much poo poo without actually resolving or answering.... anything of consequence in relation to Loki himself? Felt like Loki's show just got hijacked to introduced a proper new multi-verse and Kang for future projects at the expense of Loki. What a bummer X-O posted:That's not even really subtext or a theory. It's in the text of the story. The 616 Reed is the only recorded Reed that doesn't go evil. Because he's the only one with a family. It's a big part of the arc. That's not entirely it. Other Reeds have had families but they always lose them to the work. 616's Reed works because he's the only one with a father who steers him back to his family
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:05
|
|
|
X-O posted:That's not even really subtext or a theory. It's in the text of the story. The 616 Reed is the only recorded Reed that doesn't go evil. Because he's the only one with a family. It's a big part of the arc. Hah... it feels like I read that a century ago and sad my memory forgot that rather important part. Thanks X-O. Who was it that wrote that or the name of the arc so I can find it again in TPB? I want to say Hickman but it really feels like centuries ago. I always loved my comics since I was a toddler but took a long break until recently. Trying to find TPBs of all those cbrs I used to have. Still want to find those old hard drives as I had like every Batman, X-Men, Avengers, FF, Thor and so on from the start. Was like a treasure trove of comic archives that are probably sitting in some relatives basement/attic.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:09
|
|
|
Hickman was the one that did the council of Reed, yes. They've shown up a couple more times after. His run starts with Fantastic Four #570
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:11
|
|
|
Happy Noodle Boy posted:That's not entirely it. Other Reeds have had families but they always lose them to the work. 616's Reed works because he's the only one with a father who steers him back to his family Well I didn't want to get into the details. But yeah. DogsInSpace! posted:Hah... it feels like I read that a century ago and sad my memory forgot that rather important part. Thanks X-O. Who was it that wrote that or the name of the arc so I can find it again in TPB? I want to say Hickman but it really feels like centuries ago. I always loved my comics since I was a toddler but took a long break until recently. Trying to find TPBs of all those cbrs I used to have. Still want to find those old hard drives as I had like every Batman, X-Men, Avengers, FF, Thor and so on from the start. Was like a treasure trove of comic archives that are probably sitting in some relatives basement/attic. Jonathan Hickman.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
Squidster posted:
Actions inside the apocalypse don't matter because everything is being destroyed anyway, but the bonding they experience there matters since they survive and keep going until meeting Kang. (And it's not an exact science, that's the explanation they give. Doesn't mean it's an universal rule)
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 15:03 |
|
|
DogsInSpace! posted:
Yeah, it was in the excellent Hickman run on Fantastic Four and Future Foundation. Majors would def work for Reed but I'd hope they'd avoid erasing Ben Grimm's Jewish heritage since I think it's relevant to his character. Elba could be good as Doom, but again, it would come with a set of issues from erasing a prominent Romani character's ethnicity.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2021 20:13
|
|