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I liked Tom Hiddleston and Owen Wilson, they were both very charming. I would have watched the hell out of a buddy cop / cat and mouse series based on those two. I liked the Big Bad after *that* point. He really sold the fear and an odd joy of not knowing what would happen next. I liked the visuals, the whole retro future look of the TVA, and a lot of the side characters (Old Loki!) The rest didn't grab me as much as it did others here. In part due to not being a comics person, in part due to not being a sci Fi / Dr who person. It wasn't bad it just wasn't for me.
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Jul 15, 2021 08:41
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I guess this pretty much retroactively neutered the stakes for Endgame. It didn't matter how many possible futures Dr. Strange saw. I mean obviously they were going to beat Thanos because it's a movie, but now in-universe they were always going to win as well, they just didn't know it. I think that's right. E: Also why aren't there more aliens in the TVA Georgia Peach fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 08:47
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I really liked the Ragnorak style music at the very end when Loki was trying to find his friends who now don't even recognize him. I like stories where one person knows everything but can't convince the other people they aren't crazy.
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Jul 15, 2021 08:50
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Georgia Peach posted:Also why aren't there more aliens in the TVA It's run by a human from Earth who is kind of an rear end in a top hat. He's racist.
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Jul 15, 2021 09:17
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Georgia Peach posted:I guess this pretty much retroactively neutered the stakes for Endgame. It didn't matter how many possible futures Dr. Strange saw. I mean obviously they were going to beat Thanos because it's a movie, but now in-universe they were always going to win as well, they just didn't know it. I think that's right. Maybe he met Kang on the astral plane, they had a chat and he showed him some things. They could retcon that in pretty easy. Goffer fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 09:32
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Yeah that was deeply unsatisfying I know who Kang is but I didn't think they'd just drop a whole rear end new character in right at the climax, resolve nothing, then end with "watch season 2!". Would have been better to have been a Loki variant with the exact same motivations, in a classic "I stopped something worse by becoming a monster" sort of way.
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Jul 15, 2021 09:36
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I think the crux of the narrative problem is that we are told exactly what the stakes are right at the start of episode 1, then we watch 6 episodes of the protagonist saying "I don't care about these stakes at all and this isn't want the story is about", only for the show to try to do an 11th hour volte-face and say 'no actually you should care about the timelines splitting'. e: I also don't think it helps that 8 years of Rick and Morty has probably ruined this villain. I don't think people will be able to take him seriously Alchenar fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 09:43
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Its Rinaldo posted:I liked the show, the characters were all great. Majors ate the loving scenery like that apple. But as far as a cap off to a show it was a let down. Except it wasn't meant to cap off the show because there's going to be another season. The whole season was about Sylvie trying to bring down the TVA and she fid and now the second season will probably be about the consequences of it. Personally, it reminds me of Mr. Robot in that way. It really was a pretty standard ending to a sub-prestige TV show: wrap up the main adventure while setting the stage for the next season.
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Jul 15, 2021 09:45
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Yeah that was deeply unsatisfying I know who Kang is but I didn't think they'd just drop a whole rear end new character in right at the climax, resolve nothing, then end with "watch season 2!". Would have been better to have been a Loki variant with the exact same motivations, in a classic "I stopped something worse by becoming a monster" sort of way. That would have been cool. Not exactly the same but reminds me of an old Iron Man comic where Doctor Doom met his future self and killed him because he
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Jul 15, 2021 10:02
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Yeah that was deeply unsatisfying I know who Kang is but I didn't think they'd just drop a whole rear end new character in right at the climax, resolve nothing, then end with "watch season 2!". Would have been better to have been a Loki variant with the exact same motivations, in a classic "I stopped something worse by becoming a monster" sort of way. Ooh yes, a Chain of Loki's who have gone through the same journey to reach that point and then make the decision to become the monster to stop Kang. It would be very Stephen King for Loki to go through all that struggle and trial to change and become a good person and distance themselves from the awful person they were before, only to discover that at the end of their journey being a good person means becoming a monster in order to prevent the end of everything.
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Jul 15, 2021 10:09
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He Who Remains' perspective/philosophy reminded me of that of the Spiral King from Gurren Lagann. And rejection of that fatalism had a similar feeling to it. (Here's to Loki and Sylvie finding that all the stars in the sky are allies rather than enemies.) Jonathan Majors did amazing work. You could see the seeds of potential other takes on the character just below the surface. Majors can loving act. Can't wait to see the variant selves. We've only met the "light-hearted" one, the least malevolent devil. So much better a means of foreshadowing a big bad than what Thanos emergently ended up with. And potential mcu audience doesn't need to have seen Loki before seeing mcu properties going forwards, because the only character "introduced" here gets killed off in the very same episode. Any variant that we meet in a later mcu release is definitionally a different character, with their own necessary introductions required. We've merely seen their... preview. The production design for the end-setting was fantastic. Once we finally got to ya boi's desk in the library with the circular view of the singularity behind him... wow, I was getting Mage vibes and so much more besides. ...I really need to rewatch that cgi sequence from the start of the episode. I don't think Disney+ lets you go frame-by-frame; I may see if anyone has isolated it for youtube or something. There were tons of cosmic/cosmological/nerdwank implications covered in such a short space of time; it was glorious.
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Jul 15, 2021 10:30
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Georgia Peach posted:I guess this pretty much retroactively neutered the stakes for Endgame. It didn't matter how many possible futures Dr. Strange saw. I mean obviously they were going to beat Thanos because it's a movie, but now in-universe they were always going to win as well, they just didn't know it. I think that's right. I mean, I guess it depends whether he who remains is in the background making sure that they win, which isn't really clear here. I agree that introducing an even bigger puppetmaster can sometimes flatten the stakes for everything prior in that Metal Gear Solid kinda way. But I feel like just because there's someone out there who knows how a scenario plays out doesn't automatically remove the agency of the people who have played it out.
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Jul 15, 2021 10:53
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The Grumbles posted:I mean, I guess it depends whether he who remains is in the background making sure that they win, which isn't really clear here. I agree that introducing an even bigger puppetmaster can sometimes flatten the stakes for everything prior in that Metal Gear Solid kinda way. But I feel like just because there's someone out there who knows how a scenario plays out doesn't automatically remove the agency of the people who have played it out. I wonder if eliminating half of all life had any effect on not-quite-Kang's existence. Either it would have prevented him from existing at all, in which case he (or whoever is pulling strings) kept the one possible timeline where he's the one to keep the other versions from existing. Or perhaps removing half of everyone led to something worse down the line. Or maybe it was that way just because it was always that way in that one particular timeline. They did say the Avengers did what they had to do, presumably to keep the sacred timeline intact. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into the significance of the events in those Avengers movies compared to the entirety of MCU time and space. Georgia Peach fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 11:25
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It only neutered Endgame in a nihilistic "nothing ultimately matters" kind of. For Tony, the existence of everything he cares about was at risk. He didn't know about the TVA.
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Jul 15, 2021 11:31
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I'm gonna assume the Kang we met comes from the timeline where Infinity War happened and Thanos was defeated, and the TVA's meddling just prevented other timelines where Thanos wins from existing. So it's not so much that what we saw was inevitable or didn't matter, just that the alternative outcomes would have been wiped out of existence if they came to pass.
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Jul 15, 2021 11:44
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Georgia Peach posted:I wonder if eliminating half of all life had any effect on not-quite-Kang's existence. Either it would have prevented him from existing at all, in which case he (or whoever is pulling strings) kept the one possible timeline where he's the one to keep the other versions from existing. Or perhaps removing half of everyone led to something worse down the line. Or maybe it was that way just because it was always that way in that one particular timeline. The 'they did what they had to do' thing is in reference to the avengers time travelling - that's not in violation of the TVA, because them bouncing around time is within the bounds of the sacred timeline. But yeah, its probably the case that the dude we keep spoilering even though nobody's going to be reading this thread if they're at all concerned about spoilers and also it's obvious who we're talking about anyway didn't intervene because the avengers winning was the favoured outcome. You can see them going in and pruning universes where that doesn't happen though, involving variants of the avengers. Hence thanos copter.
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Jul 15, 2021 11:45
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The Grumbles posted:the dude we keep spoilering even though nobody's going to be reading this thread if they're at all concerned about spoilers and also it's obvious who we're talking about anyway lol force of habit.
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Jul 15, 2021 12:00
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I'm just catching up with the last few pages of this thread as I just watched the whole thing over the last week. I had a quick question which was mentioned a couple of pages back as a loose thread plot point but I wanted to see if I missed something. What did Sylvie's time grenade things do when she sent them through the portal doors in the walmart during the hurricane? There was no major damage in the TVA and other than the quick graphic of the multiple timelines splitting off, I was either not paying attention (possible) or they just really didn't address what she was doing with them. Sorry if this has been gone over already, this thread is freaking huge.
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Jul 15, 2021 12:02
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AFewBricksShy posted:I'm just catching up with the last few pages of this thread as I just watched the whole thing over the last week. It was a distraction to empty the TVA.
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Jul 15, 2021 12:04
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Red Rox posted:In terms of where Ravonna went... I'd put big money on her traveling to Kang's "natural" place on the sacred timeline pre-timeline-discovery. The paperwork from Ms Minutes was the transcript of the entire Lokii-HHM meeting and conversation all the way up to the decision threshold, and Kang got his designs for the Temppad, pruning stick, and entire TVA from Ravonna after she falls in love with the only human in the entirety of existence that has/deserves free will
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Jul 15, 2021 12:36
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stev posted:I'm gonna assume the Kang we met comes from the timeline where Infinity War happened and Thanos was defeated, and the TVA's meddling just prevented other timelines where Thanos wins from existing. The TVA only allows for one timeline. Period. We see this at the end First the disc around the castle begins branching as soon as he's stabbed and then when Loki goes back to the TVA they're rapidly pruning timelines. The Remaining Kang (both the dead one and the new one) seem to understand that the only way to ensure there is no multiverse war is for there to be no branching timelines. And each branch represents a threat to him. Dead kang did it out of beneveloence. I assume that as villain for Ant Man new Kang wants a throne.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:08
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surf rock posted:I groaned at the ending and the tease of a second season. What movies in the MCU did you like?
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Jul 15, 2021 13:24
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Chieves posted:Did anyone else roll their eyes when they included the loving "love persevering" in the same montage as quotes from civil rights leaders? I did lol, like they graduated from "actually this isn't a superhero movie it's more of a 70s espionage thriller" to "it's basically Goodfellas but with superheroes" to "MCU dialog is as important as the work of civil rights leaders the world over"  Also lol the line they chose from Black Widow like from her first scene in Avengers, shows what a nothing character she was throughout the movies.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:24
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BrianWilly posted:Pro-tip: a fictional character can be as vile and irredeemable as they want as long as it's interesting or compelling to watch. A little late on this but I think the point of contention is that it seema like Wandavision wasn't deep enough or introspective enough to realize or grapple with how villainous Wanda's actions were. Rambeau's last line, the focus on Wanda's tragedy, it felt like the writer's had been captured by their own main character and not the effects or significance of her actions.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:30
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Georgia Peach posted:I guess this pretty much retroactively neutered the stakes for Endgame. It didn't matter how many possible futures Dr. Strange saw. I mean obviously they were going to beat Thanos because it's a movie, but now in-universe they were always going to win as well, they just didn't know it. I think that's right. Isn’t that the whole point? Loki and Sylvie were pretty angry about it.
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Jul 15, 2021 14:01
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Bleck posted:Disney is just old and white enough to still hate mixed race business in their films and as a result I am comfortable in assuming that Kang The Conqueror being Majors means that whoever they get to play Reed Richards will also be black and this pleases me. I too, care deeply about the race of actors
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Jul 15, 2021 14:06
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Representation is nice.
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Jul 15, 2021 14:13
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Terror Sweat posted:I too, care deeply about the race of actors This, but unironically.
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Jul 15, 2021 14:13
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Terror Sweat posted:I too, care deeply about the race of actors 
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Jul 15, 2021 14:41
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I like it and thought it was a great cap to the 1st season and I even enjoyed the 20 minutes of expositing because it moved Loki and Sylvie on their character arcs and gave a nice conclusion and hook for Season 2. Questions are at least answered, unlike other puzzle box shows which meander forever. I just want to also talk about a specific line towards the end When Kang(?} describes what the multiverse was like and that he won and was benevolent and both Loki's are so mad their lives were taken away and he yells GROW UP, really hit home to me how hypocritical the Loki's are/were. Assuming both were bent on ruling Asgard and Earth by any means necessary. it's a nice little reflection for them, this guy is everything they say he is. He survived, he rules the timeline, and does what he has to keep people happy. Anyways, onto to eviler Kang!
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Jul 15, 2021 15:15
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Overall thumbs up on the series, and Sophia di Martino is a good actress, but for me she’s a rare major casting misstep for the MCU — or at least directorial misstep. At almost no point did she give off any feeling or energy of being Loki in any of Hiddkeston’s portrayal of the character. Obviously a big part of the point is that they are completely different people with different goals and desires, but I think that philosophical difference between them would have worked a lot better if they felt more in-sync through the rest of the series. She simply didn’t feel like a variation on Loki so much as a completely unique character from the very beginning; Richard E Grant played the role in a way that felt very “yeah, I could see Hiddleston’s Loki aging into this” by comparison. It’s not a bad choice or portrayal so much as it’s one that didn’t work for me at all; I think spending some flashback time with her would’ve gone a long way toward establishing why she is so different (more of the showing versus telling us about her apocalyptic hopping traumas) as well as making it more clear that Loki’s infatuation is pretty one sided. Or just making her more of a direct Enchantress adaptation rather than being “a Loki”. Also I’m not just sour because I wanted Jaimie Alexander to be Lady Loki not at all.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:19
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Overall thumbs up on the series, and Alligator Loki is a good actor, but for me he's a rare major casting misstep for the MCU — or at least directorial misstep. At almost no point did he give off any feeling or energy of being Loki in any of Hiddkeston’s portrayal of the character. Obviously a big part of the point is that they are completely different species with different goals and desires, but I think that philosophical difference between them would have worked a lot better if they felt more in-sync through the rest of the series. He simply didn’t feel like a variation on Loki so much as a completely unique character from the very beginning; Richard E Grant played the role in a way that felt very “yeah, I could see Hiddleston’s Loki aging into this” by comparison. It’s not a bad choice or portrayal so much as it’s one that didn’t work for me at all; I think spending some flashback time with him would’ve gone a long way toward establishing why he is so different (more of the showing versus telling us about his being an alligator) as well as making it more clear that he is an alligator. Or just making him more of a direct King K. Rool adaptation rather than being “a Loki”.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:25
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live with fruit posted:Except it wasn't meant to cap off the show because there's going to be another season. The whole season was about Sylvie trying to bring down the TVA and she fid and now the second season will probably be about the consequences of it. Personally, it reminds me of Mr. Robot in that way. Yeah, I'm not really getting the complaints that "nothing gets resolved." It answers almost all of the questions it asked and characters either completed their journeys or reached a vital tipping point. It'd be a bad series finale, but it's a fine season finale.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:30
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Bear in mind that we don't know exactly what diversion in the timeline caused Sylvie to be born a woman. She might be genetically a completely different person who was simply where Hiddleston Loki was when Odin adopted him. Beyond that she is for all intents and purposes a different person. She only shared Loki's upbringing until age 8 and then spent her life isolated and on the run. So it's not surprising that she didn't develop Loki's snark, wit or arrogance. He spent hundreds of years being raised and groomed into royalty!
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Jul 15, 2021 15:36
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Just a quick thought on the Time Court, shown when both Lokis were first apprehended. Basically the process of registering and sentencing through a bureaucratic nightmare system. It makes sense that that is how they weed out which variants would be best for TVA employment. If they make it through the system without being pruned, it shows that they are malleable and able to take nonsensical orders. After the trial, I'm sure they are mind wiped and placed in an office somewhere by Miss Minutes.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:39
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The Grumbles posted:Or just making him more of a direct King K. Rool adaptation rather than being “a Loki”. Are Nintendo and MCU actually in the same universe? Over the next hour...
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Jul 15, 2021 15:39
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Mike the TV posted:Just a quick thought on the Time Court, shown when both Lokis were first apprehended. Basically the process of registering and sentencing through a bureaucratic nightmare system. It makes sense that that is how they weed out which variants would be best for TVA employment. If they make it through the system without being pruned, it shows that they are malleable and able to take nonsensical orders. After the trial, I'm sure they are mind wiped and placed in an office somewhere by Miss Minutes.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:39
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stev posted:Bear in mind that we don't know exactly what diversion in the timeline caused Sylvie to be born a woman. She might be genetically a completely different person who was simply where Hiddleston Loki was when Odin adopted him. Yeah her insistence, and one of the things demonstrated over and over, is she's not Loki. It's even the last thing she says to Loki.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:40
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I don't want to publicly admit this but I don't have D+ and I "watch" these MCU shows by second-hand through youtube reactors. I watch about 2-3 and I get a pretty good idea of what has happened and the story. That being said I had a question I was hoping to get verification on for my own understanding: The "sacred" timeline is sacred in that it keeps that Kang in power right? Not pruning the branches does introduce chaos, but the chaos is coming in the form of the other Kangs reintroducing the multiverse war and potentially a worse Kang becoming the He Who Remains (though technically a better Kang could also win, it's unknown). It goes back to the comment about Thanos and the snap and how it was per-determined. Pre-determined events exist because Kang is allowing them to, to protect himself.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:44
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All speculation but The TVA could be the city we see for a second in ant man 2 when he goes to the quantum realm. They say time works differently in the TVA, it also does in the quantum realm. They are able to travel though time using it in Endgame. Ant man didn't get snapped away...maybe it wasn't random chance. Maybe the gems couldn't effect Scott in the quantum realm. Ant man 3 could be about going to the quantum realm to deal with the TVA.
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