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BrianWilly posted:I feel like the situation with Gorgon and Cortez was such that the Council would've 100% just blamed Cortez for clearly, openly manipulating Gorgon into a situation where he would kill humans and stuck Cortez in the hole instead. The stakes of that moment felt a bit hackneyed. I mean, the stakes for Gorgon, not for the humans; they were in very real danger You're not wrong, but we've also only seen exactly one case of "KILL NO HUMANS" prosecuted, which was at least implied to be the only one that's happened to date. Cortez correctly made the assumption that the Council is fickle and might just go for Gorgon because why not? I think it was pretty within character for everyone involved, even if it was a bit hacknayed. I'm giving X-Corp another issue, but it's not great.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:19
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Saoshyant posted:You know who would very likely write a proper business centered X book? Joe Casey. Wildcats 3.0 was actually entertaining as opposed to whatever's going on in X-Corp. I'm not reading X-Corp in part because- as mentioned above- Warren is only good when dealing with the Archangel stuff and I had never read a book with Monet in it until HoXPoX. But the idea of superheroes-as-a-corporation really was conceptually perfected in Casey's WC run and I don't know what else you could possibly say about the idea. In part because corporations are generally bad and reading about superheroes as supercapitalists isn't a particularly appealing thing. And Casey knew that! That run very much questions motives all around, even as the societal benefit of SUPERBATTERIES is covered extensively. (There's also some of the most problematic poo poo in comics history in 3.0...) How Wonderful! posted:I mean, I guess it would be cool to have a mega internet and to be able to think "oh, this is Bishop's fault" whenever I saw a bad post, but compared to everything going on in every other book it feels like making a big hash out of small potatoes. I think this is a general issue with someone like Hickman (or Ellis or Morrison...) doing monthly books: Big Idea writers tend to do the Big Idea and that makes everything else look insignificant. They terraformed Mars and established it as the capital of the solar system! And that's AFTER they released drugs that cured all the disease! It's hard to write books in that world. Hell, they even have Cap kind of address the whole thing in SWORD with the moon landing references. There always has to be suspension of disbelief in this (why doesn't Reed just cure all the cancers?), but it's harder when you have the equivalent of that as a plot point.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:26
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Does Casey even write comics? I thought he was busy in Man of Action making, according to some, Ben 10 worse with each iteration.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:32
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Dawgstar posted:Does Casey even write comics? I thought he was busy in Man of Action making, according to some, Ben 10 worse with each iteration. He was still doing SEX as a series of GNs at Image as of a year or so ago. There was also that book where he did America Chavez but Not America Chavez. The Internet tells me that came out last year. But yeah, he's got Ben 10 money so...
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Jul 15, 2021 13:48
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danbanana posted:But the idea of superheroes-as-a-corporation really was conceptually perfected in Casey's WC run and I don't know what else you could possibly say about the idea. In part because corporations are generally bad and reading about superheroes as supercapitalists isn't a particularly appealing thing. And Casey knew that! Yes! You do bring good points that I also have heard other people mention elsewhere: what's even the point of a corporate oriented comic in a status quo of Mars terraforming and cancer healing drugs? None. There's no point to the book. So it's got a bad creative team and a bad concept, which is an awful combination. While thinking about this, I rationalized "well if Casey should be writing X-Corp, then who should be writing Excalibur"? And then it came to me: Mike Carey. An actual British person who understands the country's politics, how British people actually talk (having Meggan say "darling" three times in a row like in yesterday's Excalibur is the exact opposite of that), and the use of magic in fiction. And he's a legit good X-Men writer with a proven record! Hire me, Marvel. I got this in the bag!
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Jul 15, 2021 13:49
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danbanana and Saoshyant I think you both raise really good points about the merits of even having a book about "well now the mutants are capitalists," which are compounded by the fact that, well, Marauders is already in part about the Hellfire Trading Company, a mutant corporation, and gets around some of the major pitfalls of X-Corp (characters doing bad things in a boring way) by having the corporate intrigue happen as a counterpoint to fun pirate adventures. It feels like a very strange redundancy. and while I suppose X-Corp and the HFC do cover slightly different conceptual ground, those differences feel slightly hazy and ambiguous, which is never good when you're world-building in such a relatively tight scope. Edit: Also this is a quibble and I might be incorrect myself, but isn't Wind Dancer currently both an X-Corp... intern?.... and CEO of the Mojoverse? It feels like crossed wires. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 15:43
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I haven't read X-Corp and maybe I read into the purpose of HFT but... isn't the point of HFT to be a mutant plan to use the human's love of capitalism as a lever to get what they want (political recognition)? I mean, Magneto loving went off on that in the Davos issue, didn't he? Krakoa is post-capitalist (or pure socialist or something) akin to Roddenberry's Star Trek, right? So it is weird to lean on the idea of corporation for a book. And again, there's a bigger issue here: while there's good arguments that all superheroes are inherently reactionary, they literally started out as being anti-establishment characters. Framing them as tools of a multinational company (or running them or direct association or whatever) isn't appealing to me and I think to most people. I don't want to read about how the 616 equivalent of Amazon has these awesome superheroes. That poo poo sucks. Casey's WC run works because of how it all is framed (and the build up which is great), but I don't see any other way to tell that story and make it interesting.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:08
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How Wonderful! posted:Also this is a quibble and I might be incorrect myself, but isn't Wind Dancer currently both an X-Corp... intern?.... and CEO of the Mojoverse? It feels like crossed wires. Yup, you aren't incorrect. As much as Leah Williams claimed how the X-line creators are super communicative with each other on what's going in each other's books, no one apparently caught that it makes very little sense for Sofia to be a full time employee in X-Corp while managing all the programming and Krakoa relationships with Mojo TV.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:18
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danbanana posted:I haven't read X-Corp and maybe I read into the purpose of HFT but... isn't the point of HFT to be a mutant plan to use the human's love of capitalism as a lever to get what they want (political recognition)? I mean, Magneto loving went off on that in the Davos issue, didn't he? Krakoa is post-capitalist (or pure socialist or something) akin to Roddenberry's Star Trek, right? So it is weird to lean on the idea of corporation for a book. This has a certain "Count of Monte Cristo" elegance to it, but it does not seem like a great hook for a superhero comic book.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:48
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Nessus posted:This has a certain "Count of Monte Cristo" elegance to it, but it does not seem like a great hook for a superhero comic book. For all my "I don't want to read a superhero comic about corporations," that issue is an all-time favorite of mine. And rereading it, Magneto's speech about turning the Krakoa drugs into money to literally BUY HUMANITY OUT still comes off as a screed against capitalism rather than some extreme version of it. It's framed entirely on how capitalism is connected to the abuse of marginalized people. He's laying out the idea that Krakoa will use this greed against them, not buy into the greed. That poo poo rules. I don't want to read a comic about its execution.
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Jul 15, 2021 17:08
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danbanana posted:For all my "I don't want to read a superhero comic about corporations," that issue is an all-time favorite of mine.
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Jul 15, 2021 17:17
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danbanana posted:For all my "I don't want to read a superhero comic about corporations," that issue is an all-time favorite of mine. “We’ll use capitalism to beat capitalism” typically just ends in state capitalism. I’m not sure Magneto is a great guy
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Jul 15, 2021 17:27
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thetoughestbean posted:“We’ll use capitalism to beat capitalism” typically just ends in state capitalism. But... they don't need capitalism. They're immortals who have a living island providing them everything they need and recently terraformed an entire planet and had a dude give birth to a space station. I'm not sure the US dollar means much to people who can do these things and I certainly don't understand their need to buy into markets other than to use it as leverage. This is their non-violent solution to the idea of imminent genocide, not a Bezos-ian desire to be rich. They also created whole-cloth a new currency for the galaxy, but explicitly only to again buy favor/recognition in people who do give a poo poo about that.
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Jul 15, 2021 17:47
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Yeah. It feels like the Davos issue and to a certain extent the HFTC in Marauders were about doing an end-run around capital on its home turf whereas X-Corp feels like suddenly they're trying to assimilate into that mentality and that ruleset for no apparent reason. Why should Wind Dancer and Trinary have to go to a dumb "women in tech meet & greet" and maneuver around people being garden variety corporate snakes. Like, why? The premise of the Krakoa era has already shown mutants transcending the rules of that particular game, why is it suddenly worth playing?
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Jul 15, 2021 17:55
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I completely agree on the failings of X-Corp, both narratively and ideologically. It’s the only book that doesn’t have *some* redeeming value. X-Force is just ok but it has Quentin dying a lot, Wolverine is pretty boilerplate but it has nostalgic appearances like Maverick, etc. Excalibur is…odd but it does have Betsy being cool and Gambit doing Gambity things. I do love Jamie and Monet but as others have said they’re being written so poorly in X-Corp that I don’t even get satisfaction from their presence. I’d much rather have kept X-Factor, or just had another, better concept for a new book, of which there have be tons given how fertile for ideas the current era is overall. It does seem like not everyone is up to the challenge of using Hixmen to its full potential. I’d keep Duggan, Williams, Spurrier, Ewing, and Ayala (COTA was mediocre but I still love New Mutants) and then get some other writers to fill the roster. Casey and Carey are good ideas. I’d like to see….David F. Walker get a shot. Ales Kot? Get weird with it.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:19
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I'm still convinced that the hinted-at Moira series was gonna be by Ellis until his poo poo came out.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:32
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I like X-Corp, my read on it is that these mutants are attempting to be capitalists and it's not working. I think it's going to continue to collapse around them, hurting their business and personal lives until they make a change. I've read most of Peter David's X-Factor and I'm interested in the direction that Jamie is going in - he's only had one big appearance and he's clearly loving things up in a very Jamie way and regretting it. Also, given that mutants are extending their powers in new ways, it makes sense that Jamie would use his to become an all knowing weirdo.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:42
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Maybe they are doing it for fun since they are post-scarcity and there's no real need to do anything but hang out on an island and do head mushrooms.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:53
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https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1415687609528078342?s=20
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Jul 15, 2021 19:22
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Get Jessica Fletcher on that case. Magneto is great, best wishes to that guy. Coincidentally I listened to two podcasts talking about the original Secret Wars, apparently Magneto is pretty funny in that. Jim Shooter folks. danbanana thanks by the way for that abridged Onslaught reading order, mentioned some pages back. You better believe I copy and pasted that, gonna save me some time (if I ever get there on my read - I totally will). I'll probably skip around a bit once I finish the classic Claremont run.
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Jul 15, 2021 21:06
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Heavy Metal posted:Get Jessica Fletcher on that case. Magneto is great, best wishes to that guy. Coincidentally I listened to two podcasts talking about the original Secret Wars, apparently Magneto is pretty funny in that. Jim Shooter folks. Magneto is kind of entertainingly odd in Secret Wars. He's super horny for the Wasp who returns his advances so if you ever wanted a Magneto/Janet pairing, there you go.
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Jul 15, 2021 23:08
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...It was Mystique as Magneto, wasn't it? And this is her trying to expose Krakoa's hypocrisy as part of her tearing the whole thing down.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:16
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I feel like any mystery for a whodunnit would be solved in like 10 minutes by psychometry alone.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:21
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it's like el-melloi II. when people can use magic there's not much point in trying to figure out how a crime is committed, because the answer is obviously magic. this in turn obfuscates the who, because again, magic. heck, since this is about wanda it might even be magic in this case instead of the infinite variety of mutant powers and fantastic technology available.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:31
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Yeah, I assume Magneto will be "But I didn't do it, I have no memory of doing it and no motive" which immediately falls apart when "But you could've been being mind controlled, or wiped your own memory" is a valid thing that could happen.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:33
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So straight away Rachel is going to get knocked the gently caress out, because her ability alone makes this an open and shut case.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:36
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Gaz-L posted:Yeah, I assume Magneto will be "But I didn't do it, I have no memory of doing it and no motive" which immediately falls apart when "But you could've been being mind controlled, or wiped your own memory" is a valid thing that could happen. There's also the possibility Magneto is killed shortly after and the backup is from before Wanda was murdered. Like obviously in this case Magneto either didn't do it, or was mind controlled, but it raises the question of how responsible you are for actions you did after your memory stops if they were of your own free will. Like if Sabretooth was killed shortly after he killed all those humans and resurrected with no memory of it, would he still be in the hole?
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Jul 16, 2021 01:38
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Skwirl posted:it raises the question of how responsible you are for actions you did after your memory stops if they were of your own free will. Like if Sabretooth was killed shortly after he killed all those humans and resurrected with no memory of it, would he still be in the hole? Worked for Aurora in X-Factor.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:41
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Gologle posted:So straight away Rachel is going to get knocked the gently caress out, because her ability alone makes this an open and shut case. Well, there are probably enough mutants around that if someone wanted to kill Wanda and planned for it, they would know the people likely to investigate and try to cover their tracks. Like if Mystique got Exodus, his powers are vague and powerful enough to mess with Rachel's visions.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:58
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Williams has generally done a pretty ok job figuring out how to tell procedural mysteries within the very weird context of Krakoa (with the exception of the last issue of X-Factor which mostly just tried to cram in way too much stuff for 22 pages) so I'm confident that whatever goes down in The Trial of Magneto will be fun to read.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:58
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Dawgstar posted:Magneto is kind of entertainingly odd in Secret Wars. He's super horny for the Wasp who returns his advances so if you ever wanted a Magneto/Janet pairing, there you go. Man she deserves better than that loser. She's had a rough time of it in the past.....50 years.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:09
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I genuinely liked Jan and Alex together in Uncanny Avengers.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:36
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That run got weird in the end. I think Thor threw someone into the sun, and then rewound time?
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Jul 16, 2021 03:50
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Skwirl posted:Like if Sabretooth was killed shortly after he killed all those humans and resurrected with no memory of it, would he still be in the hole? Always a fun question. Was handled really well in Savage Dragon on Trial.  I'd say you're responsible for stuff you don't remember, at least legally. But this brings up another great trope, somebody evil getting amnesia and starting a new life as a good person. Which is also handled really well in Savage Dragon. Following the Emperor Kurr arc. So if you turn a new leaf and are a new person, I'm rooting for you, even though there's nobody else who can do your jail time for you. Mulva posted:Man she deserves better than that loser. She's had a rough time of it in the past.....50 years. We don't all love Magneto? He seems pretty cool. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 18:53
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Is there a good place for a summary on what you're talking about re: Savage Dragon? I've never read it.
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Jul 16, 2021 19:09
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Cartridgeblowers posted:Is there a good place for a summary on what you're talking about re: Savage Dragon? I've never read it. Sure, let's see, here's some stuff. The pitch for this arc from comicvine's SD #184 page: "THE TRIAL OF SAVAGE DRAGON" When he was Emperor Kurr, Savage Dragon came close to destroying the world. Now his past deeds come back to haunt him as the Savage Dragon is brought up on charges. This is the one battle he may not win. Savage Dragon is on trial and things may never be the same! Comes with our highest possible recommendation!" In a nutshell, Dragon's secret origin which we find out about 15 to 20 years into the series is he was this Kurr guy, a space tyrant. Savage Dragon's first issue (the mini-series or first TPB) opens with Dragon in a burning field with no memory. The trial takes place in 2013, since the book is set in real time, so he's been a hero for 20 years at this point. Then in the Kurr story arc his old personality and memories return, and he tries to conquer Earth. In the end he's good ol' Dragon again, and the Kurr personality/memories are gone (a lot of stuff happens), and he goes on trial. If you'd like to dig some detailed summaries, the Savage Dragon wiki has ones for each issue. Here's the first one of the trial arc, issue 184. If you're curious about the previous Emperor Kurr arc and other stuff, those issues are on there too. And pages for Emperor Kurr and Dragon the characters, etc. Also I'll link to the summary of issue 0, that's where we first learn about the Kurr stuff and Dragon's origin. I don't think there's story arc summaries, so you'd wanna flip through some stuff if just curious about that part. https://wiki.savagedragon.com/comics/Savage_Dragon_Vol2_000/ https://wiki.savagedragon.com/comics/Savage_Dragon_Vol2_184/ https://wiki.savagedragon.com/comics/Savage_Dragon_Vol2_185/ Those are the first two issues with the Trial stuff, and his legal stuff continues for several issues along other stuff. The earlier Kurr stuff happens during the Dragon War and Emperor Kurr arcs, summed up quickly a bit in the Emperor Kurr wiki page. https://wiki.savagedragon.com/profiles/characters/Emperor_Kurr/ And I recommend those arcs, and Savage Dragon in general, to anybody interested. Incredible stuff over the years. Was especially on fire around that time. I think the books do it more justice than the summaries, but I can dig being interested in stuff I may not get around to reading etc. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 19:41
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Jesus Christ that was a bad trailer.
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Jul 17, 2021 01:18
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I literally lolled at the last picture. https://twitter.com/xmenbutgay/status/1185996380478885890?s=20 Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jul 17, 2021 |
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Jul 17, 2021 20:02
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think I've found a new high water mark in offensive comics during my random read through of the history of the x-men: Brian Michael Bendis, in his Uncanny X-Men run, created a male, racially ambiguous mutant and gave him the ability to remotely control vehicles. this was first demonstrated by stealing a variety of cars and he was given the mutant name Hijack. congratulations to BMB on creating a very offensive mutant
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Jul 19, 2021 01:06
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Cloks posted:think I've found a new high water mark in offensive comics during my random read through of the history of the x-men: Vindaloo.
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Jul 19, 2021 02:04
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