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Captain Kirk doesn’t really gently caress that often either, though he’s not really opposed to it and flirts with teenagers a few times. The sexual politics of the show are the one aspect that really hasn’t aged well, although the colorblindness approach to solving racism that pops up a few times isn’t great.
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Jul 16, 2021 00:45
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Kirk is too busy loving Spock off camera.
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Jul 16, 2021 00:46
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Captain Kirk doesn’t really gently caress that often either, though he’s not really opposed to it and flirts with teenagers a few times. The sexual politics of the show are the one aspect that really hasn’t aged well, although the colorblindness approach to solving racism that pops up a few times isn’t great. Abraham Lincoln calling Uhura the n-word and her not caring because in the future “they no longer fear words” is probably one of the top 3 most awkward moments in that show. Between that and a similar line in Arthur C Clarke’s Childhood’s End, you get the sense that white people in the time were really holding on to hope that “they will LET us use that word eventually!”
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Jul 16, 2021 00:51
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There's also the often celebrated kiss between Kirk and Uhura, but the circumstances around it are completely hosed up. It's nonconsensual as they're both being forced into it by the aliens who used to be the Greek gods, and like 10 seconds later Kirk is literally cracking a whip at Uhura. That said TOS is probably still my favorite overall Trek series because it was the first one I saw and it's an insane blend of psychedelic set design being used to promote color TV, extremely dated progressivism that nonetheless was a huge step forward for primetime 60s television, and plots that range from utter nonsense to episodes penned by big name authors like Harlan Ellison and Joseph Haldeman. Deep Space Nine is my second favorite and probably the best Trek series, but in part that is because it can build on TOS and especially TNG. The static location, centered on a point of galactic conflict, lets it take all the high-minded speeches of TOS and TNG and see how the Federation actually interacts with other civilizations and continuing problems over the span of several years versus the Enterprise zooming off to the next opportunity for pontification every week. And while every Trek has its silly episodes, DS9 was also much more willing to embrace the campiness of TOS. It brought back the mirror universe so everyone can play horny sociopathic versions of their characters, had time travel to 20th and 21st century earth, even had an episode set during a classic TOS episode for the 30th anniversary. Plus you get amazing scenes like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk
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Jul 16, 2021 01:24
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Eh the idea was the the word and it’s history was so far in the past they don’t even recognize it. Which tracks with the yptopian nature of early trek
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Jul 16, 2021 01:24
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Re: Garak and Bashir. I always saw it as they were a gay couple. And all the behind the scenes stuff about the studio, or whoever, fighting tooth and nail against them being a couple was very much like Xena and Gabrielle. Insomuch as to the actors, the writers, the audience, and to all intents and purposes they were gay, but because they stopped JUST short of them looking into camera and saying "we are a loving homosexual couple" before tongue kissing, the homophobes/prudes/conservative bean counters at the studio could realistically claim that they weren't gay, just good friends.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:48
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So.....Ziyal and Ezri were beards? Makes sense. Actually holy poo poo that makes the Ziyal Garak relationship better. Garak is doing it a. For cover and b. To really stick it to his archenemy Dukat. Ziyal clearly has love for Kira so she's bearding and also as a subconscious F you to her deadbeat Dad
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Jul 16, 2021 02:05
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Unkempt posted:Watch TOS. There's a reason why people are still making Trek 50 years later, and it's because TOS was good. Fry misremembered. The three words are actually "Let me help." City on the Edge of Forever posted:EDITH: And you don't want to talk about it? Why? Did you do something wrong? Are you afraid of something? Whatever it is, let me help.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:14
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AceOfFlames posted:Abraham Lincoln calling Uhura the n-word and her not caring because in the future “they no longer fear words” is probably one of the top 3 most awkward moments in that show. The word used for Uhura in that scene was not the N-word, but the female version of the polite word of the time. It is considered offensive now, but this was not the case in the 60s. MLK used the male variant in his "Dream" speech to refer to himself.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:17
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Biggest problem with TOS is that people who haven't watched it in years/at all have Very Strong Opinions on things they think they remember about it. At the mild end of that, you have people who think Kirk was shagging his way across the galaxy. At the worst end, you have the people complaining that original Trek never had all this woke stuff in it. Yeah.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:27
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Riker is the real Trek horndog. 
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Jul 16, 2021 02:39
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Sunswipe posted:Biggest problem with TOS is that people who haven't watched it in years/at all have Very Strong Opinions on things they think they remember about it. At the mild end of that, you have people who think Kirk was shagging his way across the galaxy. At the worst end, you have the people complaining that original Trek never had all this woke stuff in it. That episode is another dumb colorblind thing where everybody criticizes the guy from the oppressed culture for hating his oppressor and explains that his hatred makes him just as bad as the people who enslaved and genocided his people.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:44
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Unkempt posted:Watch TOS. There's a reason why people are still making Trek 50 years later, and it's because TOS was good. I find it ironic that the Second Doctor is telling me this.
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Jul 16, 2021 03:01
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I didn't see many mirror universe episodes as I only watched TNG all the way through, but I looked it up and it seemed more interesting than I gave it credit for. I always just assumed it was "Evil bearded universe" because of the stereotype, but there's more to it than that - it's a for want of a nail situation. It all comes down to first contact. In OUR universe, first contact with a vulcan ship went reasonably well and an alliance was formed and they helped us get to space. In the mirror universe the original enterprise panicked and blew the vulcan ship out of the sky, triggering a war. A war that earth somehow won, probably because we are bigger bastards than the Vulcans, so Vulcan fell to Earth, got totally subjugated and that started us down a more warlike mindset. Then we kind of expanded our empire, it started bumping up against Klingon space and things got... complicated.
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Jul 16, 2021 03:37
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Captain Kirk doesn’t really gently caress that often either, though he’s not really opposed to it and flirts with teenagers a few times. kirk's interesting because he's definitely 1960s-coded as someone who fucks and pretty much all of the older generation of fans understood it implicitly even tho the material superficially doesn't support it, at least overtly, but nowadays a lot of that coding will go over people's heads because the world has changed enough in these 50+ years to render the subtext both insensible and, frankly, unnecessary... meaning if you just take the material literally w/o considering the prevailing cultural context that TOS was produced in, as many would nowadays, kirk in his original form is pretty darn tame going forward, i can see how it would be a challenge to modernize the character for contemporary adaptations, do you stick to a literal interpretation of the TOS material or do you make its subtext, well, just plain text in your new adaptation interesting stuff to think about since it ties into/relates to the current discussion of how other shows would have to code lgb characters to make them prime-time tv friendly
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Jul 16, 2021 04:21
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https://twitter.com/joesondow/status/1415661391348781057?s=21
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Jul 16, 2021 06:24
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What's the "he who fucks" subtext? I've never watched star trek lol
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Jul 16, 2021 07:32
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"This can be a little complicated" "Oh, like the time you accidentally fell in love with an idealised AI version of a scientist, only for things to get SUPER awkward when the real scientist went to the holodeck and found the program?" "Uhhh... ask Riker..." I kind of liked though that the scientist kind of got it by the end. Like, she wasn't happy about it, but she understood how it had happened and that it wasn't a deliberate wank fantasy.
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Jul 16, 2021 07:34
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BioEnchanted posted:"This can be a little complicated" "Oh, like the time you accidentally fell in love with an idealised AI version of a scientist, only for things to get SUPER awkward when the real scientist went to the holodeck and found the program?" "Uhhh... ask Riker..." Hey, I gotta grant at least Geordi waving off trying to teach appropriate romantic/sexual behavior to someone as showing some self awareness. At least he had the courtesy not to mess the poor android up too.
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Jul 16, 2021 07:39
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Gnoman posted:The word used for Uhura in that scene was not the N-word, but the female version of the polite word of the time. Yeah, I was considering even calling it "the OTHER n-word" or the "polite n-word" but I am not an American so I was not 100% sure how to approach the subject. It's still awkward. Sunswipe posted:
You can tell that ep was well intentioned but it also fell hard into "both sides are bad". Hell of an effective ending though. AceOfFlames has a new favorite as of 10:04 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 10:01
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DS9 probably has a much better take on racism and colonial and imperial themes and harms with the whole Cardassian dealio. Think of most of Gul Dukat's big rants about Bajorans, and then realise how many of those are right at Sisko.
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Jul 16, 2021 10:14
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"British comedy has not aged well" should not really be news to anybody, but jesus christ Harry Enfield was a vile little poo poo without the slightest redeeming feature, wasn't he https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i4rgxOi73c
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Jul 16, 2021 10:16
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Whybird posted:"British comedy has not aged well" should not really be news to anybody, but jesus christ Harry Enfield was a vile little poo poo without the slightest redeeming feature, wasn't he So much of their comedy is punching up. For a nation that brought the world Monty Python so few UK comedians really understood the fundamentals of great comedy instead choosing to slag off "different" people and wear drag close to scream in high pitched voices. The way the BBC works to produce shows doesn't help, as there's very little money involved so its all at the whims of whatever old exec decides is the new hot thing.
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Jul 16, 2021 10:37
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Tory Boy was pretty good.
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Jul 16, 2021 10:40
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Whybird posted:"British comedy has not aged well" should not really be news to anybody, but jesus christ Harry Enfield was a vile little poo poo without the slightest redeeming feature, wasn't he I watched this and kept waiting for any sort of punchline or attempt at humour, but there just... weren't any. Just three minutes of "wow I sure hate women". 
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Jul 16, 2021 10:47
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Perestroika posted:I watched this and kept waiting for any sort of punchline or attempt at humour, but there just... weren't any. Just three minutes of "wow I sure hate women". As a very weak defence, the type of person he’s parodying there very much exists. (I’ve known several) I’d like to think he’s specifically mocking a particular class of rich white woman, but tbh the whole thing does just come off as misogynistic outside of greater context. Also I’m not going to die on the hill of Harry ‘loving’ Enfield.
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Jul 16, 2021 10:54
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Of course your humor doesn’t age well when its basis is “man wears dress.”
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Jul 16, 2021 11:39
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Harry Enfield hasn't been funny for 30 years. I don't know why anyone is suddenly finding this surprising.
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Jul 16, 2021 12:03
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Little Britain is similar in that I remember hearing it was amazing and the best British sketch show in ages but when I finally watched it it was all jokes about poor people and disabled people and immigrants. Honestly it was one of the most mean-spirited, bullying, conservative comedies i've seen and the amount of goodwill they get is baffling.
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Jul 16, 2021 12:11
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Segue posted:Little Britain is similar in that I remember hearing it was amazing and the best British sketch show in ages but when I finally watched it it was all jokes about poor people and disabled people and immigrants. Little Britain wasn't just all jokes about poor people and disabled people and immigrants, it was the exact same joke about poor people and disabled people and immigrants every single week and the punchline was usually simply that these people exist. One of the most horrible TV shows I've seen and I hesitate to even say it's poorly aged because even as a 13 year old with no particular great understanding of the world seeing it when it first aired, I thought it was mean spirited.
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Jul 16, 2021 12:19
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Little Britain wasn't just all jokes about poor people and disabled people and immigrants, it was the exact same joke about poor people and disabled people and immigrants every single week and the punchline was usually simply that these people exist. One of the most horrible TV shows I've seen and I hesitate to even say it's poorly aged because even as a 13 year old with no particular great understanding of the world seeing it when it first aired, I thought it was mean spirited. I was given a DVD of the first season as a gift once, and only made it part-way through the first episode. It had the feel of watching a sketch comedy show that's long since degenerated to a series of repeated catchphrases where any actual wit or creativity has long since vanished - except, as I said, it was just the first episode. I suppose it takes an odd sort of skill to make a viewer sick of a running gag in its very first appearance.
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Jul 16, 2021 12:30
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I didn't watch Little Britain when it originally aired, but about a decade ago I dated a girl who really loved it so we watched the first season together. She was not pleased when I said I hated it I do like the video for I'm With Stupid where Walliams and Lucas are holding the Pet Shop Boys captive and perform the song to them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HEhDbp5-Hg
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Jul 16, 2021 12:43
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Little Britain had one or two great ideas, but they were lost in a sea of terrible filler. I think the main problem was that it often failed to see how their best sketches were based on bizarre character traits being the punchline, rather than the character existing in the first place. Lou and Andy would be a good example. There's a great joke hiding in the idea of one being manipulative to the point of very obviously faking immobility, and the other being an enabler who lets it go on. The joke isn't on disabled people existing, it's that someone would be so opportunistic to fake a disability. Like parking-in-the-handicapped-spot taken to its extreme. Likewise, the computer-says-no lady and medieval hotel guy are pretty funny because it's not punching down - it's about bizarre characters who are clearly unfit for their job but force you to interact with them any way. But they get lost in a sea of lazy stereotypes and ultimately it all goes down the drain of telling the same joke over and over again. It feels like a show that peaks at sloppy first draft. In a just world, something like That Mitchell And Webb Look would have been international success story.
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Jul 16, 2021 13:16
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Sobatchja Morda posted:Lou and Andy would be a good example. There's a great joke hiding in the idea of one being manipulative to the point of very obviously faking immobility, and the other being an enabler who lets it go on. The joke isn't on disabled people existing, it's that someone would be so opportunistic to fake a disability. Like parking-in-the-handicapped-spot taken to its extreme.
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Jul 16, 2021 14:47
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Martman posted:stuff like the Only Gay in the Village guy (which is basically "I don't hate the gays, I just wish they weren't so loud and annoying about it" in sketch form). Not to mention a bunch of those sketches also had that guy actively rejecting or pushing away other gay people just so he could continue victimizing himself and bemoaning his status as The Only Gay In The Village, which plows straight into the even worse stereotype of “Minority groups only want attention to feed their victim complex” AceOfFlames has a new favorite as of 14:55 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 14:50
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They also have a ‘laughing at trans women’ thing, there’s barely anything of value in that show these days.
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Jul 16, 2021 14:56
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I don't care much for Little Britain, but I'm fairly sure that Matt loving Lucas isn't telling gays to stay in the closet and be invisible
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Jul 16, 2021 14:58
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Torquemada posted:They also have a ‘laughing at trans women’ thing, there’s barely anything of value in that show these days. This describes all media made before like 2013 though.
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Jul 16, 2021 15:03
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I watched this 90s documentary about child actors from the earliest stars to the modern day and there are a whole bunch of movies I can't see the same way again. There are a lot of  stories but two that come to my mind was how Jackie Cooper often had trouble crying on cue, which was a problem because he was known as "The Crying Kid" and directors were expected to have him cry in at least a couple scenes per movie to bring the audiences in. One time the director had the security guard take Cooper's (age less than 10) dog behind a building and pretend to shoot it, then they shot the scene with him crying about his dead dog. For another extremely young star who wouldn't cry, they took her aside and told her that the family depends on her and would become homeless if she didn't do it.Another is child actor Bill Mumy who was fidgeting during filming of Alfred Hitchcock Presents. He says a sweaty, heavy-breathing Hitchcock walked up to him and whispered in his ear, "I am going to get a nail and nail your feet to the mark, and the blood will come pouring out like milk". There are some heartbreaking scenes where they gather a bunch of former child actors to discuss their experiences and its like a trauma support group, many of them cry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5U8s9eiLYU Kevin DuBrow has a new favorite as of 15:14 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 15:08
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bitterandtwisted posted:I don't care much for Little Britain, but I'm fairly sure that Matt loving Lucas isn't telling gays to stay in the closet and be invisible Really? Because his sketch show certainly gives that impression.
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Jul 16, 2021 15:11
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