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Manager Hoyden posted:I don't think pre-agrarian humans were the peaceful nature children you're imagining What is this based on? If neither of you cite all that much, but the person you quote has more sources I'll go with them.
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Jul 18, 2021 18:39
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The reason the history of human war and hierarchy is just a blip on our record is because our "record" is a blip on our existence.
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Jul 18, 2021 18:39
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Josef bugman posted:What is this based on? If neither of you cite all that much, but the person you quote has more sources I'll go with them. Are you asking for primary sources from thousands of years before the first written word
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Jul 18, 2021 18:49
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Manager Hoyden posted:Are you asking for primary sources from thousands of years before the first written word Not really? Archeological information exists as an important way of judging past societies. If you don't want then what is your view based on? I'd like to find out more tbh. I don't think that it was "better" to live in a time when people with disabilities would have defo died. However I also do not think that we can ever boil something down to just it's "human nature". Josef bugman has a new favorite as of 19:30 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 18:57
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Jokerpilled Drudge posted:The record of human war and hierarchy is just a blip on our record as a species, an anomaly really. War is often driven by population density and its connection to resources. So yeah as we became more populous due to agriculture we increased our ability to wage war along with our "need" for it. That doesn't mean that early humans lived in some sort of idealized commune that was inherently peaceful. Nature is full of conflict and we have found evidence of people dying violent deaths since before humans were humans. https://observer.com/2016/01/the-earliest-evidence-of-violent-human-conflict-has-been-discovered/ https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201102-did-neanderthals-go-to-war-with-our-ancestors Atticus_1354 has a new favorite as of 19:05 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 19:01
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Clicked a BBC link and was disappointed where it took me
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Jul 18, 2021 19:28
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Manager Hoyden posted:I don't think pre-agrarian humans were the peaceful nature children you're imagining Multi family units that fished, ate berries, and chased down Ibex on foot weren't gonna be waging war upon each other. I'm sure there were brawls over territory and the better hunting grounds, but I guarantee "violently killed by other humans" was a very low cause of death in that era. Once people settled and could stockpile resources, now you have something to truly fight over.
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Jul 18, 2021 19:29
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Multi family units that fished, ate berries, and chased down Ibex on foot weren't gonna be waging war upon each other. I'm sure there were brawls over territory and the better hunting grounds, but I guarantee "violently killed by other humans" was a very low cause of death in that era. I think maybe everyone is romanticising prehistoric times. I'm pretty sure things were very violent but it would be nice if I were wrong.
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Jul 18, 2021 19:46
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Even relatively modern nomadic and hunter gatherer societies came into conflict with eachother. Over things like hunting grounds and the like. Calling it more or less violent would require so much imposed definition on what that even means that it's most likely impossible to prove either way
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Jul 18, 2021 19:55
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Josef bugman posted:The problem is that everything does not reward compassion, and viciousness is too frequently mistaken for "depth". Having compassion is it's own reward
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Jul 18, 2021 19:56
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Manager Hoyden posted:I think maybe everyone is romanticising prehistoric times. I'm pretty sure things were very violent but it would be nice if I were wrong. It's the same romanticising that is done with indigenous peoples. There's a reason those groups push back against these false narratives and want to be seen and understood in an honest way.
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Jul 18, 2021 20:06
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PHUO: The human race has a lot of improving to do but this is literally the best it has ever been at a global level. We are moving in the right direction despite what doomer social media addicts have to say on the subject As a matter of fact that can't be an unpopular opinion because it is an unpopular fact
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Jul 18, 2021 20:20
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"Seeing climate death oncoming and stomping on the gas" isn't the right direction.
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Jul 18, 2021 20:26
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Gaius Marius posted:Having compassion is it's own reward It might be the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean you should want or expect praise/recognition for it. Manager Hoyden posted:PHUO: The human race has a lot of improving to do but this is literally the best it has ever been at a global level. We are moving in the right direction despite what doomer social media addicts have to say on the subject 2 years ago the trees where I live stripped themselves of their bark because they were cooking to death. The Amazon is being burned down to create more beef. I understand the desire to be optimistic. I simply resent the idea that we should accept the idea of "Capital P Progress" as a thing. Things change.
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Jul 18, 2021 20:40
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Josef bugman posted:2 years ago the trees where I live stripped themselves of their bark because they were cooking to death. The Amazon is being burned down to create more beef. I mean yeah someone burned some trees but the fact is you and most everyone you know is safe, full, and will die of either old age or a lifestyle disease. Global poverty has plummeted sharply. Global violence is the lowest it's ever been. And on the environment, things are getting better. Not quick enough maybe but we're like fifty years from even starting down that path. Smog has almost completely been eliminated in the west. The hole in the ozone is kinda sorta fixed. Some places have negative deforestation rates. And as a society, it's worth noting that we are even paying attention to the problem at all. Wheels are moving. It's childish how people are addicted to their dispair because not everything on earth is made perfect immediately. I almost think that if everything were suddenly magicked into a perfect eden, you'd still have doomer twitter rats emotionally self-harming about something.
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Jul 18, 2021 20:59
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Manager Hoyden posted:And on the environment, things are getting better. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pacific-northwest-heat-wave-killed-more-than-1-billion-sea-creatures/ quote:More than 1 billion sea creatures along the Vancouver coast were cooked to death during a record-breaking heat wave in the Pacific Northwest, according to preliminary data.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:06
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Manager Hoyden posted:I mean yeah someone burned some trees but the fact is you and most everyone you know is safe, full, and will die of either old age or a lifestyle disease. Global poverty has plummeted sharply. Global violence is the lowest it's ever been. "Everyone you know" is doing a lot of work there. Easy to say when you're not one of the people in danger of having your home flooded long before things go far enough in the right direction tbh. Now, doomposting yourself into a mental illness spiral is obviously bad, and not helpful to you helping anyone.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:13
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Manager Hoyden posted:It's childish how people are addicted to their dispair because not everything on earth is made perfect immediately. I almost think that if everything were suddenly magicked into a perfect eden, you'd still have doomer twitter rats emotionally self-harming about something. I don't think it is childish to hope. I do think it is bad to say "things are improving" when things demonstrably are not improving for large numbers of people.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:33
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Manager Hoyden posted:I mean yeah someone burned some trees but the fact is you and most everyone you know is safe, full, and will die of either old age or a lifestyle disease. Global poverty has plummeted sharply. Global violence is the lowest it's ever been. You're not wrong about the twitter rats, reading /r/collapse since 2008 is a trip-and-a-half I'll tell you what... and we can play the selective "x is better" and "y is worse" game for the rest of our lives but in aggregate man... things are getting a hell of a lot worse environmentally. I could cite how every year on-average has been getting insanely warm both for me locally and for the wider world, or how we've been seeing increasing resource shortages for products that have been driving average prices up, but do you know how I really know? Because the people with actual money to burn and skin in the economy are doing poo poo like buying up massive swaths of housing in areas that are less likely to be immediately affected by average warming, and have been doing so for a while. It's inference, but if a nobody like me can extrapolate the connection of "climate is getting super-rough, buy up property so you can be a neo-feudal king renting to all the migrants" then the sociopaths who aren't bothered by exploitation absolutely have already. You can pretend that's some  poo poo but it's really, really not. We're not 50 years from starting down that path either. It's here. It's now. It's early days but in the last few years the pendulum has shifted to the point where even major right-wing mainstream news outlets like Bloomberg, the WSJ, and Newsweek are treating climate change as indisputable fact that needs to be acknowledged to do business, and the momentum of climate change can't be shifted just because the ozone is fixed and smog is down. Yeah we're very full and safe now, but if the trends of warmer and warmer years keeps continuing-- and there's every indication it will-- we're gonna see some harsh realities along the supply chain, even if they take a decade or so to really feel. Call that doomer/"dispair" all you want, but it's just reading the ground. I would be elated to be 100% wrong about every piece of this.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:34
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Manager Hoyden posted:I mean yeah someone burned some trees but the fact is you and most everyone you know is safe, full, and will die of either old age or a lifestyle disease. Global poverty has plummeted sharply. Global violence is the lowest it's ever been. Sure. If you ignore the massive flooding that killed people, or the heatwave that killed people, or the freeze that killed people, or the crop failures that are killing people then everything is good because you don't know them. Sure somethings are getting better, but a lot of things are also getting worse.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:52
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fizzymercury posted:Foot fetishists are weird because they can look at the equivalent of naked people all day thanks to sandals and sexy shoes. You're playing right into their toes when you wear flip-flops with a nice pedicure. I know because a creep told me about it on the bus. For half a block. This post actually made me sort of empathize with foot fetishists at least as far as acknowledging the “attractiveness” of feet is a consideration even for people like myself who aren’t necessarily fetish-level into it. If there’s a part of the human body that’d be considered on a scale from attractive to ugly, which is acknowledged by people “dressing up” their feet, why wouldn’t there be people who consider them a prominent sexual attribute? Like even with ears and wrists and poo poo? Now I’m not gonna bother someone about a fetish on the bus, no matter how conventional it might be, but that was an interesting thought.
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Jul 18, 2021 22:46
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Manager Hoyden posted:PHUO: The human race has a lot of improving to do but this is literally the best it has ever been at a global level. We are moving in the right direction despite what doomer social media addicts have to say on the subject Most of us are cool and probably more tolerant and understanding but its pretty widely understood we have around 3 decades (roughly from when Batman Returns came out to now, for scale) left as a species, so while I believe in making the best of it, we aren't moving anywhere significant.
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Jul 18, 2021 22:56
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I’ve said it elsewhere but the constant doomscrolling and doom posting a lot of people do is the emotional version of cutting. It has the same effects on brain chemistry and is also addictive for the same reasons. There’s tons of posters here and elsewhere that are basically hooked on mental self-harm. Boy I’ve eaten a probe or two for pointing this out in the wrong places.
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Jul 18, 2021 22:56
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Disco Pope posted:its pretty widely understood we have around 3 decades ... left as a species You'll find plenty of depressed people on twitter saying that, but no legitimate source that knows what they're talking about would agree this is "widely understood". Will things be worse in 30 years than now? Yeah, most likely. But it's ridiculous to suggest there won't be any humans left in 30 years and this is exactly the type of doom and gloom stuff people have been talking about here that is harmful.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:04
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Disco Pope posted:Most of us are cool and probably more tolerant and understanding but its pretty widely understood we have around 3 decades (roughly from when Batman Returns came out to now, for scale) left as a species, so while I believe in making the best of it, we aren't moving anywhere significant. That is completely and totally false But it's a perfect internet mind worm because it cleverly shifts the burden of proof to someone correctly pointing out that it isn't true despite it being impossible to disprove
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Jul 18, 2021 23:08
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I assume they are referring to that thing from a couple years ago saying we have 30 years to reverse climate change, but that's not even close to the same thing as having "30 years left as a species".Josef bugman posted:I assume, though possibly not accurately, that we have 30 years left "as a species" to reverse the damage we are doing. If we don't then, well, we're going to see things that make the current upheaval look like a drop in the ocean. yes, but that's not what their implication was. If we don't reverse it in 30 years, then yeah people will start dying off in large numbers, but "the species" will still survive for quite a long time.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:09
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yeah I eat rear end posted:You'll find plenty of depressed people on twitter saying that, but no legitimate source that knows what they're talking about would agree this is "widely understood". Will things be worse in 30 years than now? Yeah, most likely. But it's ridiculous to suggest there won't be any humans left in 30 years and this is exactly the type of doom and gloom stuff people have been talking about here that is harmful. I assume, though possibly not accurately, that we have 30 years left "as a species" to reverse the damage we are doing. If we don't then, well, we're going to see things that make the current upheaval look like a drop in the ocean.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:09
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yeah I eat rear end posted:You'll find plenty of depressed people on twitter saying that, but no legitimate source that knows what they're talking about would agree this is "widely understood". Will things be worse in 30 years than now? Yeah, most likely. But it's ridiculous to suggest there won't be any humans left in 30 years and this is exactly the type of doom and gloom stuff people have been talking about here that is harmful. I certainly don't want to harm anyone, I've been depressed before and still have to be wary of circling that drain, but hey, if there's better news (even if it is marginally better) out there than the stuff I've been feeding myself, I'm genuinely glad to hear it. EDIT: I've seen a lot recently about wet bulb temperatures rising to a level that humans won't be able to survive (on top of crop failures, extreme weather and attendant wars) but this is something I'd be VERY happy to be wrong about before I cancel my pension plan. Disco Pope has a new favorite as of 23:13 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 23:10
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50 years ago they said humans only had 30 years left
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Jul 18, 2021 23:11
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I've said it before in this thread, but social media is this generation's leaded gasoline I hope western nations have a solid mental healthcare system in the coming decades because we have at least two lost generations with heavy social media exposure
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Jul 18, 2021 23:16
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Related: I think we'd be better off if some things weren't allowed to progress beyond a certain point with technology. I think we'd be better off overall without widely available high-speed internet and smartphones, for example.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:20
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Manager Hoyden posted:I've said it before in this thread, but social media is this generation's leaded gasoline I agree with you that doomscrolling and doomposting are enormously unhealthy. However I do hate that online everyone thinks everyone else must be brainpoisoned. Even in rich nations, I got to live through things like the recent Texas freeze and the Nice truck attack. Some of us have legit concerns that trouble us, stemming from things besides doomscrolling.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:29
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oldpainless posted:50 years ago they said humans only had 30 years left The thing about apocalyptic predictions is that sometimes they are right and your town does end up covered in volcanic rock. Manager Hoyden posted:I've said it before in this thread, but social media is this generation's leaded gasoline You also seem to believe that we are going to be "fine" because of [???] so perhaps calling at other peoples mental health is not a path to be walking down. yeah I eat rear end posted:I think we'd be better off overall without widely available high-speed internet and smartphones, for example. Just for "sensible people" then? Edgar Allen Ho posted:However I do hate that online everyone thinks everyone else must be brainpoisoned. Even in rich nations, I got to live through things like the recent Texas freeze and the Nice truck attack. Some of us have legit concerns that trouble us, stemming from things besides doomscrolling. Yarp. Just going "it's all in your head! Your being ridiculous" feels like people wanting to pretend things are fine for themselves to continue on as they are.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:36
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ishikabibble posted:the issue isn't 'accepting'. the issue is large swathes of the american internet at large taking near every opportunity to make snarky comments about the US while having borderline zero knowledge of any of what they're talking about. Ok but even in my hellhole of a country (the uk, which is currently competing with the US for the "dumbest poo poo" award in every category), I was able to phone up the local health board, get an emergency dental appointment the same day, and had any costs waivered due to me being a poor gently caress. But even if I had had to pay it would have been about 20£ and that would cover pretty much everything aside from intense several-hours dental work. https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/dentists/dental-costs/how-much-will-i-pay-for-nhs-dental-treatment/ None of this is to say that it couldn't be better. I'm having to fill out pages and pages of forms just to get disability and it's pretty normal for people applying for disability to get it denied and have to go through a tribunal where the judge goes "  just give her the drat money".But all of this is leagues ahead of the US. alexandriao has a new favorite as of 23:40 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 23:38
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Josef bugman posted:Just for "sensible people" then? Only for purposes where it is strictly necessary. I would say no private citizen needs high speed internet or a smartphone. It's only viewed as necessary now because so many other people have it so not having it would be a detriment, but if nobody had it we'd be fine. They are sold to us because it makes companies a lot of money, but it was done before any real assessment on the harm they can do was done. If medicine is heavily regulated and tested before being released to the public, so should technology.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:42
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I think there is a problem where american exceptionalism leaks into how americans talk about how lovely the country is, but the thing is, that is comorbid with people who absolutely do not accept the fact that even when other countries are doing "kinda poo poo", like trans people being sterilised or disabled people literally dying because the assessor said they were fit to work, the US is abominably worse. Like even with the bullshit im facing trying to get an independent accomodation while living in an abusive environment, and trying to get hormones and my mental health poo poo sorted out, I still cannot imagine getting stabbed and going "oh, i can't afford to pay for an ambulance or treatment, no option other than to risk sepsis like it's the loving middle ages" Earlier this year the Welsh police force sent forty officers to beat a black man to death, and there have been several other black people killed since then, and even on that same metric the US is doing far, far worse. The vaccination rollout has been (possibly criminally) mismanaged but there aren't queues that go on for miles. alexandriao has a new favorite as of 23:48 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 23:43
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I agree with you that doomscrolling and doomposting are enormously unhealthy. Yeah of course bad things happen. No one is claiming bad things don't happen or aren't going to happen. But friends, there are people literally believing apocalypse prophecies with no evidence, and then turning around and demanding evidence that the world isn't actually going to end. There is something wrong there and yeah I think it is internet brain poisoning. To get into the state of mind that some nobody stranger can type into his/her phone that the world is going to end and you not only believe it but let that shape your worldview... I mean something has got to give.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:46
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yeah I eat rear end posted:Only for purposes where it is strictly necessary. I would say no private citizen needs high speed internet or a smartphone. It's only viewed as necessary now because so many other people have it so not having it would be a detriment, but if nobody had it we'd be fine. People who cannot leave the house, people who make a living making art or working over the internet would disagree. A fair number of my friends would either be working lovely jobs or being forced to do some other lovely "make work" if they didn't have the internet to sell things on. To say "well no-one needs it" can apply to anything including the internal combustion engine, stirrups and a second kidney. If your arguing that technology shouldn't be ubiquitous or that we should have tried to make sure the resources could be made into providing a tablet that lasted for 25+ years and didn't have a decaying battery on purpose I would agree with you, but come off it. Manager Hoyden posted:But friends, there are people literally believing apocalypse prophecies with no evidence, and then turning around and demanding evidence that the world isn't actually going to end. There is something wrong there and yeah I think it is internet brain poisoning. To get into the state of mind that some nobody stranger can type into his/her phone that the world is going to end and you not only believe it but let that shape your worldview... I mean something has got to give. Your looking at the shrinking ice caps and going "it'll be fine, we fixed the Ozone layer!"? I don't think pessimism is necessarily the answer, but neither is telling people to "cheer up" when we can see with our eyes that things aren't exactly going well. Josef bugman has a new favorite as of 23:51 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 23:49
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Josef bugman posted:People who cannot leave the house, people who make a living making art or working over the internet would disagree. Why is high speed internet (which I specifically mentioned) be necessary for that? Why could they not run their business over dialup? But yes, I do agree that if we're going to make technology ubiquitous, it should be required to be quality stuff that doesn't fail in 2-3 years. Same with furniture, appliances etc.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:51
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Manager Hoyden posted:Yeah of course bad things happen. No one is claiming bad things don't happen or aren't going to happen. There's seems to be an assumption here that people alarmed about climate collapse aren't thinking critically about their sources, and yeah, no one is immune to manipulation and depressive biases probably are a factor but I do look into claims the best I can, although I am absolutely no scientist.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:53
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