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freedoms only exist for the community because the only context in which you exist is as part of the community, and any notion otherwise is the poison of liberalism fully suffusing your brain, making you think youre a little atomic monad that can go off on its own and have any meaning whatsoever in isolation
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Jul 18, 2021 22:04
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but on the other hand bedtimes are freakin fascism!!!!!
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Jul 18, 2021 22:04
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sitting alone in the woods, having lots of thoughts spring forth to me from the aether, all in a language of my own devising, free from any influence but the perfect acausal magic of my mighty soul
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Jul 18, 2021 22:07
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Ferrinus posted:you have absolutely not consistently protected yourself from exploitation *most* consistently, ofc i'm still getting hosed over/ground to dust. everyone is. definitely done a lot more to prevent that than any institution though. other than having the word proletariat in it, how is your dictatorship different from the last dozen or so? someone still has to run it, and since they can't know everyone they're governing even with perfect intentions the whole thing is gonna be an uncaring behemoth guided by their perspective and biases that puts perpetuating itself above all else Epic High Five posted:hell yeah I wanna be part of a mob that uses violence to impose their will on others, and I'll have you know I'm not some STATIST because I am FIRST AND FOREMOST concerned with the absolute sanctity of my right to do whatever I want to people "violence" always has been/will be around, and a state monopoly on it is p much the worst case scenario. i've been part of two mobs in my life and regret nothing about either. ran a thief out of town and burned a rapists camp down. it's an important responsibility when you're trying to live without cops, no hell yeah about it. both were white btw, since i feel like someone's gonna ask. i think maybe you're too infantilized by big brother/invested in the status quo to get it. when there's an emergency do you turn to 911 or your community? what would you do if there *was* no 911?
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Jul 18, 2021 22:14
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I wonder what the word proletariat means. probably no way to ever know tho
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Jul 18, 2021 22:16
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pnac attack posted:*most* consistently, ofc i'm still getting hosed over/ground to dust. everyone is. definitely done a lot more to prevent that than any institution though. other than having the word proletariat in it, how is your dictatorship different from the last dozen or so? someone still has to run it, and since they can't know everyone they're governing even with perfect intentions the whole thing is gonna be an uncaring behemoth guided by their perspective and biases that puts perpetuating itself above all else no, not "most consistently", because you simply haven't, straight up. you are being exploited, you have not stopped yourself from being exploited, you CANNOT stop yourself from being exploited, because you live under the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and only coordinated mass action can ever, ever change that
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Jul 18, 2021 22:22
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pnac attack posted:*most* consistently, ofc i'm still getting hosed over/ground to dust. everyone is. definitely done a lot more to prevent that than any institution though. other than having the word proletariat in it, how is your dictatorship different from the last dozen or so? someone still has to run it, and since they can't know everyone they're governing even with perfect intentions the whole thing is gonna be an uncaring behemoth guided by their perspective and biases that puts perpetuating itself above all else Yeah like we're saying, you're actually super on board with an ingroup monopolizing the legitimate use of violence but only in the scenario where you're part of the ingroup. You instinctively distrust any procedure being formalized beyond mob "justice" because you want to be able to do whatever degree of violence you feel necessary without any checks beyond having the biggest mob. Same with working toward any goal of a wider scope than just maintaining the favorable status quo. You want people to be held accountable to your standards while submitting to no standards yourself You are, at most, just rearranging what little has been allotted to you under the prevailing norms. You imposition of will upon others without recourse or formalized procedure is no more revolutionary than a little library
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Jul 18, 2021 22:26
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notably, mob violence is inherently exclusionary - some people are outside the mob or even the targets of the mob - and therefore the case can and will be made that your mob is elitist, authoritarian, top-down, tyrannical, etc
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Jul 18, 2021 22:29
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Look, it may seem like it's a brutal and authoritarian thing that is happening here, me having met up with some buddies and deciding you've got a date with a 308 in the woods because you just aren't contributing enough to our market driven economic mode, but I'd like you to take note that none of us have titles, so actually really you should be glad to be playing no small part in ending the capitalist status quo
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Jul 18, 2021 22:38
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Have there been any good rebuttals to the The Tyranny of Structurelessness?
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Jul 18, 2021 22:40
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:anarKKKism anarKKKi$$$m
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Jul 18, 2021 22:40
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ted hitler hunter posted:Have there been any good rebuttals to the The Tyranny of Structurelessness? There was an "official" one, I think The Tyranny of Tyranny. I made both part of a reading group session a couple years ago but all I can remember is that the takedown is a lot more convincing than the rebuttal
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Jul 18, 2021 22:42
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pnac attack posted:the force that has most consistently protected me from exploitation is me, wtf even is the dictatorship of the proletariat Are you for real? What a conceited load of shite. You depend on other people in ways you'll never fully comprehend. Society is fundamental to human freedom, true freedom. Epic High Five posted:hell yeah I wanna be part of a mob that uses violence to impose their will on others, and I'll have you know I'm not some STATIST because I am FIRST AND FOREMOST concerned with the absolute sanctity of my right to do whatever I want to people lol
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Jul 18, 2021 22:44
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Rutibex posted:rights come from peoples innate wish to be free and have autonomy. they come up with the ideology to justify it afterwards historically, free people were considered those who could own slaves and unfree people those who weren't meant to be free its a tautology for slave owners
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Jul 18, 2021 22:46
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It's me, the rugged individualist who has protected himself from exploitation more than anyone or anything else. It def wasn't due to gains being clawed from the bourgeoisie through decades' worth of incredibly violent class struggle lol
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Jul 18, 2021 22:51
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Top City Homo posted:historically, free people were considered those who could own slaves and unfree people those who weren't meant to be free that's roman propaganda. the iron age people surrounding rome were free until the romans came and enslaved them we must follow the example of the sea people and the germanic tribes. these are the successful anarchist syndicalists who smashed hierarchies and carved out a nice piece of land for themselves to live free from meddling empires (for a time)
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Jul 18, 2021 22:53
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ah yes, famously anarchistic peoples, the Gauls and Anglo-Saxons, and the possibly mythical combined military forces of many nations known colloquially as "the sea people"
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Jul 18, 2021 22:56
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Epic High Five posted:ah yes, famously anarchistic peoples, the Gauls and Anglo-Saxons, and the possibly mythical combined military forces of many nations known colloquially as "the sea people" anarchism: responsible for at least two dark ages i cannot spot the lie
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Jul 18, 2021 22:59
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Top City Homo posted:anarchism: responsible for at least two dark ages wait no I like this one better
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Jul 18, 2021 22:59
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*raping and pillaging* dam I love being free. this is praxis.
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Jul 18, 2021 22:59
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Ferrinus posted:no, not "most consistently", because you simply haven't, straight up. you are being exploited, you have not stopped yourself from being exploited, you CANNOT stop yourself from being exploited, because you live under the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and only coordinated mass action can ever, ever change that when someone tries to take my food or shelter and i don't let them that's not nothing. still being exploited but it's meaningful resistance and more than any institution has ever done for me. i feel like everyone i'm talking to must hold property Epic High Five posted:Yeah like we're saying, you're actually super on board with an ingroup monopolizing the legitimate use of violence but only in the scenario where you're part of the ingroup. You instinctively distrust any procedure being formalized beyond mob "justice" because you want to be able to do whatever degree of violence you feel necessary without any checks beyond having the biggest mob. Same with working toward any goal of a wider scope than just maintaining the favorable status quo. You want people to be held accountable to your standards while submitting to no standards yourself who's monopolizing here? what ingroup? there is no way you've ever even been in a squat. the thief stole from like eight people out of a community of ~60, all their poo poo was in his tent, and everyone else just started yelling at him and pushing him back to the road. the rapist was caught in the act, got stomped nearly to death, and disappeared into the night when calmer heads broke up the beatdown. everyone was still very angry and hurt and betrayed because we all had personal relationships with both the victim and perpetrator and burning his camp down was a natural sort of catharsis that made us feel better *and* raised a barrier to his return. completely organic process i trust waaaaaaaaaaay more than commissioning the most aggressive and controlling pricks you can find with badges and guns pnac attack has issued a correction as of 23:03 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 23:01
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pnac attack posted:when someone tries to take my food or home and i don't let them that's not nothing. still being exploited but it's meaningful resistance and more than any institution has ever done for me. i feel like everyone i'm talking to must hold property Nobody is talking about those specific incidents. We are talking about power, structure, and monopolies on violence and the forms they take. You're refusing to admit your own preferences that violence remain informal and doled out by ad hoc collections of individuals and keep retreating to anecdote because the logical conclusion of this belief heavily favors in-groups and fascists. You may be surprised to learn this, but communism also has means of dealing with rapists and thieves, oftentimes they have even more comprehensive methods than the "make them somebody else's problem" you described above
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Jul 18, 2021 23:07
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anarchy is just what people who went to college call living right. all other ideologies are for babies who need someone to tell them what to do or monsters who want to call the shots
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Jul 18, 2021 23:09
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what if, everyone was a cop
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Jul 18, 2021 23:10
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pnac attack posted:anarchy is just what people who went to college call living right. all other ideologies are for babies who need someone to tell them what to do or monsters who want to call the shots lmao
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Jul 18, 2021 23:11
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hahahahahahhhaaaaaaaaaa
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Jul 18, 2021 23:11
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Hey guys? What if we...no violence...at all...guys? Never mind.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:11
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docbeard posted:Hey guys? What if we...no violence...at all...guys? violence is inherent to the system maaaaan
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Jul 18, 2021 23:15
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Epic High Five posted:Nobody is talking about those specific incidents. We are talking about power, structure, and monopolies on violence and the forms they take. You're refusing to admit your own preferences that violence remain informal and doled out by ad hoc collections of individuals and keep retreating to anecdote because the logical conclusion of this belief heavily favors in-groups and fascists. You may be surprised to learn this, but communism also has means of dealing with rapists and thieves, oftentimes they have even more comprehensive methods than the "make them somebody else's problem" you described above i took your parody good ol' boys pickup truck execution as talking about em and tried to respond to that earnestly. i 100% admit my own preferences that violence remain informal and doled out by ad hoc collections of individuals, copypasted that line btw  . i think it favors acting on a smaller scale and not trusting some evil-rear end feds a thousand miles away to mediate human interaction. sorry you don't feel the natural consequences that arose in the two examples i've encountered were harsh enough, i guess
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Jul 18, 2021 23:20
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pnac attack posted:i took your parody good ol' boys pickup truck execution as talking about em and tried to respond to that earnestly. i 100% admit my own preferences that violence remain informal and doled out by ad hoc collections of individuals, copypasted that line btw I just hope that the future victims of those two have sufficient education to understand the necessity of their being allowed to continue their predations
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Jul 18, 2021 23:22
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Epic High Five posted:I just hope that the future victims of those two have sufficient education to understand the necessity of their being allowed to continue their predations i hope they have the agency and support to not be victimized and that the perpetrators were changed in some way by their experience. i'm not arrogant enough to think that's all my responsibility though. would you feel better or worse about it if no one had stopped us from stomping the rapist all the way into the dirt? from here it kinda felt like a natural series of checks and balances led to the outcome it was supposed to
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Jul 18, 2021 23:30
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and that's anarchy, baby
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Jul 18, 2021 23:32
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pnac attack posted:and that's anarchy, baby sounds poo poo op
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Jul 18, 2021 23:34
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The Germanic and sea people would later invent fascism. Really makes u think.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:38
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once the sea people learned to fly things really went pear shaped
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Jul 18, 2021 23:44
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The world would probably be a better place if the sea and Germanic people ended up following the moon god allah.
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Jul 18, 2021 23:46
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fortunately they ultimately made the mistake of seeking grievance with the tank people and that sorted it
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Jul 18, 2021 23:48
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pnac attack posted:when someone tries to take my food or shelter and i don't let them that's not nothing. still being exploited but it's meaningful resistance and more than any institution has ever done for me. i feel like everyone i'm talking to must hold property nope, lies. you do not and cannot stop yourself from being exploited. perhaps you can personally stop yourself from being physically beaten up or robbed by other private individuals, but you do unpaid labor day after day after day and cannot ever do anything about that on your own. there's nothing "meaningful" about your resistance because your boss and your landlord get to collect on your life-force no matter what you tell yourself at the end of the day
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Jul 19, 2021 00:03
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The solution to antisocial or criminal behavior is just to beat the poo poo out of em and/or run them out of town? this is psychotic lol
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Jul 19, 2021 00:09
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:The solution to antisocial or criminal behavior is just to beat the poo poo out of em and/or run them out of town? this is psychotic lol sounds authoritarian
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Jul 19, 2021 00:11
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