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Nessus posted:So is this saying that a mass given in Latin is invalid now? Was this like a retroactive change? This confuses me. So the Traditional Latin Mass, or Tridentine Mass (so called because its original form was promulgated at the Council of Trent), is the one published in the 1962 Roman Missal. With Vatican II, the Mass of St Paul, or Novus Ordo Mass, was promulgated, with multiple translations into various languages - the aim being that Mass should be said in whatever the local vernacular is. There is a Latin version of this Mass. As this is the current main form of Mass, it is called the Ordinary Mass. This form of Mass was unpopular with a large segment of the Church (even an atheist theologian I know expressed his distaste for it!) for a number of reasons, and dislike of the Ordinary Mass became a focal point of general discontent with the outcome of Vatican II. Benedict XVI issued the Summorum Pontificum in 2007, which said "all priests can use the TLM privately, and parishes that wish to use the TLM can do so". This established the TLM as an Extraordinary Mass - there are other Extraordinary Masses, but when someone uses the term without context this is what they mean. The hope, as I understand it, was that this would decouple the link between the TLM and dissent from Vatican II. From the letter accompanying the motu proprio, we can assume that Pope Francis does not agree with this. Now this letter has stripped all priests and organisations of their previous right to use the TLM, and required everyone to ask their bishop for permission to use it, with a lot of restrictions for the bishop to consider - with the most significant one IMO being that bishops should not grant permission to new organisations. And the bishop can just say "no, we don't do that in my diocese" and that's the end of it. So no Masses are being held retroactively invalid, but the right to perform the TLM has essentially been put on a firm leash. (And all of this is happening in the context of the dissent of the German bishops on the liberal wing of the church, with the unspoken implication being "I have chosen which side I am going to crack down on".) I hope these words are of solace to the people in this thread struggling to reconcile recent events with their faith: Micah 6:6-8 posted:6 With what will I come before the Lord
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Jul 18, 2021 21:32
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I understand the issue is being seen as something of a stalking-horse for anti-Vatican-II sentiment, but it would seem the equitable thing would be to attempt to provide both Masses at least occasionally, if with the understanding that if you are down to your absolute minimum of celebrant potential, you should have it be in the vernacular.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:55
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That was essentially what the last ~30 years have been. Pope John Paul II allowed limited use of the Tridentine mass in 1984. We're at a point now where most of the people who remember the Tridentine Mass as the standard are elderly at best, and the pressure towards it appears to be coming in large part from arch-conservatives harking, as they do, back to a 'better day' when the laity was not involved in the mass except as spectators with an occasional call and response. To quote Pope Francis from his time as Archbishop of Buenos Aires: quote:I always try to understand what’s behind the people who are too young to have lived the pre-conciliar liturgy but who want it. Sometimes I’ve found myself in front of people who are too strict, who have a rigid attitude. And I wonder: How come such a rigidity? Dig, dig, this rigidity always hides something: insecurity, sometimes even more.... Rigidity is defensive. True love is not rigid.
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Jul 19, 2021 00:57
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Liquid Communism posted:To quote Pope Francis from his time as Archbishop of Buenos Aires: That's quite the quote from a guy who just invoked the literal inquisition in demanding traditional groups fall in line.
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Jul 19, 2021 01:31
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Liquid Communism posted:That was essentially what the last ~30 years have been. For a lot of people who prefer the TLM, they find that it actually helps them to worship better and that they feel MORe a part of the worship, as opposed to when they participate in NO. I always find it kind of silly when people say "Oh those TLM just want to a Mass we're they're spectators", when the common response I get from TLM attendees is it makes them feel more involved, not less. I don't know, maybe we should listen to the people attending about how it makes them feel rather than just assume they want to be a spectator and say the Rosary while the Mass goes on. quote:To quote Pope Francis from his time as Archbishop of Buenos Aires: This is pretty funny since Pope Francis only gets rigid when it comes to radtrads. I wonder what he's hiding under the surface in that case... Honestly I just chalk this up to old people not understanding that (some) young people crave tradition and stability, and interpreting in typical old person fasion that young people are dumb and should just do what old people want. Captain Von Trapp posted:quotes I appreciate you putting what I've been trying to say in better words and ways than I could have. On the topic of the Spanish Inquisition by the by, I always found it fascinating that they were the first Court system in Europe with free public defendants and that people frequently blasphemed when caught by Spanish civil authorities because they knew the punishments of the Inquisition were less than the civil authorities at the time. But then it's only been in the last 60 years that modern scholarship has been able to start reversing a lot of the damage the English Black Legend did when it came Catholic history.
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Jul 19, 2021 13:24
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Speaking as a Jew: Are we whitewashing the Inquisition now?
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Jul 19, 2021 16:35
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Freudian posted:Speaking as a Jew: Are we whitewashing the Inquisition now? Yeah, there will always be the important point that the Spanish Inquisition's reason for being was to help enforce ethnic cleansing, originally.
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Jul 19, 2021 16:47
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Freudian posted:Speaking as a Jew: Are we whitewashing the Inquisition now? Not at all, just pointing out that the Inquisition has gotten a lot more focus in the last 60 years which has presented a more historically complicated picture. Forced conversion, religious persecution, and ethnic cleansing, all which took place in the Spanish Inquisition are obviously crimes against humanity, which is why Pope John Paul II apologized for it back in 2000 (And Spain in 2020). But a number of things commonly believed about the Inquisition, specifically the Spanish Inquisition, are not necessarily true (That the Spanish throne went after Jews and Muslims is definitely true, but no one debates that point nowadays). The BBC (hardly an apologist for the Catholic Church) had a good documentary about the Spanish Inquisition back in 1994 when most of this revision research was going on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY-pS6iLFuc (To be fair, the documentary doesn't really touch on the expulsion of Jews and Muslims that the Spanish state engaged in simultaneously with the Spanish Inquisition). I just don't think mentioning the Inquisition in a conversation should count as a mic drop moment.
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Jul 19, 2021 18:14
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Not at all, just pointing out that the Inquisition has gotten a lot more focus in the last 60 years which has presented a more historically complicated picture. Forced conversion, religious persecution, and ethnic cleansing, all which took place in the Spanish Inquisition are obviously crimes against humanity, which is why Pope John Paul II apologized for it back in 2000 (And Spain in 2020). But a number of things commonly believed about the Inquisition, specifically the Spanish Inquisition, are not necessarily true (That the Spanish throne went after Jews and Muslims is definitely true, but no one debates that point nowadays). The BBC (hardly an apologist for the Catholic Church) had a good documentary about the Spanish Inquisition back in 1994 when most of this revision research was going on. https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762?lang=en EDIT: like you're saying "yes, yes, there were some instances of crimes against humanity against Jews, Muslims, and the entire Americas, but you have to consider the NUANCE of it". gently caress no!
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Jul 19, 2021 19:05
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Personally I think that bringing up the fact that an organization that did ethnic cleansing did, in fact, do ethnic cleansing should kind of be a mic drop moment.
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Jul 19, 2021 19:06
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The BBC, hardly an apologist for drunk driving…
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Jul 19, 2021 19:07
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Also it should be noted that I'm not saying the Spanish Inquisition was particularly worse in its treatment of the Americas than the other colonial powers. They were all: terrible. But genocide isn't graded on a curve.
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Jul 19, 2021 19:18
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Jul 19, 2021 19:42
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Also, I don’t think an apology counts for much when the Catholic Church continues to be more than happy to support all sorts of horrific regimes as long as they throw the church a bone, and still wants to eliminate indigenous religion, and assimilate indigenous peoples in order to expand its power, influence, and wealth. It’s easy to say “oh yeah we’re totally sorry” several hundred years after the fact, and then do nothing else differently.
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Jul 19, 2021 20:03
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Freudian posted:https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762?lang=en Are you saying we shouldn’t discuss the Spanish Inquisition at all because of its crimes, or that you think their crimes are being excused by saying that they had due process for some of their victims? Because the first case is going to make a lot of discussions come to a screeching halt if we extend that principle, and I don’t think the second case is what’s going on, and in the spirit of the thread I think the most charitable interpretation of a poster’s intentions should be the default until proven otherwise.
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Jul 19, 2021 21:05
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"On the topic of the Congo Free State by the by, I always found it fascinating that they were the first colony in Africa with guaranteed employment and that people frequently went to work when caught by Free State civil authorities because they knew the punishments of employment were less than the other colonies at the time. But then it's only been in the last 60 years that modern scholarship has been able to start reversing a lot of the damage the UK and French did when it came to Leopold's history." If this had been posted in an African history thread, I would already have been probated. Any good the Inquisition may have done is entirely eclipsed by its multifarious crimes, which were implicit in its founding and mission, and to attempt discussion of its benefits stripped of any context is ignorant at best. Good faith only counts for so much.
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Jul 19, 2021 21:44
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Well on Sunday I went to a traditional Mass celebrated without permission of the bishop. Not sure what censures are in store for me. https://twitter.com/Card_R_Sarah/status/1416754810989301760?s=20 Liquid Communism posted:We're at a point now where most of the people who remember the Tridentine Mass as the standard are elderly at best, and the pressure towards it appears to be coming in large part from arch-conservatives harking, as they do, back to a 'better day' when the laity was not involved in the mass except as spectators with an occasional call and response. There's a big push from younger Catholics, especially younger clergy.
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Jul 19, 2021 22:08
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It's possible to separate moral judgment and historical fact. In terms of body count and general unpleasantness, the Inquisition would be a footnote in the history in Europe if it hadn't been politically advantageous for Protestant kings to fire up the propaganda mill. People in this very thread are invoking genocide and the Congo Free State (tens of millions dead) and drunk driving (tens of thousands dead annually) to describe something with an average annual body count in the tens. I don't know what the opposite of whitewashing is, but we shouldn't do it either.
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Jul 19, 2021 22:19
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"A footnote in the history of Europe" - it is absolutely not a footnote in the history of A) the Jewish people, B) the Islamic Mediterranean, or C) the Spanish and Portuguese colonial empires and their relationships with their indigenous subjects. This is the worst post you have ever made.
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Jul 19, 2021 22:38
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All I am asking for this thread is to not make excuses for the Inquisition. If that's too much for some posters then maybe this isn't the space I thought it was.
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Jul 19, 2021 22:39
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Captain von Trapp posted:It's possible to separate moral judgment and historical fact. In terms of body count and general unpleasantness, the Inquisition would be a footnote in the history in Europe if it hadn't been politically advantageous for Protestant kings to fire up the propaganda mill. People in this very thread are invoking genocide and the Congo Free State (tens of millions dead) and drunk driving (tens of thousands dead annually) to describe something with an average annual body count in the tens. There’s the issue of how much involvement the Spanish Inquisition had in the genocide of Native Americans, but eventually people are going to engage in what-about-ism and invoke bad things done (and being done) by co-religionists of the victims of the Spanish Inquistion and we’ll just compare body counts until the thread gets locked.
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Jul 19, 2021 22:45
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Captain von Trapp posted:It's possible to separate moral judgment and historical fact. In terms of body count and general unpleasantness, the Inquisition would be a footnote in the history in Europe if it hadn't been politically advantageous for Protestant kings to fire up the propaganda mill. People in this very thread are invoking genocide and the Congo Free State (tens of millions dead) and drunk driving (tens of thousands dead annually) to describe something with an average annual body count in the tens. That’s an interesting focus there, completely disregarding the history of the Inquisition in places around the world invaded by the Spanish and Portuguese empires, but ok, let’s stick to Europe. Surprisingly, it isn’t just about the sheer executions. The mass forced conversions, the continuous hounding of the conversos, and the expulsion of Jews and Muslims: all of these were done with gleeful endorsement and active help from the Catholic Church. The entire organization is forever stained with this. The fact that other organized churches were doing similarly awful things in no way absolves the Holy See. Being merely one engine of death and suffering of many doesn’t get the stains out of the marble floors. And if we’re still sticking to Europe for some reason, don’t even get me started on the Albigensian Crusade.
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Jul 19, 2021 22:56
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Freudian posted:All I am asking for this thread is to not make excuses for the Inquisition. If that's too much for some posters then maybe this isn't the space I thought it was. That’s not too much. We have had a history that no amount of adjectives (horrible, terrible, disgusting, etc) can accurately describe. We have to come to terms with that and figure out where to go from there. Listening to the peoples and their descendants that we hurt is number 1 on the list.
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Jul 19, 2021 22:59
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And oh my god, “average annual body count in the tens”? The church, together with the Spanish crown, merely killed a few dozen people a year for the crime of… worshipping god wrong? Are you kidding me?
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Jul 19, 2021 22:59
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I did not expect this conversation
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Jul 19, 2021 23:00
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Slimy Hog posted:I did not expect this conversation No one does.
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Jul 19, 2021 23:00
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I'll come in again.
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Jul 19, 2021 23:01
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Captain von Trapp posted:It's possible to separate moral judgment and historical fact. Ok, clearly not. I won't pursue the subject further. This though is worth a little meta-commentary: Freudian posted:This is the worst post you have ever made. Oh I doubt it, but leave me personally aside for the moment and consider this thread as a discussion of religion generally. The perspective I expressed is considered a mild and mainstream viewpoint among practicing Catholics. It's worth being aware of even if you disagree.
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Jul 19, 2021 23:18
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Captain von Trapp posted:The perspective I expressed is considered a mild and mainstream viewpoint among practicing Catholics. It's worth being aware of even if you disagree. “The inquisition would be a footnote in the history of Europe if it hadn’t been politically advantageous for Protestant kings to fire up the propaganda mill” is a mild and mainstream view? I hope that’s only among tradcaths.
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Jul 19, 2021 23:39
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Kayten posted:“The inquisition would be a footnote in the history of Europe if it hadn’t been politically advantageous for Protestant kings to fire up the propaganda mill” is a mild and mainstream view? It's certainly news to me that 'The Inquisition was a footnote! No biggy, just a little ethnic cleansing. Mostly just useful for protestant propaganda' is 'mild and moderate'.
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Jul 19, 2021 23:50
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Captain von Trapp posted:Ok, clearly not. I won't pursue the subject further. Saying “most Catholics don’t care much about the ethnic cleansing and genocide carried out by the church during the inquisition (or throughout its history),” is a more damning indictment of the religion than anything I would put forward. I suppose you may be technically correct, if only because most people don’t learn about these things, the church attempts to downplay it and cover it up, and people who do need to come up with a way to justify it to remain with the church. Or, I suppose, simply see it as a good thing.
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Jul 19, 2021 23:53
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Now I wonder what the official record of the Catholic Church and the general understanding among its adherents are re: Native American boarding schools. Kind of. In the more general sense of "to what extent does the Church acknowledge these historical abuses," I certainly don't want to cast blame on our thread Catholics or add fuel to the fire in this discussion. I've done a lot of advocacy this summer with our tribal youth organizations trying to get remains repatriated. I won't go into more detail because that would doxx me more than I'm really comfortable. Let me just say it's very emotionally heavy and the legacy of boarding schools (many run by the Church) on tribal communities is tremendous. In the 1920s more than 80% of all Native American kids in the US were in boarding schools. It's a generational trauma that is responsible for much of the suffering and challenges on reservations today.
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Jul 20, 2021 00:06
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Kayten posted:“The inquisition would be a footnote in the history of Europe if it hadn’t been politically advantageous for Protestant kings to fire up the propaganda mill” is a mild and mainstream view? Not in my trad circles.
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Jul 20, 2021 00:09
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Fritz the Horse posted:Now I wonder what the official record of the Catholic Church and the general understanding among its adherents are re: Native American boarding schools. Kind of. In the more general sense of "to what extent does the Church acknowledge these historical abuses," I certainly don't want to cast blame on our thread Catholics or add fuel to the fire in this discussion. there was an article in the american conservative defending them because they "brought souls to christ" and there is literally no ends that doesn't justify that means, the Manitoba premier is facing calls to resign because he struggled with saying "the residential schools are bad actually" without equivocating, an ontario parish priest resigned because he defended them post mass-child-grave news for some reason and the church/pope francis have yet to issue an outright apology so there's some work to do there definitely.
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Jul 20, 2021 00:14
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Fritz the Horse posted:Now I wonder what the official record of the Catholic Church and the general understanding among its adherents are re: Native American boarding schools. Kind of. In the more general sense of "to what extent does the Church acknowledge these historical abuses," I certainly don't want to cast blame on our thread Catholics or add fuel to the fire in this discussion. I’m up here on the land occupied by Canada. The Catholic Church proper continues to refuse to apologize. The Canadian Church fought tooth and nail to keep their records from being released, and block searches for bodies. Back in 2006, they agreed as part of a law suit by survivors to pay 25,000,000, of which they paid 4,000,000 before going back to the courts to argue they had no more money. The formal position tends to be along the lines of “oh, we just loved indigenous peoples too much, and we didn’t realize what harm we were doing out of the goodness of our hearts,” rather than a deliberate project of eliminating indigenous peoples. For a sample: https://www.cccb.ca/indigenous-peoples/resources/indian-residential-schools-truth-reconciliation-commission/ Incidentally, if anyone wants an introductory piece on the residential schools, I wrote one a few months back.
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Jul 20, 2021 00:20
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:there was an article in the american conservative defending them because they "brought souls to christ" and there is literally no ends that doesn't justify that means, the Manitoba premier is facing calls to resign because he struggled with saying "the residential schools are bad actually" without equivocating, an ontario parish priest resigned because he defended them post mass-child-grave news for some reason and the church/pope francis have yet to issue an outright apology so there's some work to do there definitely. Even the guy appointed by the government of Manitoba to pretend like reconciliation isn’t a farce couldn’t get through his acceptance speech before saying: "At the time I think the intent … they thought they were doing the right thing. In retrospect, it's easy to judge in the past. But at the time, they really thought that they were doing the right thing," "From my knowledge of it, the residential school system was designed to take Indigenous children and give them the skills and abilities they would need to fit into society as it moved forward."
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Jul 20, 2021 00:26
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Freudian posted:https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762?lang=en That's not what I'm saying. Thing A can still be evil because of 1A detail being really evil, while 1B, another detail that was commonly believed to be true, can later be proven to be false and talked about. I'm not challenging the ultimate moral judgement of the Spanish Inquisition (Evil), I just think the better we understand a topic and all its facets, the better off we are to make a judgement about it. And if we can dispel a myth here or there (Some of those myths still appearing in textbooks today), so much the better. quote:All I am asking for this thread is to not make excuses for the Inquisition. If that's too much for some posters then maybe this isn't the space I thought it was. Not trying to excuse any historical atrocities here. If I can share my own perspective, I've had to engage in a lot of Catholic apologetics growing up dealing with people asking "How can you be a Catholic when X happened in history?" with a lot of X typically being historically false stuff (I can't tell you how many times I've been told the Catholic Church wrote Malleus Maleficarum, a book they... condemned and excommunicated the writer of). That often leads me to try to add more context to history involving the Catholic Church, not to excuse or ignore crimes that have been committed, but to talk about it and make sure I and the other party understand what we're actually talking about. If in the course of that it's come across that I'm trying to whitewash something, and have offended someone, I apologize, as that wasn't my intent. Tiberius Typhen posted:The Catholic Church proper continues to refuse to apologize. Pope Benedict XVI apologized in 2009 after that Federal Reconciliation Panel first published its findings. https://www.ctvnews.ca/pope-apologizes-for-abuse-at-native-schools-1.393911 quote:"There was a feeling that despite the apologies that were offered by the oblates and some bishops, that the Catholic Church as a whole has not recognized the part that we played.
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Jul 20, 2021 01:21
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Here's a pretty typical post from what I think's one of the best-known tradcath websites about the current residential school reckoning. It forthrightly admits the scope and scale of the wrongdoing, but will otherwise win few fans here.
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Jul 20, 2021 01:22
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Pope Benedict XVI apologized in 2009 after that Federal Reconciliation Panel first published its findings. https://www.ctvnews.ca/pope-apologizes-for-abuse-at-native-schools-1.393911 No, what he said was: “His Holiness recalled that since the earliest days of her presence in Canada, the Church, particularly through her missionary personnel, has closely accompanied the indigenous peoples. Given the sufferings that some indigenous children experienced in the Canadian Residential School system, the Holy Father expressed his sorrow at the anguish caused by the deplorable conduct of some members of the Church and he offered his sympathy and prayerful solidarity. His Holiness emphasized that acts of abuse cannot be tolerated in society. He prayed that all those affected would experience healing, and he encouraged First Nations Peoples to continue to move forward with renewed hope.” He does the whole song and dance about how actually the Church loves indigenous peoples (even praising earlier colonialism) downplays what was done (reducing it to “some indigenous children” “experiencing anguish”) then says he feels bad that some bad apples did some bad things (completely abdicating responsibility) Tiberius Thyben fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jul 20, 2021 |
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Jul 20, 2021 01:40
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Fritz the Horse posted:In the 1920s more than 80% of all Native American kids in the US were in boarding schools. It's a generational trauma that is responsible for much of the suffering and challenges on reservations today. Wow. I had no idea. Any recommended reading if I want to learn more about this?
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Jul 20, 2021 02:08
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