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If Tyrion died because of that plan would anything in the show after have changed? I guess Bran would need a new Hand, but he could just pick someone else.
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Jul 20, 2021 17:54
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bobjr posted:If Tyrion died because of that plan would anything in the show after have changed? I guess Bran would need a new Hand, but he could just pick someone else. Maybe Bran's not king because then Tyrion isn't there to advocate for it?
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Jul 20, 2021 17:57
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PostNouveau posted:Maybe Bran's not king because then Tyrion isn't there to advocate for it? Yeah someone had to give that dumb speech about the importance of stories. And give him a humiliating ableist nickname.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:02
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I wonder, if Tyrion had died would they at least have put his name in the book about Game of Thrones as a casualty?
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Jul 20, 2021 19:05
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Zaphod42 posted:In the books its not Sansa, but some other girl who is passed off as a fake Sansa. This makes about a billion times more sense, but... was too complicated for tv or something? I think it was like 90% motivated by production logistics really. you get a bunch of principal actors on the same sets which I would imagine makes scheduling easer and saves you money that can be used to pay for filming clumsy fight scenes at an expensive real life spanish palace for like two hours at a time
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Jul 20, 2021 19:09
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I don't remember book Littlefinger being nearly as dumb as show Littlefinger. Look, the show needed the bad pussy, what can you do
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Jul 20, 2021 19:21
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I don't remember book Littlefinger being nearly as dumb as show Littlefinger. Yeah D&D handing over the scripts to the sand snakes and being like "oh yeah your next line is 'you need the bad pussy'" had to have been really loving awkward on set. It really wasn't their fault the characters sucked so bad. Areo Hotah was loving robbed.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:29
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romanowski posted:I think it was like 90% motivated by production logistics really. you get a bunch of principal actors on the same sets which I would imagine makes scheduling easer and saves you money that can be used to pay for filming clumsy fight scenes at an expensive real life spanish palace for like two hours at a time I don't think swapping Sansa's actress for someone else would really make a difference in the grand scheme of GOT production at ALL. Nah its just that Sophie Turner was getting popular and people liked the Sansa character. So the idea of "well, here's this other girl being passed off as Sansa, and the real Sansa is just like, off in hiding right now" didn't sound great to them. The problem is "well lets just have Littlefinger give over the real Sansa to a rapist" makes absolutely no loving sense for ANY of the characters involved. They wanted to give real Sansa more screen time, but had no loving clue how to go about it. The much smarter thing would have been to have it still be fake Sansa and have Sansa manipulate Littlefinger in the Vale, or have Sansa join Jon earlier.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:32
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An insane mind posted:I wonder, if Tyrion had died would they at least have put his name in the book about Game of Thrones as a casualty? That "you're not in the book" is such a betrayal of everything the show has been for a dumb joke, its so representative of how D&D think of writing. Consistency doesn't matter for poo poo, everything is disposable and temporary. I legit thought that it was supposed to just be that Sam was loving with Tyrion and he's actually in there, because it makes zero sense otherwise. He's a rich noble, hand of the king, fought in major battles, etc. etc. there's no way you can ignore him in a history of the kingdoms. But I think it is supposed to be that and its just dumb. Like everything else in that season. I guess that's my version of when everybody assumed Arya was Fight Club-ing with the Waif and it was all in her head, because the story was so dumb that was the only thing that made sense.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:35
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Zaphod42 posted:The much smarter thing would have been to have it still be fake Sansa and have Sansa manipulate Littlefinger in the Vale, or have Sansa join Jon earlier. Or take a year off like Bran. Sansa's just hanging out in the Vale for a year.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:45
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PostNouveau posted:Or take a year off like Bran. Sansa's just hanging out in the Vale for a year. That's what they should have done, what the books did, but like I said, I can understand wanting to give Sophie Turner something to do for that season. But having her become a victim right when she was in the middle of a redemption arc was the absolute wrong move.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:47
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:fuckin lol imagine being Areo, getting to go to costuming and see how fuckin badass your character is going to be, and how you get to chill with Alexander Siddig. Then reading the script. I remember reading this rumor that one of the actors, who was a huge fan of the books, got really pissed at D&D for killing their character off. Everyone assumed it was Finn Jones but I think it was either Alexander Siddig or Deobia Oparei. If I had to bet I'd say it was the latter.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:55
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Vichan posted:I remember reading this rumor that one of the actors, who was a huge fan of the books, got really pissed at D&D for killing their character off. We know for a fact that Ian McElhinney (Barristan Selmy) read the books and was furious with D&D when he found out they were killing him off early (in a poo poo scene too). And in response D&D said "That pissed us off, and made us want to kill him even more" Yeah, the fact that your actor read a bunch of huge books to prepare for the role and wants to be true to the source material is definitely a personal slight against you, that fucker! Edgar Allen Ho posted:2. There are literally like four other PoCs with notable roles in the whole show. Drogo, Grey Worm, Missandei, Oberyn... Salladoor?? Xoro Xoan Ducksauce? Yeah I can't say for sure but I have to argue that racism may have played a big role in D&D's decisions. White characters get infinite screentime, we have like a handful of POC characters and they're basically all treated like poo poo, regardless of what they did in the books. People were upset Missandei died largely because she was the only POC character given anything to do beyond Grey Worm. But that's more damning about the show overall than just how they handled her character alone.
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Jul 20, 2021 20:03
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Sansa didn’t even get a big chance to save herself, it was more an excuse for Theon to get his
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Jul 20, 2021 20:04
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Also, Euron wasn't Euron Greyjoy. He didn't act anything like the Euron Greyjoy from the books. I've said it before, but you know who he exactly acted like? Salladhor Saan. He's canonically a literal pirate, that's his profession. He goes on about "I'm going to gently caress the queen!" way back in a much earlier season. He's a silly guy with fun stories who likes to sleep around. That is EXACTLY who Euron in the show is. Again, nothing like the intelligent, scheming Euron from the books who uses black magic and manipulates everybody, even his own family, to do his bidding, without them even realizing it. Why not just have Salladhor Saan come back and give him more of a role? Let him charm Cersei instead of Euron. I'd watch that! It'd end up pitting him against Ser Davos, but they don't have the strongest alliance so that could work interestingly too. They could have a navy battle against each other, and you could see conflict that they don't want to hurt each other but they're on opposite factions... Ah, but he's a black guy so.... lets introduce a new white character.
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Jul 20, 2021 20:08
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Zaphod42 posted:Why not just have Salladhor Saan come back and give him more of a role? Let him charm Cersei instead of Euron. I'd watch that! It'd end up pitting him against Ser Davos, but they don't have the strongest alliance so that could work interestingly too. They could have a navy battle against each other, and you could see conflict that they don't want to hurt each other but they're on opposite factions... Also good way to get Arya back from across the ocean in the plot lmao.
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Jul 20, 2021 20:11
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I remember in one of the season 8 episodes there is a Sansa & Hound wrap-up scene where she says she is thankful for the unceasingly traumatic twists her life took the past several seasons because it made her stronger, something like that. Yeah, okay.
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Jul 20, 2021 20:22
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indiscriminately posted:I remember in one of the season 8 episodes there is a Sansa & Hound wrap-up scene where she says she is thankful for the unceasingly traumatic twists her life took the past several seasons because it made her stronger, something like that. Yeah, okay. Its worse. Hound straight up goes "Sorry you got raped" and Sansa goes "NO, it was an important character growth moment for me" loving yikes. Not wanting to let yourself be a victim forever is cool but that's not exactly how you show it.
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Jul 20, 2021 20:35
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I understand they probably just didn't have the budget to expand the Vale stuff, but it's a major bummer they went the way they did. Especially because that Sansa chapter that GRRM released from Winds of Winter was really good and then you compare it to her getting just dumped in Winterfell to get tortured with Theon for a season.
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Jul 20, 2021 20:42
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Budget was never a problem, they were spending more per minute of film than many studio-backed film productions. It's honestly hilarious how they had made the most popular television show, and the final bastion of Water Cooler Conversations, were offered more money and resources and episodes, but blew it all up because they wanted to move onto other projects that meant more to them. They hosed up GoT so badly it torpedoed the rest of their careers. Like, I've never seen something memory-holed so fast: it went from the most common topic of conversation to completely ignored in about a month...
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Jul 20, 2021 21:14
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It truly is staggering to think about how much merchandize HBO had built that then became worthless, unsellable garbage overnight. If you hired two people to completely ruin all fan goodwill and interest in a franchise, I don't think you could have pulled it off as well or as quickly. Its truly impressively awful.
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Jul 20, 2021 21:16
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The whole stretch of the final "season" was so obviously rushed and just "let's get this over with..." The writing overall just got so lazy, I remember an interview with Dinklage and he was like "Tyrion goes down to the crypt with all of the dead people, while fighting an army that raises the dead...I thought he was smart, but I guess not that smart." And then they put that poo poo in the aftercredits or whatever!  The video of the final table read...just trying to imagine how far up my own rear end I'd have to be to think it was a good idea to film that. 
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Jul 20, 2021 21:20
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Season 7 was just as bad, it just didn't have to wrap up anything important so it's less of a big deal that it was bad.
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Jul 20, 2021 21:47
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It's not so weird that D&D think rape makes for great character growth for women. Their pet project show where the south won the Civil War was going to be a cross of antebellum poo poo and handmaid tale. I am so glad they didn't get to make that show.
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Jul 20, 2021 23:06
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Zaphod42 posted:Also, Euron wasn't Euron Greyjoy. He didn't act anything like the Euron Greyjoy from the books. Euron only had two scenes in the show where he was actually Book Euron: his intro where he appears out of nowhere on the bridge at Pyke and kills Balon, and the ambush attack on Yara's fleet where he comes out of the fire riding a battering ram down like an insane rock star.
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Jul 20, 2021 23:10
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An insane mind posted:It's not so weird that D&D think rape makes for great character growth for women. Their pet project show where the south won the Civil War was going to be a cross of antebellum poo poo and handmaid tale. It reminds me of that story about Mark Millar's (rejected) plan for a Wonder Woman comic wherein Diana is raped. Millar literally likened it to the "Death of Superman," the ultimate Fall for the character in some vague literary sense. In the imagination of some edgy, regressive bro (which I'd say equally describes D&D), the worst thing that can happen to a man is violence - Superman's death, Batman's paralysis, Jaime's amputation - but the worst thing that can happen to a woman is rape. A Fate Worse Than Death. D&D press that button all the goddamn time on GoT, that around every corner is rape. The omnipresent risk facing all women in Westeros is rape. You can certainly argue that this would be a realistic feature of the setting, but D&D's emphasis on it felt purposefully antagonistic. "These mutineers are bad because they're rapists. These commoners are dangerous because they're rapists. Shae is a badass because she can defend herself against rapists. Sam is a good guy because he protects Gilly from rapists." The S5 Sansa plot is obviously the nadir of that thinking. But it also highlights just how loving lazy D&D were as they conceived it. I actually agree with them that it'd feel dramatically unrewarding to shelve Sansa and introduce some random new character (Jeyne Poole as not-Arya), but why does that mean Sansa slots into the exact same victim role Jeyne did? Why does that mean jettisoning the entire "Dark Sansa Rising" implications of S4 and throwing her right back where she was in S2? Book-Ramsay brutalizes and victimizes Jeyne because he's an uncontrollable sadist and she is powerless. But S5 Sansa is already powerful in the show: she has the full backing of the Vale, one of the only military powers in Westeros not decimated by war. Maybe Sansa realizes that, is able to manipulate Ramsay the way Margaery would. Maybe Show-Ramsay isn't some unstoppable force, but an insecure little poo poo under the heel of his pragmatist father the way Joffrey was with Tywin. Maybe Sansa's conflict isn't persevering through trauma, but the moral challenge of witnessing Ramsay torture the powerless while she's forced to keep politicking.
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Jul 21, 2021 00:41
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Xealot posted:The S5 Sansa plot is obviously the nadir of that thinking. But it also highlights just how loving lazy D&D were as they conceived it. I actually agree with them that it'd feel dramatically unrewarding to shelve Sansa and introduce some random new character (Jeyne Poole as not-Arya), but why does that mean Sansa slots into the exact same victim role Jeyne did? Why does that mean jettisoning the entire "Dark Sansa Rising" implications of S4 and throwing her right back where she was in S2? My point exactly. Even if you really really wanted to give Sansa more screen time, the whole point of S4 was she was learning to play the game. So now she should... PLAY THE GAME. Either have her escape some clever way or have her kill Ramsay or play him against himself, but just making her a victim and having it become food for Theon's story is sooooo loving wrong. Maybe Ramsay has something he's hiding and she finds out and gets him to expose himself. Maybe he once killed a Lannister and covered it up, and she manipulates him into spilling the beans and then the Lannisters break from the Boltons because of it. I don't know, that took me 3 seconds, there's so many possibilities.
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Jul 21, 2021 00:55
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More than one Medievalists have gone into detail on how GRRMs “grounded” setting is far more violent and rapey than actual history.
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Jul 21, 2021 01:54
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There’s a bigger problem with Ramsay being an invincible villain in both battle and strategy where he just couldn’t lose too. Especially since the whole point of Joffrey was he was entitled and cruel it won him no favors overall. He even ruined the Telltale game by showing up too much.
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Jul 21, 2021 12:20
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:More than one Medievalists have gone into detail on how GRRMs “grounded” setting is far more violent and rapey than actual history. There was one historian who did some research and found out that it's pretty realistic when it comes to the death rate of nobles: :https://www.livescience.com/59836-game-of-thrones-death-rate-realistic.html Alhazred fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jul 21, 2021 |
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Jul 21, 2021 12:30
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:More than one Medievalists have gone into detail on how GRRMs “grounded” setting is far more violent and rapey than actual history. Ah interesting. Has any research been done on the historicity of dragons in real life vs how they are portrayed in the fantasy series asoiaf?
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Jul 21, 2021 12:40
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regulargonzalez posted:Ah interesting. Has any research been done on the historicity of dragons in real life vs how they are portrayed in the fantasy series asoiaf? People nitpick GRRM because he goes out of his way to pleasure his ego over how based on real history his world building is. No ones doing it for the thousand other fantasy book series. GRRM posted:The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures… Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes… seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. He also famously talked about how Tolkien didn’t do what he did because we don’t know things like Aragorn’s tax laws.
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Jul 21, 2021 15:03
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How many times did Tolkien interrupt the plot to put in a page description of food
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Jul 21, 2021 15:14
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It's funny GRRM pronounces it Dothrak-eye when I think everyone else reads it the way the show says it.
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Jul 21, 2021 15:16
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Tolkien liked to interrupt the plot to have Tom Bombadil sing yet another song.
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Jul 21, 2021 15:18
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Literally in that quote he says it's fantasy. But your point is taken. I've also read some scholarly research that indicates that the Victorian era had somewhat less pride but more prejudice than some so-called authors would have you believe.
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Jul 21, 2021 15:19
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I sort of agree that Middle Earth never felt like a "real" place to me because it doesn't ever really dwell on how anything works. It doesn't have to though, to me it reads more like a legend or a religious text compared to more modern fantasy stuff.
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Jul 21, 2021 15:21
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:
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Jul 21, 2021 16:00
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GRRM came to the bookstore I was working at about a decade ago and someone asked him about the long summers and orbital periods and he was asking if all of this complicated math he did explained how the world could be the way it was and GRRM just said "it's like that because I made it up..."
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Jul 21, 2021 17:19
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:GRRM came to the bookstore I was working at about a decade ago and someone asked him about the long summers and orbital periods and he was asking if all of this complicated math he did explained how the world could be the way it was and GRRM just said "it's like that because I made it up..." Pretty sure he’s said that there’s some magical reason that he’ll get into one day (so never)
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Jul 21, 2021 17:23
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