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Blood Boils posted:IIRC the sequence of events that ends the siege of Mordor is that after Anarion gets his head crushed under the walls of the dark tower Elendil issues a challenge of personal combat to the Lord of the rings, he accepts, they go with Gilgalad to mt doom accompanied by elrond & isildur carrying their standards, Gilgalad and Elendil tag team Sauron, presumably Gil impales him with his spear while El hacks about with narsil - they mortally wound him but he manages to shove Elendil off a cliff and burns Gilgalad to death before passing out, which allows Isildur to approach and cut off the ring AND THEN he bails on his body but not necessarily because of the ring, probably it's his best option to fly away and patiently reform rather than risk being taken by the elves to be tossed thru the doors of night i don't think that the elves could have done that without the valar
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Jul 17, 2021 18:32
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ChubbyChecker posted:i don't think that the elves could have done that without the valar There's presumably regular voyages from the Grey Havens even in that era, so they could haul him to Eldamar at least.
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Jul 17, 2021 18:59
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Only thread I’d say this but “hale to valinor” would be more correct Not haul
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Jul 17, 2021 19:02
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It's interesting from a thematic perspective that the defining moment of that conflict is the resolution of the battle by it's survivors, not the heroic martial acts of the combatants.
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Jul 17, 2021 19:42
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euphronius posted:Only thread I’d say this but “hale to valinor” would be more correct I dunno, I'd interpret "hale" as meaning he has some volition at that point, and since he didn't have enough volition to stop a looter yoinking his jewellery I'm seeing him as dead weight. Though I may be conflating it with the "healthy" meaning.
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Jul 17, 2021 20:07
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Well poo poo, a new English thing to know
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Jul 17, 2021 20:20
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skasion posted:It does seem implied that even though he got “overthrown” by Gilgalad and Elendil, he could have gotten better if Isildur hadn’t chopped his finger. Is a fair bit different from just getting a lucky slice in on Sauron's finger and vanquishing him that way like the movies implied. I get why they did it though because doing it like that let them quickly move on to the main story rather than have to do some big fight set piece.
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Jul 18, 2021 02:47
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To be honest I like the movie's portrayal. I like the idea of it being this last desperate stroke that severs the ring from his hand, since it ties in with the eucatastrophe of gollums fall to me.
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Jul 18, 2021 05:00
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Runcible Cat posted:There's presumably regular voyages from the Grey Havens even in that era, so they could haul him to Eldamar at least. true CommonShore posted:It's interesting from a thematic perspective that the defining moment of that conflict is the resolution of the battle by it's survivors, not the heroic martial acts of the combatants. Ginette Reno posted:Is a fair bit different from just getting a lucky slice in on Sauron's finger and vanquishing him that way like the movies implied. it could have made for a nice action scene, so it was kinda strange that jackson didn't include it. but the main benefit from it was that it made isildur's role bigger, and the viewers didn't have to remember two extra characters who would only have showed in one scene
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Jul 18, 2021 15:17
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Apparently this is Gil-Galad and Elendil?  I have literally no memory of Jackson's Gil-Galad and only the most basic of Elendil (i.e. that he was onscreen a moment). That they're so foggy and hazy helps to set them up as figures of a distant past. The only thing that we get in any focus at all is Elrond's direct experience, which is apt I suppose because I think he's the one who narrates these scenes.
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Jul 18, 2021 15:36
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CommonShore posted:Apparently this is Gil-Galad and Elendil? In the prologue it's Galadriel, in Rivendell it's Elrond.
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Jul 18, 2021 15:38
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Actually Galadriel wasn't actually there, her account is probably based on what she saw in her mirror, which means the prologue is probably unreliable in some ways.
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Jul 18, 2021 15:41
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I'm probably due to rewatch the movies but I don't watch many movies anymore they'll have to get in line behind the next coming film in the extended Tolkein corpus this month https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS6ksY8xWCY Editing counts!  which is the only movie I've been excited for in loving years
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Jul 18, 2021 15:45
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"I have no memory of this face"
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Jul 18, 2021 15:46
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In the released editions of the film, Gil Galad is seen for about two seconds of shaky close up planting his spear in an Orc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj139dE7tFI At around 2:33 Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 16:00
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She would not have been using the mirror at that time . Assuming the mirror is partially ring powered. It’s the movie anyway
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Jul 18, 2021 16:22
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euphronius posted:She would not have been using the mirror at that time . Assuming the mirror is partially ring powered. It’s the movie anyway She's talking from the present, so she absolutely could have been using the mirror at that point.
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Jul 18, 2021 17:52
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ChubbyChecker posted:i don't think that the elves could have done that without the valar How sure of that would Sauron be though? He underestimated the severity of their response to numenor after all.
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Jul 18, 2021 17:55
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Elrond was there, Gandalf. He was there three thousand years ago and he was telepathically skyping me the whole time.
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Jul 18, 2021 18:26
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Blood Boils posted:How sure of that would Sauron be though? He underestimated the severity of their response to numenor after all. Sauron probably estimated correctly that he could lay low for a while and may have even thought something along the lines of 'if this Isildur guy is taking my Ring, then I can just slide in at Gondor, either he will have become a wraith or I will be able to tempt his heirs.' Or he might have just been insensate from his rear end-kicking completely.
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Jul 18, 2021 19:17
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As for why the film didn’t show Elendil and Gil Galad beating Sauron, I think it comes down to two things: 1) like some people have already said, that intro throws a lot of information at the viewer already. Adding two characters (or one and a half, since Elendil is there he’s just not the focus) adds a bunch of information that is frankly extraneous to the film’s narrative, and more importantly 2) in the directors’ commentary they are constantly talking about how difficult it was to portray Sauron as a serious threat, particularly in the first film. If the film opened with Sauron getting beaten by two randos (in the general audience’s eyes), the viewer would think the free peoples could beat Sauron in open combat even if he got the ring back. That’s why they portrayed Isildur’s victory as kind of a fluke.
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Jul 18, 2021 20:44
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There's a lot of weird poo poo that goes into trying to adapt something for a new medium like screen. It's super easy to forget It's also super easy for the ones doing it to get it wrong, or anticipate the wrong things being issues, and screwing up the whole premise because they thought something like "we have to hook the audience with a hilarious joke about the dolphins singing so long and thanks for all the fish as a full-scale broadway number over credits"
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Jul 18, 2021 20:58
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Data Graham posted:"we have to hook the audience with a hilarious joke about the dolphins singing so long and thanks for all the fish as a full-scale broadway number over credits" Jesus, thanks for reminding me of that
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Jul 18, 2021 21:04
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CommonShore posted:The ring is fully sentient and sapient, with full powers of logic and reason. The only reason that it stayed under the misty mountains for so long is that it was out of gas. it has opinions
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Jul 18, 2021 21:19
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Shibawanko posted:it has opinions It felt it shouldn't be the one that had to make the effort when Sauron was the one with arms and legs and armies. Sheesh. Dear Prudence, my wearer seems to think I'm the one who should do all the work in this relationship. I've been waiting in the roots of the mountains for a thousand years and he still hasn't shown up; should I make an effort to get back together?
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Jul 18, 2021 22:31
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Data Graham posted:There's a lot of weird poo poo that goes into trying to adapt something for a new medium like screen. It's super easy to forget lol, that was the exact moment that I decided I was really going to love that movie, I thought it was fantastic.
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Jul 19, 2021 03:40
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YaketySass posted:With the benefit of hindsight leaving Isildur to die for the sake of spending the next centuries buried in mud wasn't the best way of finding a useful bearer. What if there's just a whole bunch of supposedly lost stuff in the mud of the Gladden Fields? Maybe even a silmaril down there.
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Jul 19, 2021 07:40
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:What if there's just a whole bunch of supposedly lost stuff in the mud of the Gladden Fields? Maybe even a silmaril down there. The Elendilmir was there, at least.
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Jul 19, 2021 18:10
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So the Prancing Pony has accommodations for Hobbits and Dwarves, but I'm having difficulty finding much info about Hobbits actually living in Bree itself. Does Butterbur only keep those rooms for occasional travelers from Buckland?
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Jul 20, 2021 03:11
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Arcsquad12 posted:So the Prancing Pony has accommodations for Hobbits and Dwarves, but I'm having difficulty finding much info about Hobbits actually living in Bree itself. Does Butterbur only keep those rooms for occasional travelers from Buckland? No, there’s Bree hobbits. Frodo meets a bunch of the them in the common room where they are all innocently but inconveniently inquisitive, because they don’t get many travelers and are excited/worried about it.
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Jul 20, 2021 03:31
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skasion posted:No, there’s Bree hobbits. Frodo meets a bunch of the them in the common room where they are all innocently but inconveniently inquisitive, because they don’t get many travelers and are excited/worried about it. Oh I forgot about them. I just remember him making an rear end of himself and singing The Man In The Moon Stayed Up Too Late. So if Buckland is considered a colony by Shire standards, what would that make Bree hobbits? Strange outsiders and queer folk from the Big World?
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Jul 20, 2021 03:50
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Arcsquad12 posted:Oh I forgot about them. I just remember him making an rear end of himself and singing The Man In The Moon Stayed Up Too Late. So if Buckland is considered a colony by Shire standards, what would that make Bree hobbits? Strange outsiders and queer folk from the Big World? Sort of, but the Bree hobbits are very closely related to the Shire hobbits. In general they are treated less suspiciously than other outsiders, but moreso than most Shire hobbits or Bucklanders. Hell, most Hobbiton folks see Bucklanders as outsiders of a sort. That being said a Bree hobbit would likely get a fairly warm welcome in the Shire so long as they had some easily discernable business there.
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Jul 20, 2021 04:05
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skasion posted:No, there’s Bree hobbits. Frodo meets a bunch of the them in the common room where they are all innocently but inconveniently inquisitive, because they don’t get many travelers and are excited/worried about it. The fake name Underhill also gets them in hot water because there actually are Underhills in Bree and frodo has to play himself off as a long lost cousin.
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Jul 20, 2021 18:07
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Arcsquad12 posted:So the Prancing Pony has accommodations for Hobbits and Dwarves, but I'm having difficulty finding much info about Hobbits actually living in Bree itself. Does Butterbur only keep those rooms for occasional travelers from Buckland? Some of the staff in the PP were hobbits
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Jul 20, 2021 18:14
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They also mention that until recently it was pretty common for hobbits on the edge of the Shire to travel out to Bree for the day, leading to "Strange as news from Bree" being a Shire expression.
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Jul 20, 2021 18:47
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WoodrowSkillson posted:The fake name Underhill also gets them in hot water because there actually are Underhills in Bree and frodo has to play himself off as a long lost cousin. Ahh yes, the old "I'M from North Kilt Town" maneouvere
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Jul 20, 2021 22:43
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Look even Homer knew that there was no one in North Kilt-Town named Angus McLeod.
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Jul 20, 2021 23:14
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Hello, after reading the Iliad I'm in the mood for some other epics, and I'm looking at Beowulf. Is tolkien's version with commentary a good book to get? https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Christopher-Tolkien/dp/0544442784/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= I imagine it's not a good first read of the poem, but I understand Tolkien was an excelent scholar, so his commentary may be worth it. And for a first read, which translation would you recommend? Amazon links appreciated.
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Jul 21, 2021 04:34
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Seamus Heaney does a good job of communicating the original sound and feel of the poem if you read it in the original. Tolkiens commentary is great but from what I remember assumes you're reading in the original. It is possible to learn to read the original with a few dedicated weeks of work, it isn't as far off modern English as it first appears.
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Jul 21, 2021 04:38
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I wish I hadn't sold my Eng. Lit textbooks. They had a really good translation with some decent undergrad-level notes.
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Jul 21, 2021 05:04
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