|
FlamingLiberal posted:The only time Wolverine Origins' existence should be brought up is when Ryan Reynolds makes fun of it
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 04:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:13 |
|
|
God that CGI is so much worse than I remembered
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 04:43
|
|
|
The only version that should exist or be played is the workshop version
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 07:18
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Uhhh... not sure what Batman story you mean? Cuz Burton just did whatever the gently caress he wanted, Schumacher pulled origins from the comics but most did original takes, Nolan kinda pulled bits and pieces from Year One, Killing Joke, No Man's Land, Knightfall and others, and Snyder pulls from Dark Knight Returns... We had two films in a row that were heavily inspired by DKReturns, which are Dark Knight Rises (interestingly done) and BvS (badly done). They had other stuff sprinkled in but I would say Returns was a clear dominant influence on both.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 09:18
|
|
|
Karloff posted:We had two films in a row that were heavily inspired by DKReturns, which are Dark Knight Rises (interestingly done) and BvS (badly done). They had other stuff sprinkled in but I would say Returns was a clear dominant influence on both. ...other than the name and Bruce being semi-retired, I don't see it for Rises. There's way more No Man's Land and Knightfall in it
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 12:32
|
|
|
I think it is the idea of aging and physical degradation, which is a big part of Dark Knight Returns and Rises. In both we see a Batman struggling to contend with the physical demands of the job. The two fights against Bane in Rises also feel quite attune to the two fights against the Mutant Leader in Returns with the first fight being a loss because Batman tries to use a physical ferocity he is no longer capable of, and the second fight being a victory as Batman is more measured and strategic. There is of course, the coming out of retirement idea and also the idea of an ending where Batman finds a measure of catharsis by passing on his legacy to others despite starting the story suicidal in both. Rises also has some direct quotes from Returns with the two cop characters who witness Batman's return (as does BvS). BvS has plenty of Returns too, but I think it's more interested in visual iconography so it brings the mecha suit in, Batman has that bulky brick poo poo house look that he has in Returns etc, and of course the fight between Batman and Superman. But, also, both Rises and Returns position themselves as "the last Batman story", even accounting for Miller's sequels. It gives them a similar feel. BvS is very much positioning itself as the start of something, and ends on a cliffhanger with more Batman adventures promised. Karloff fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jul 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 13:03
|
|
|
Karloff posted:We had two films in a row that were heavily inspired by DKReturns, which are Dark Knight Rises (interestingly done) and BvS (badly done). They had other stuff sprinkled in but I would say Returns was a clear dominant influence on both. The main part of this i disagree with that hasn't been brought up is that there is anything that anyone could consider interesting in Dark Knight Rises, the third worst Batman movie.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 14:31
|
|
|
Codependent Poster posted:The only version that should exist or be played is the workshop version https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgbh7n Vince MechMahon posted:The main part of this i disagree with that hasn't been brought up is that there is anything that anyone could consider interesting in Dark Knight Rises, the third worst Batman movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLFAXvFYhsE
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 14:50
|
|
|
Ah man, I kind of really like it. It is certainly the weakest of the three Nolan films, but, I find Batman's mental health struggles moving and relatable. Bane, as above, is rad. And it is cool to get a definite ending out of one of these films, so you can say "yeah, that's done". There's plenty of flaws, it is the most uncomfortable with Batman as an aesthetic and he often just stands awkwardly in the frame, it's muddled politically and a bit misjudged. When I first saw it I was really underwhelmed, but it's grown on me over the years.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 15:19
|
|
|
I hate the politics of that movie so much (and the trilogy on the whole really) and there wasn't enough there beyond that I liked to get into it at all. Tom Hardy is hilarious in it, but I don't think that was the intent. It's the only one of them I've only watched twice, once in the theater and once when I got the 4k set more recently, and my opinion has not changed between them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 15:49
|
|
|
I watched Rises before I had my first political awakening and really understood and believed in ACAB and even then I was like, "this movie seems pretty fascist idk"
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 15:52
|
|
|
Arist posted:I watched Rises before I had my first political awakening and really understood and believed in ACAB and even then I was like, "this movie seems pretty fascist idk" 
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 16:14
|
|
|
Arist posted:I watched Rises before I had my first political awakening and really understood and believed in ACAB and even then I was like, "this movie seems pretty fascist idk" Dark Knight is too. Thematically it's a big, sloppy make out session about how the Patriot act was actually good. But at least it has ledger.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 16:20
|
|
|
TDK Rises isn't even as good as Forever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 16:30
|
|
|
The more time that passes since Dark Knight and Rises came out, the more I realize how fash they were. And not even in a Starship Troopers way, where it's clearly satirizing how stupid the philosophy is when you take it to it's logical conclusion. The movies have this very "hard men making the tough choices" style sheep/wolf/sheepdog Chris Kyle bullshit point of view girding the whole affair
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 16:37
|
|
|
My personal ranking of live action Batman films is Batman '66 Batman Returns Batman '89 Batman Begins The Dark Knight Batman Forever The Dark Knight Rises Batman and Robin I recently rewatched the first three from the '90s and thought Returns was clearly the best of the of the three even though I had never thought that previously. It holds up better than '89 in my opinion. Batman Forever does have the best soundtrack though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
Man, I'd much rather rewatch B&R than Rises, the former is only like twenty minutes longer than it should be after all, nothing compared to Rises
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
Neither Rises or Knight strike me as fash, but instead, very liberal centrism. I don't really buy that Knight is an uncritical defence of the patriot act though I know I'm an outlier in that regard. The film does have Freeman outright state in close-up "this is wrong", and ends with the machine being destroyed. The use of the machine is shown in the film as part of Bruce's corruption, so it is not saying this surveillance is definitely good and awesome. Plus, the three times a "hero" tortures someone in the film it achieves precisely nothing, and in fact makes things worse. BUT it does take a line of "in desperate times and in extraordinary circumstances... maybe" in terms of surveillance, and the Joker is only caught due to said surveillance. Even if the machine is destroyed afterwards, it still helped save the day. Like Rises which shows the rich as craven arseholes, but depicts "revolutionaries" as blood thirsty terrorists who the police need to get into line, Knight shows both sides but doesn't really settle on a coherent political answer, instead showing the heroes engaging in fashy adjacent behaviour while wagging its finger at it and saying "this is still bad though" (it is however spiritually and dramatically very consistent though that's another discussion).
Karloff fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Jul 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 17:01
|
|
|
Dark Knight is absolutely pro-PATRIOT Act. Freeman is a stand in for liberals who all loved and voted for it, because they're all also right wingers. The entire point of the film is that illegal, warrantless surveillance is actually good and works, and you shouldn't worry about it because the people in charge are pure and good and only have our best intentions in mind and would NEVER use it for anything other than going after Osama Bi.. The Joker. See, when they finished they got rid of it! Why can't you just true George Bush to do the same thing?
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
Karloff posted:Neither Rises or Knight strike me as fash, but instead, very liberal centrism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 17:21
|
|
|
The United States posted:And what happens to liberal centrism when it is threatened by, say, terrorists? Well, you're not wrong. But those films are still in that Liberal Centrist place of flirting with fascism, and not fully throated fascist propaganda imo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 17:25
|
|
|
Vince MechMahon posted:See, when they finished they got rid of it! Why can't you just true George Bush to do the same thing? I can see the Patriot adjacent stuff, but I always felt like Lucious' moral stance makes it go from "This is cool" to "a horrible, unconstitutional breech of ethics" in the film.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 17:27
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:It's legitimately destroyed and doesn't come up again in the next film. I think it would have been more apt a comparison if a part of it had been kept, or if Batman argued for it making his job easier? Yes, exactly! Batman did the right thing, so you should trust your leaders to do the same. This is a point in favor of it being propaganda, not against.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 17:30
|
|
|
Vince MechMahon posted:Yes, exactly! Batman did the right thing, so you should trust your leaders to do the same. Anyway we know that Zuck and Bezos are the real data miners.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 17:56
|
|
|
Trusting George Bush to use stuff like the Patriot Act only when it's needed to fight terrorism *is* liberal centrism. These movies essentially represent the post 9/11 US consensus of "we're pretty uncomfortable with a lot of this, but there's bad guys out there that makes this required, even if long term this will have negative consequences". Arguably Rises is the more radical movie in terms of positing a (semi-)return to the normal order.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jul 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 18:03
|
|
|
Like I said above, "hard men making the tough decisions" is a through line in the films, just as it was a constant in post 9/11 media like 24 and whatnot. Surveillance state proto-fash apologia was pretty ubiquitous in entertainment (and news and culture and politics and your lovely parents and neighbors and and). It was en vogue to espouse the belief that the complex modern world required that "good men" make "realistic" decisions in the face of the forces of Western-civ-dissolving evil like Joke-sama Bin Laughin'. You can't be reasonable when dealing with these unreasonable savages! And sure I guess wealth inequality is kinda bad, but isn't it WORSE how easily led all the poor idiots are? And don't you kind of agree those unwashed masses need a strong hand to guide them, since the second they get any power, they just eat and gently caress and destroy everything? And then no one has ANYTHING, which doesn't help anybody! Just trust that the technocratic elites are your betters, and they don't WANT to make these nasty decisions, you're just FORCING them to, and they'll put that power away as soon as you settle down, honest.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 18:19
|
|
|
Superheroes as a concept (and not just batman specifically) are inherently fascist in nature, if you guys havent noticed
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 18:30
|
|
|
Eh that take is overrated
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
I think you weaken your argument by adding in a bunch of stuff that isn't in the movie and ignoring several elements that run directly counter to it. EDIT: If you want to define fascism as any and all pushback on civil liberties in any context for any period of time by any mechanism, then okay, but CSPAM is down the corridor on your left ilikedirt posted:Superheroes as a concept (and not just batman specifically) are inherently fascist in nature, if you guys havent noticed This but all action movies Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jul 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 18:37
|
|
|
Like, when people say these Batman movies are fascist it's because they have scenes recreating the Patriot Act or where Batman teams up with the police to break up a people's revolution that's blatantly a reference to Occupy Wall Street. Going "Superheroes are inherently fascist because they're about imposing their will on other people!" is missing the point that the characters are largely fantasies about power and moral responsibility for children, in addition to being kind of a weak thesis to begin with. Fangz posted:This but all action movies Yeah, exactly, you could say this about pretty much anything, and then you're just that one joyless Twitter guy who calls everything people enjoy fascist.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
Arist posted:Like, when people say these Batman movies are fascist it's because they have scenes recreating the Patriot Act or where Batman teams up with the police to break up a people's revolution that's blatantly a reference to Occupy Wall Street. The imagery is definitely there (but the timeline in the latter case shows it to be a coincidence). I think in terms of the overall story though those takes tend to fall apart.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
I think the stronger thesis of "capes are a bit fash" is not that they impose their will, but that they are usually Ubermoensch who are canonically physically superior, which is coded as the moral superiority/authority to uncritically protect the status quo from upset, which is always characterized as bad. This is probably truer for older eras of comic, though still somewhat ahistorical (early Superman is a New Deal socialist), and I think it's a somewhat blinkered, boring, and unfair thesis, as it acts like this is a unique failure of superheroes. Almost all media created in an imperial society reflects the values of uncritically securing the right of top-down control unless it is intentionally making a point about how that's bad.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:05
|
|
|
People sure are using some really loose definitions of fascism herequote:I think the stronger thesis of "capes are a bit fash" is not that they impose their will, but that they are usually Ubermoensch who are canonically physically superior, which is coded as the moral superiority/authority to uncritically protect the status quo from upset, which is always characterized as bad. Captain America punching Hitler: Fascist Mein Kampf: Not fascist Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jul 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:10
|
|
|
Tbf that's what I would do, if Batman's going around bashing people up I'm taking a dive and going "good punch/batarang Batman, you got me good, no need for any more, I'm incapacitated. I've learnt my lesson and will spend the rest of my life doing good works".
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:12
|
|
|
X-O posted:My personal ranking of live action Batman films is I'm curious as to why '66 is top of the list, and Forever and B&R are all the way at the bottom.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:13
|
|
|
I haven't seen '66 to be fair, but the consensus on it seems to have pretty heavily shifted recently and people are really into it now e: it's like the reappraisal of Speed Racer, a fantastic loving movie
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
66 crafts jokes which are clever and good, whereas B&R just throws a bunch of stupid poo poo at the wall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
Yeah, all camp is not created equal and I like '66 and dislike Schumacher's.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:13 |
|
|
Can we at least agree that B&R's Bane is vastly superior to TDKR's Bane?
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2021 19:28
|
|