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Tibalt posted:The hilarious thing to me is the stuff that made Romero/his brand insufferable seem to be only indirectly related to why Diakatana bad. He had the hype winds at his back because Id made several of the best games in history in the 90's and it wasn't commonly understood by that many people who was responsible for what.
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Jul 26, 2021 18:27
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Puppy Time posted:I do not understand why you are responding this to a general point that did not mention a specific timeframe? excuse me sir my Ernest Cline novrls would disagree
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Jul 26, 2021 19:43
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https://twitter.com/BWHolland/status/1418427542025883651?s=20 Games Workshop
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Jul 27, 2021 03:30
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jfc just nakedly exploiting employees' love of the brand, huh
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Jul 27, 2021 03:41
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Funny. In my industry, companies don't post salaries because they want candidates to lowball themselves. 
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Jul 27, 2021 03:54
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Daikatana is bad, but Romero and the other folks at Ion Storm Dallas ended up inadvertently and repeatedly running interference for Ion Storm Austin by partying too hard with the Eidos suits whenever they crossed the pond to check on development, so to some degree we can thank Daikatana for Deus Ex being so good.
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Jul 27, 2021 05:00
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Also why thief is good.
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Jul 27, 2021 05:31
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The real unfortunate thing about Daikatana is that while Romero was in charge, he wasn't doing the main thing he is actually good at and known for, level/map design. He is the man who made Episode 1 of Doom (the best part) and his levels for Quake are also superb, taking full advantage of true 3D. Here he had to delegate that task because he was too busy being a rockstar, which is why so much of Daikatana's design is punishing and unfair and unpleasant.
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Jul 27, 2021 07:19
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Maxwell Lord posted:The real unfortunate thing about Daikatana is that while Romero was in charge, he wasn't doing the main thing he is actually good at and known for, level/map design. He is the man who made Episode 1 of Doom (the best part) and his levels for Quake are also superb, taking full advantage of true 3D. Here he had to delegate that task because he was too busy being a rockstar, which is why so much of Daikatana's design is punishing and unfair and unpleasant. Auteur theory in game design makes even less sense than it does in film. And the people you could argue are, get to that level of fame usually do something really simple (Shigeru Miyamoto telling people that having canon/storyline in his games are stupid, and also that they (games) should be immediately approachable to everyone of all ages) or they more or less do their own PR because they really wish they could work in film (Kojima, Druckmann). It's a shame that Todd Howard gets poo poo on so hard for releasing buggy games since by all accounts he treats the people he outranks very well, is nice to everyone, and doesn't abuse his team at all. They do crunch time, but unlike the overwhelming majority of game development teams, his doesnt lose 90% of its workforce from depression/stress/anxiety/other mental illnesses related to exhaustion and abusive work environments after they ship a product. Most of the people that shipped Morrowind are still there. But you know, my guy clipped through a floor every 15-20 hours so gently caress Bethesda, and especially gently caress Todd. 
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Jul 27, 2021 09:20
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https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1419634371087282177 https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1419704647967719432
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Jul 27, 2021 10:18
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Given how often their boxed games get partsed out for resale, that manager wasn't exactly wrong.
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Jul 27, 2021 10:44
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moths posted:Given how often their boxed games get partsed out for resale, that manager wasn't exactly wrong. I mean maybe he's onto something but goddamn, I've been accused of being overly cynical before for suggesting that you could sell a deliberately half-assed game as long as the pictures are pretty enough, and here GW is just literally telling their designers "yeah don't put too much effort into this." e; to be abundantly clear, the much bigger issue here is still that GW is ludicrously underpaying their employees.
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Jul 27, 2021 10:54
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Auteur theory in game design makes even less sense than it does in film. back in the day one person actually could create levels all by themselves, Romero getting credit for that is actually ok
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Jul 27, 2021 11:13
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Kai Tave posted:I mean maybe he's onto something but goddamn, I've been accused of being overly cynical before for suggesting that you could sell a deliberately half-assed game as long as the pictures are pretty enough, and here GW is just literally telling their designers "yeah don't put too much effort into this." Yeah, people are so transfixed by the aesthetic that they really will buy a lot of trash just because of the aesthetic and the meme poo poo of their brands.
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Jul 27, 2021 11:29
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:But you know, my guy clipped through a floor every 15-20 hours so gently caress Bethesda, and especially gently caress Todd. Bethesda only "lightly crunching" employees and still releasing incomplete messes like Fallout 76, as well as antics like loving Obsidian every step of the way on Fallout New Vegas' development and refusing them bonuses after it all because the metacritic score wasn'th high enough, and the heavy pressure they put on their satellite studios to release cynically monetized games like Wolfenstein: New Blood, can all be bullshit things even if we haven't heard any reports of widespread abuse, racism, or misogyny from the studio. The Todd Howard thing is just a meme because he's a carnival hypeman and he kind of sounds like a discarded muppet experiment.
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Jul 27, 2021 14:02
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Nuns with Guns posted:Bethesda only "lightly crunching" employees and still releasing incomplete messes like Fallout 76, as well as antics like loving Obsidian every step of the way on Fallout New Vegas' development and refusing them bonuses after it all because the metacritic score wasn'th high enough, and the heavy pressure they put on their satellite studios to release cynically monetized games like Wolfenstein: New Blood, can all be bullshit things even if we haven't heard any reports of widespread abuse, racism, or misogyny from the studio. The Todd Howard thing is just a meme because he's a carnival hypeman and he kind of sounds like a discarded muppet experiment. to add to this, Fallout 76 was incredibly, disgustingly monetized https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjyeCdd-dl8
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Jul 27, 2021 14:13
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Pseudoscorpion posted:Daikatana is bad, but Romero and the other folks at Ion Storm Dallas ended up inadvertently and repeatedly running interference for Ion Storm Austin by partying too hard with the Eidos suits whenever they crossed the pond to check on development, so to some degree we can thank Daikatana for Deus Ex being so good. Then they should have partied even harder so we could have gotten more Anarchronox. 
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Jul 27, 2021 14:20
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TG As An Industry: Daikatana was bad, Fallout 76 was monetized
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Jul 27, 2021 14:24
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There is a fundamental difference between making bad or buggy games and treating the literal human beings that work on those games like utter poo poo, for 8 months of 80 hours of work. Or worse stuff like what's going on at ActiBliz(which wouldn't shock me to be happening at Beth of course but no reports on it yet) I'm loathe to defend Bethesda. But I've got one post in me. The metacritic thing wasn't an uncommon metric in the industry for bonuses and the like. It was loving trash, but also it wasn't a surprise as it's in a contract. This does suck tho. That aside the monetization in Youngblood is absurdly light, it's literally nothing but cosmetic skins and stuff. And from what I played there is pretty much no pressure during gameplay to actually buy anything. It's such a big nothing. F76 was a bad game with bad monetization, it has apperantly gotten better about both, but yeah it was going after GTAV money which was king poo poo of hillariously exploitative monetization island. Other than that, releasing bad or buggy games sucks as I guess as I'd prefer things to be good, but in the halls of things I care about in game development it barely ranks for me, compared to what goes on elsewhere in the industry. I can simply just not buy or play the bad game with systems I don't enjoy.
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Jul 27, 2021 14:43
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Dexo posted:
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Jul 27, 2021 15:39
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Dexo posted:Other than that, releasing bad or buggy games sucks as I guess as I'd prefer things to be good, but in the halls of things I care about in game development it barely ranks for me, compared to what goes on elsewhere in the industry. I don't see a point in debating things you're already admitting are exploitative crap practices but Youngblood's gameplay gets pretty slow near the end when everything is a bullet sponge because it wants you to grind and replay the game as a constant live service. Or buy the XP and ammo boosters. It's a multilayered crap industry and I don't think we need to stop to applaud one game studio for not reaching disgusting sub-basement lows of human decency and managing a D average instead. Things can be (and are) a whole spectrum of sucky and people are still being treated like poo poo. It's stupid to go "Well, at least this one AAA studio is only on the 77th layer of the Abyss, and not the 666th" when it's still Tanar'ri all the way down. There, I made a D&D metaphor.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:47
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issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding the yugoloth residents of the Gray Waste of Hades. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"
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Jul 27, 2021 15:54
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Kai Tave posted:I've been accused of being overly cynical before for suggesting that you could sell a deliberately half-assed game as long as the pictures are pretty enough,
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Jul 27, 2021 15:56
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Dawgstar posted:Then they should have partied even harder so we could have gotten more Anarchronox. If only the world could be so good
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Jul 27, 2021 15:57
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I think it's a bit of a different situation when it comes to minis, because there are lots of people who are just looking for cool sculpts to use for some other game , or just to paint and display. For them, the minis are the product, and any rules attached are a surprise bonus at best and irrelevant at worst.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:58
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Tsilkani posted:I think it's a bit of a different situation when it comes to minis, because there are lots of people who are just looking for cool sculpts to use for some other game , or just to paint and display. For them, the minis are the product, and any rules attached are a surprise bonus at best and irrelevant at worst. Also, you're basically repeating the cynical position Games Workshop is being criticized for and saying that's justification. If you accept your games are not gonna be great and are just excuses to sell minis... why not stop making games and just focus on selling minis?
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Jul 27, 2021 16:06
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JMBosch posted:What makes buying a poo poo game for the minis that you like painting and playing with different from buying a poo poo videogame for the aesthetic dress-em-up accessories you can use to make your character or their base or whatever look how you like? You can take a mini you like from one game, and seamlessly use it in another game, or just display it for all to see. It's a bit trickier with video game characters.
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Jul 27, 2021 16:07
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Bethesda absolutely has dysfunction. It may not be the same kind of dysfunction we're hearing about elsewhere, but they're no shining city on the hill.
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Jul 27, 2021 17:22
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Not only do you not have to defend studios that crunch, you honestly just shouldn't. It's still horrendous labor practice even if it's not as bad as other studios.JMBosch posted:What makes buying a poo poo game for the minis that you like painting and playing with different from buying a poo poo videogame for the aesthetic dress-em-up accessories you can use to make your character or their base or whatever look how you like? You don't have to play the trash game to enjoy the models. People enjoy building, painting, and displaying models just for the sake of it. That is not the case for a terrible video game with good aesthetics.
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Jul 27, 2021 18:16
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people play or buy poo poo for any number of reasons. None of them really matter, as releasing something bad isn't really some moral failing. I've bought Tabletop books and games I don't think are very good for the pretty art in a book. I've played Video games that aren't Good™ because they've had some hook or something in them that I've enjoyed and found value in playing.
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Jul 27, 2021 18:42
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TG as an Industry: Video games! 
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Jul 27, 2021 18:42
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Dexo posted:people play or buy poo poo for any number of reasons. None of them really matter, as releasing something bad isn't really some moral failing. Nobody is talking about studios releasing bad or buggy games being a moral failing. Even if you thought that was exclusively what I meant when I brought up Fallout 76, it's not. The crunch to string together the busted game, the exploitative monetization, and the misleading advertising of the product are all substantially greater sins there. And heck, CDPR came along and overshadowed a lot of that by magnitudes with Cyberpunk 2077, but that doesn't mean Bethesda are uplifted by comparison.
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Jul 27, 2021 18:51
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That post wasn't about Bethsada, infact in my post I specifically stated I've got one post defending Bethsada in me, and that was it. So carry on. That post you quoted was more about Mini's or other reasons people might buy or play games that most people don't like or that are Bad™.
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Jul 27, 2021 18:55
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https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1420008704494161921
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Jul 27, 2021 19:01
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JMBosch posted:Isn't this just the straight business model of so, so many boardgame Kickstarters with minis? I mean, the smaller and more independent creators probably believe their own hype a lot more, but it is rare for there to be an even halfway decent game under all that plastic. I think it's that and the kickstarter launch model doesn't provide a great deal of time or incentive to make sure your rules are well designed and tested. You're basically selling pre-orders for a product that will only print and ship if it receives enough pre-orders, so it's gotta sell on its initial aesthetic appeal rather than its mechanical depth or replayability.
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Jul 27, 2021 19:01
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What is £20,000pa in USD adjusted for having UHS? edit: lumping rough per-capita health spending in UK onto that pay its like 34K USD per year for a GW game designer. Paolomania fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 19:01
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wow, £2.28 each!
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Jul 27, 2021 19:39
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Cat Face Joe posted:wow, £2.28 each! 5000 each, actually. Not that GW doesn’t have a ton of other labor problems, though.
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Jul 27, 2021 19:45
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This really puts into perspective Age of Sigmar originally shipping with only the bare minimum ruleset to bash a bunch of models together on a tabletop while making sword clashing noises.
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Jul 27, 2021 19:59
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I think we can separate "GW underpays people" from "GW doesn't care about its rules" because I'm guessing they underpay everyone, not just rules writers, and their attention to rules has improved significantly over the last couple of years, but I would assume not because they decided to start paying people more.
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Jul 27, 2021 20:04
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