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SyntheticPolygon posted:Those are some big what ifs. I don't really see why Class VII would choose to fight the Ironbloods in that moment. Yeah Osborne is a lovely evil war hawk politician that sucks rear end but at the time he's just resuming his role as chancellor and gloating about his biggest political opposition has been removed. Much like how Olivert and company never made a move against him prior to the civil war I don't think they'd move against him now. Politically and legally he's not done anything wrong. Well, I said "capture" for a reason. You're right, I don't see them trying to assassinate him either. And my reasoning is that a living Crow would have started something before there was much time to think about it. But maybe not! Maybe things go very similarly, but... again, I doubt it. And is it a coup when its backed by the imperial family? Why is Osborne the one guy that's not considered throwing a coup? HOW is what Osborne did not a coup? Remember, the Noble faction are the ones who are pushing status quo to begin with; Osborne's reaction to Crossbell is a huge overreach of power, and he's largely relying on fear and confusion in the empire to ram a war through the teeth of his political opponents. There's nuance in here, and I don't think Class VII is given enough credit for having fought a drat good fight as a legitimate third power. ANY power coming out of the civil war was a restructuring of the government's power. You can look at it as three different parties attempting their own coup, or you can look at it as there being no coups because it's a civil war, and the entire reason for fighting is to establish a cohesive government.
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Jul 27, 2021 06:32
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CS2 I think the complaint is that people are struggling to differentiate between Olivier's Crimson Wings, and the Imperial Army. At no point during the civil war do the Crimson Wings come into conflict with the Imperial Army, nor do they have any reason to suspect that helping the Imperial Army win might be disastrous. To use the Zeta Gundam analogy: the AEUG (protagonist faction, has just 2 ships) is fighting against the Titans (antagonists, have an entire fleet of ships). The odds of AEUG alone overcoming the Titans are grim. There is also another anti-Titans faction called Axis, and they too have a fleet. Naturally, AEUG considers allying with Axis against the Titans. There is a naysayer among AEUG - a former member of Axis - who has suspicions about Axis' true motivations and warns against this alliance, but he is overruled due to the necessity of more forces. Because the audience trusts this naysayer character, the audience views Axis with suspicion. Once the Titans' leadership are eliminated, the naysayer's worst fears are realized as Axis then begins to proceed to try to take over unopposed. Another example is the Sunrider games, where the heroes are a lone ship fighting against PACT. The heroes wind up having to ally with the other superpower, the Alliance. The game does a good job balancing between keeping the Alliance heroic enough that the player wants to believe in them, but also keeping the Alliance self centered and ruthless enough that the player also has the seeds of mistrust in their mind. The difference is - as Veryslightlymad pointed out - in CS2, the Crimson Wings (and, by extension, the audience) have no reason to assume that the Imperial Army will turn bad before the reveal happens, no reason to mistrust them. At the start of act 2, we explicitly get setup for Osborne's return, but it's unclear to this audience if this is a bad thing. You might only view Osborne extremely negatively if you have played prior games in which he tried to invade the protagonist's country (thus alienating him to the audience), but CS1+2 makes little effort to alienate Osborne to the audience before the reveal happens. Crow's and Scarlet's backstories are sympathetic, and his powergrabs some a little unjust, but Rean was not a victim of Osborne so the audience doesn't feel particularly alienated by him. Even if you have played prior games, it might be unclear how his return is a bad thing. Would he still be in power? Wouldn't people question how he survived and ask themselves if he is an imposter? Where was he for the 3 months that the Civil War was waging? There are a lot of questions that make it so that even if he does come back, him taking the reins is not guaranteed. Would the royal family, the emperor, and the military just allow him to come back and let him run things like nothing happened? We also know Regnitz, Craig, and Zechs are good men, so the audience feels safe with allowing them to win. If the Imperial Army was treated as more grey (ie, there is a general who is not very nice, and does stuff like having his troops confiscate people's food and property, he wants to brutally punish the people of the Noble Alliance (maybe he burns towns), or he draws up plans to attack other countries), then there would be cause for the Crimson Wings to second guess helping the Imperial Army win the war, suspecting what might happen after the NA are defeated. Moofia Boss Val fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 06:35
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MythosDragon posted:Huh, looked it up, youre right. I've been bamboozled by my own need to 100% the stupid PC game. Good to know. I kinda started playing through Azure a second time and noticed the added scene is all. Revealing Yin early was interesting on Falcom's part but it was already kind of spoiled for me once you see the sword after playing CS 1+2 first.
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Jul 27, 2021 06:38
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Sorry to hijack the thread but I just finished Cold Steel 3 and that was uhh... an ending I suppose? CS3 Spoilers and Questions I'm guessing it'll be explained in CS4 but are the Ironbloods under some type of mind control or something? Their weird eyes and stuff? Why are all the villains shocked when they blow up the airship? Their body count is probably in the thousands for each one of them. Probably some honor bullshit. The endless loyalty of Ouroboros and Ironbloods confuses me so much with this lovely Twilight plan. I'm honestly surprised Vita defected. Why did Ouroboros and Ironbloods have conflict earlier if they were going to have the same goal anyways? Were they actually trying to control the Holy Beast? I'm guessing everything went accordingly to plan for Osborne anyways in the end with either Rean or the Prince killing the beast. I probably missed some of these answers but I'm pretty tired now.
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Jul 27, 2021 06:48
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poe meater posted:Why are all the villains shocked when they blow up the airship? Their body count is probably in the thousands for each one of them. Probably some honor bullshit. CS3 Egregious double standards. Crow still being well regarded by Class VII was somewhat understandable in that he killed a guy nobody really liked and didn't harm anyone Class VII cared about, but in the final chapter of CS3, Class VII treats Duvalie and McBurn as their cool frenemies when earlier in the game Duvalie tried massacring the students and McBurn was bombarding a densely populated city.
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Jul 27, 2021 06:53
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You'll kind of just be better of jumping straight into CSIV because any answer will just be a big spoiler for your questions. At least you don't have to wait the 2 years or so it took for it to get westernized. Yeah Rean was pretty screwed either way.
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Jul 27, 2021 06:54
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Veryslightlymad posted:Well, I said "capture" for a reason. You're right, I don't see them trying to assassinate him either. And my reasoning is that a living Crow would have started something before there was much time to think about it. But maybe not! Maybe things go very similarly, but... again, I doubt it. What did he do that is coup-like? I don't know what you're arguing here. Yeah he's evil and we all hate him but he's been evil for years and if that's all it took then Olivert would have made some moves to capture him or whatever by now. The Civil War just wasn't an opportunity to deal with Osborne. With his biggest political rival revealing himself as a huge evil tyrannical bastard Osborne and the reformist faction were just kinda in the clear from the get go assuming the Noble Alliance gets dealt with. I don't think Class VII failed to deal with Osborne, this just wasn't a battlefield where they could. Also, I've seen posts in this thread before about how Cold Steel doesn't properly portray Osborne as that bad a dude and I don't really get it. CS1 was my first Trails game and Osborne's a really easy guy to hate. He's a big military expansionist bastard that loves imperialism. He kinda sucks. The reformist party isn't treated as negatively as the Noble Alliance but Osborne himself seems really goddamn evil from the get go.
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Jul 27, 2021 06:55
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Osborne sucks serious poo poo I will not elaborate further
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Jul 27, 2021 07:59
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He was going to unilaterally declare war without the approval of the Imperial Senate, relying on the fear of the people to give him this legitimacy as opposed to any codified powers he actually had. Then he resumed control, had his opponents thrown out, and began ramming his reforms through now that he had no opposition. The power Osborne had afterward is by no means the power that he had previously. That is a coup. People already in power can still lead a coup if they get more power. He's not the supreme leader of Erebonia but he acts like he is and dares someone to tell him differently. Crow's assassination of Osborne is ironically easier for Crow to weasel out of with the reveal that Osborne didn't die. Moofia Boss Val posted:CS3 Egregious double standards. Crow still being well regarded by Class VII was somewhat understandable in that he killed a guy nobody really liked and didn't harm anyone Class VII cared about, but in the final chapter of CS3, Class VII treats Duvalie and McBurn as their cool frenemies when earlier in the game Duvalie tried massacring the students and McBurn was bombarding a densely populated city. This both misinterprets what happens during the attack against the Branch Campus and conflates Duvalie's actions against the Students with Shirley's. There's reason to believe Duvalie would have accepted an escape or surrender there. Her own words were "put you in your place", which isn't usually "the ground". The attacks the two made were against the Branch Campus materiel, which the students took up arms to protect. Of the two attackers, Shirley is the one that lost her professionalism and went berserk. And even while berserking, she still attacked the train. Duvalie is also the one that managed to call Shirley off from causing further damage rather than amping up the lethality when the fight became more serious. What scene are you referring to where they're friendly with both? When they fight McBurn, he's with Arianrhod, not Duvalie, and the person the party is addressing in a "frenemy" matter is Arianrhod, not McBurn. And that's because they perceive her to have honor.
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Jul 27, 2021 08:18
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Shinjobi posted:Osborne sucks serious poo poo I don't think you need to. It's pretty clear.
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Jul 27, 2021 08:21
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Osborne is the kind of dude who farts in an elevator and doesn't apologize for it. It's just this time the elevator is an entire nation.
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Jul 27, 2021 10:33
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infraboy posted:I do enjoy the stankface facial expressions of the older games, especially Elie and Tio, even better when you add the evo voices.
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Jul 27, 2021 10:50
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Endorph posted:I do miss the character face sprites and wish the newer games had them, but at the same time with how many characters are in the cold steel games it'd be a pretty tall ask for everyone relevant to get them, and it'd be weird if people didn't. You already got weird stuff like Duvalie not having a face sprite in the Crossbell games - even if she's irrelevant in those games she's a major enough character to the series it's mildly jarring. Given that Duvalie had like 5 lines in the entire game, it'd be weird if she did get a portrait while characters like Reins, Lau, the Crossbellan Bracer quartet or Donovan and Raymond did not. I do enjoy the fact that Duvalie was merely a faceless elite mook you met, beat and then never saw again until the Cold Steel arc where she came into her own.
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Jul 27, 2021 11:29
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Osborne's super cool and super threatening from the getgo. Unless you play in order and meet him in TC first, man looks like a sesame street doll with leukemia in TC. Make sure to get terrified of him elsewhere first and come back to make Leukemia jokes after.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:31
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Osborne is great until CS4 completely and utterly ruins him in every possible way besides having a good boss song.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:50
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Guess who beat the final boss of Sky FC by poking it to death with Kloe's rapier because everyone else was dead 
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Jul 27, 2021 16:13
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RevolverDivider posted:Osborne is great until CS4 completely and utterly ruins him in every possible way besides having a good boss song. Sucks serious poo poo
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Jul 27, 2021 16:37
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I laughed at jingo's voice in cs 3 and I laughed again in the intro of cs4. Some of the returning character designs are ridiculous lol. poe meater fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 17:19
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Ibblebibble posted:Guess who beat the final boss of Sky FC by poking it to death with Kloe's rapier because everyone else was dead Estelle may be Bestelle, but Kloe is a pretty close second. Well, third overall, but that's a conversation for much later.
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Jul 27, 2021 18:01
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  Crossbell peaked, we can all go home.
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Jul 27, 2021 20:26
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Cold Steel 2 already ruined Osborne with that lame poo poo he pulled at the end. Which is a shame he was my second favorite villian up till that point
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Jul 27, 2021 20:33
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Also, I've seen posts in this thread before about how Cold Steel doesn't properly portray Osborne as that bad a dude and I don't really get it. CS1 was my first Trails game and Osborne's a really easy guy to hate. He's a big military expansionist bastard that loves imperialism. He kinda sucks. The reformist party isn't treated as negatively as the Noble Alliance but Osborne himself seems really goddamn evil from the get go. I think this is kind of tied up in the issues people have mentioned having with Class VII not really seeming like they're doing a credible third way thing through CS2. I can't really comment on that part of it since I skipped 2 entirely, but at least in CS1 Osborne comes across as, like, generic vague-menacing while the Noble Alliance is presented as the least likeable group in history and then they step on the accelerator all the way through. So at first glance you've got a country that's been stuck in a garbage system run by garbage people forever, and there's only one guy doing anything about it. His approach obviously sucks from the perspective of any other country, but when he's presented as the only alternative to Cayenne and Albarea I start feeling more sympathetic. The ILF, who should have been an opportunity to show that his policies were actually bad and had serious consequences, suck so incredibly bad. Like the first tragic backstory you hear out of them is "we were hired by the least likeable people in the country to murder him and instead he hosed us up." I'm most of the way to rooting for him after that encounter. His character only gets worse from there on all fronts, obviously.
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Jul 27, 2021 22:24
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MythosDragon posted:
Lol
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Jul 27, 2021 22:31
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Eh I think it’s unfair to call him generic. He is literally anime Otto Von Bismark. Which is a cool idea
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Jul 27, 2021 22:37
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Peak Osborne is his stuff in Azure IMO since are from the perspective of people that very blatantly believe that he intends to invade/annex their home but you also can't help but feel a sort of logic from the way he phrases and contextualizes various world events. It makes it feel like what he represents is something larger than just a single man and his ambitions.
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Jul 27, 2021 22:39
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Irony.or.Death posted:I think this is kind of tied up in the issues people have mentioned having with Class VII not really seeming like they're doing a credible third way thing through CS2. I can't really comment on that part of it since I skipped 2 entirely, but at least in CS1 Osborne comes across as, like, generic vague-menacing while the Noble Alliance is presented as the least likeable group in history and then they step on the accelerator all the way through. So at first glance you've got a country that's been stuck in a garbage system run by garbage people forever, and there's only one guy doing anything about it. His approach obviously sucks from the perspective of any other country, but when he's presented as the only alternative to Cayenne and Albarea I start feeling more sympathetic. Obviously the Noble Alliance are way worse because they're all cartoonishly evil while Osborne is 'just' way into military expansion and imperialism. But in CS1 I never got the feeling of "y'know maybe Osborne's ok", it was more like "drat, Erebonia's 2 major political factions are the military expansionsists and the evil noblity. They both suck." I mean, it's Osborne's faction that have the intercontinetal death cannons that threaten the sovereignity of neighboring states with there mere existence. He's an evil dude in a more real way than most.
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Jul 27, 2021 22:49
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I mean there is a reason Osborne is taken out of the picture for most of two. There are a clear good and bad faction there
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Jul 27, 2021 22:51
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Obviously the Noble Alliance are way worse because they're all cartoonishly evil while Osborne is 'just' way into military expansion and imperialism. But in CS1 I never got the feeling of "y'know maybe Osborne's ok", it was more like "drat, Erebonia's 2 major political factions are the military expansionsists and the evil noblity. They both suck." I mean, it's Osborne's faction that have the intercontinetal death cannons that threaten the sovereignity of neighboring states with there mere existence. He's an evil dude in a more real way than most. The Nobles are perfectly happy with the military expansionism as well, though some are probably less competent at it. As they show by doing a bunch together with Osborne in between CS2 and CS3. (Not so happy about resulting areas being directly ruled by the state, though)
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Jul 27, 2021 23:07
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Osborne as a villain/antagonist had a ton of potential built up from the beginning. That potential is flushed down a big stinky toilet. He sucks poo poo. This is the official last statement I shall make on the man. I miss goofin around with Olivier.
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Jul 27, 2021 23:13
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People, have you considered that you don't have problems with Osborne, but you have problems with Ishmelga?
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Jul 27, 2021 23:18
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He's loving terrible in CS4 even without including that awful waste of a character in the mix.
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Jul 27, 2021 23:19
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It really depresses me that Sky 3rd and Crossbell only exist because Falcom wanted to give more context to the world before they dove into the Erebonia arc, which is the story they really wanted to tell.
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Jul 27, 2021 23:33
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Well the good news is now it’s out of their system so things might improve
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Jul 27, 2021 23:35
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I think they probably wanted to tell the stories of the other games as well tbh.
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Jul 27, 2021 23:46
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Shinjobi posted:I miss goofin around with Olivier. hell yeah
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Jul 27, 2021 23:48
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I'm not treating Osborne as an evil dude, I'm treating him as a big dude with political, military, and personal strength who's very presence intimidates others. He's the most inherently threatening dude in the series. And he excels at that in every appearance but TC.
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Jul 27, 2021 23:59
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Which one is TC?
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Jul 28, 2021 00:20
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Third Chapter, presumably.
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Jul 28, 2021 00:23
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Third chapter is where he is at his best. I wish he was like that in cold steel and it was one of the few doors I liked
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Jul 28, 2021 00:25
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Also Some Numbers posted:It really depresses me that Sky 3rd and Crossbell only exist because Falcom wanted to give more context to the world before they dove into the Erebonia arc, which is the story they really wanted to tell. not really? It's a series with both individual stories and threads meant to continue or be explored in later games. It's like saying SC only exists to tell Renne's story in 3rd and Zero (valid) or that Erebonia itself only exists to set up Kuro.
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Jul 28, 2021 00:25
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