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IIRC, it was a tip Troughton gave to Davidson when they met once. So if it's all one story, does that mean that Chibnall is writing every episode? I know Broadchurch was very well received, but that model doesn't work for all shows, and he should really delegate more. Also, needs more horror! Doctor Who is meant to be a bit creepy, a little scary, you know? I doubt kids are hiding behind the sofas at anything from the current run. The Haunting of Villa Diodati is the only one from last series that felt close, but Doctor Who and gothic horror go really well together in general.
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Jul 26, 2021 18:19
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OldMemes posted:IIRC, it was a tip Troughton gave to Davidson when they met once. Maxine Alderton (The Haunting of Villa Diodati) and Ed Hime (It Takes You Away and Orphan 55) are both writing for series 13. From the sound of it, Alderton may be writing multiple episodes or helping write the overall story.
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Jul 26, 2021 23:39
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Orphan 55 wasn't very good from memory (in that I barely remember it) but It Takes You Away was loving incredible, so I'm excited for more of that from Ed Hime.
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Jul 27, 2021 02:05
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Khanstant posted:Doctor Who is great as a flawed godlike figures whose reputation and high charisma score are their greatest weapons. Just some semi-immortal alien person who got a time travelling spaceship and just go around the universe doing random acts of mostly good. First off, the word "just" is doing a lot of work there. If the Doctor didn't know about her origin, and if her power to regenerate is no more special than any Time Lord's except that she doesn't need any help to regenerate past the limit (which, as has been repeatedly suggested, appears to be an artificial one), then how does that change anything else about her? Also, calling the Doctor "exceptionally-empathetic" seems suspect given what we saw from Twelve, not to mention several previous Doctors. (I wouldn't call One or Three exceptionally empathetic, for example.) Seven's last two seasons established him as "more than just a Time Lord" and made him considerably more godlike than Thirteen has ever been allowed to be. Ten, and especially Eleven, seemed to have played out the "reputation" thread of the show enough to last for some time yet ("look me up" was brilliant in the moment, but it doesn't work for an every week thing), although Twelve still had some of that. I can understand the arguments about the Doctor's "born special" status, although "born an alien" or "born a Time Lord" has sometimes mattered and sometimes not. Fan favorite City of Death makes a big deal about how Time Lords are special, and as far as we knew at the time, that was a genetic thing, not a learned skill. The only thing we know about the Doctor as the Timeless Child at this point is what we saw in a single episode, coming from an unreliable source. For all we know, she was hurled back in time and space to be discovered by the people who would become Time Lords from the far future, where she was genetically altered or engineered. There is, as yet, zero evidence that she was a member of a species capable of doing the same things, and some evidence to suggest otherwise (because what happened to all these other beings who CANNOT DIE?). Harry Potter was cringeworthy, because besides his special magic powers being partly associated with his blood, it seems like his goodness was also inherited, given that his nasty aunt and uncle raised him and not his parents. He inherited heaps of money from his folks, and his fame is due to something his mother did, not him. Perhaps by the end of the series, he's "earned" his special status, but even then, he hasn't really worked all that seriously through most of the books. That's a mixture of "providence" and "character is nice because the author says so." The Doctor is still the Doctor even if her origins are different than we first thought. Everything she knows about the universe, about people, all the choices and decisions she's made, it's all either a matter of who she is as a person, independent of this past she was unaware of, or a consequence of the physiological characteristics common to all Time Lords, with the possible exception of Eleven's regeneration (which might have been impossible if not for this retcon'ed reason, though obviously it wasn't). Blind Azathoth posted:Maxine Alderton (The Haunting of Villa Diodati) and Ed Hime (It Takes You Away and Orphan 55) are both writing for series 13. From the sound of it, Alderton may be writing multiple episodes or helping write the overall story. I find that very encouraging. Orphan 55 didn't actually work in execution, but the concept was brilliant and I feel like the biggest problem was the pacing of the story, which was also an issue with It Takes You Away. And the only bit of Villa Diodati that I found in any way problematic would have been the insertion from the larger plot; in theme and atmosphere, it was a great haunted house story.
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Jul 27, 2021 03:44
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One of my favorite things about the 1st Doctor (the original, you might say!) is that he learned to be more "human" as a result of his exposure to Ian and Barbara. The greater part of that of course comes down to a pure matter of expediency in the writing when William Russell and Jacqueline Hill left the show: they had been the moral compass for the show while the Doctor was initially more hostile, and with Susan also gone the decision was made to put more of the focus on the Doctor being the "good person", though there are still frequent elements of Steven having to force the Doctor to do what he felt was the right thing. But it worked in terms of character development as well, the Doctor went from largely looking down on humans as beneath his notice (he's better than the other Time Lords but still considers himself a higher/more advanced form of life) and only really caring about himself and Susan. The idea of an otherwise normal character who met humans, learned from them, developed into a better person and eventually became a driving force for the betterment of the overall universe as a result is a hell of a lot more compelling to me than the Doctor being born/created as some super-special driving force behind the creation of the Time Lords and the source of their regeneration capabilities. That stupid Looms/Other bullshit that Andrew Cartmel (who was a good script editor!) suggested but thankfully never put into place during the 7th Doctor's era was awful too, and the sooner this Timeless Child nonsense gets discarded or revealed as the con it was and we never have to think about it again, the better. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 08:29
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Chibnall went on British TV during the C. Baker era and basically slagged it off, so I don't feel a bit sorry for him that people are now saying his own run on the show has been largely terrible Of all the things that Chibnall has done, this is really not a huge deal. Besides, wasn't he a teenager at the time? They aren't exactly known for the nuance in their takes. That said, "Chibnall's run is terrible" is just... an opinion on the internet. Probably not nice to read for Chibnall, but it doesn't feel toxic or personal in the way a lot of writing discourse on the internet can be.
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Jul 27, 2021 10:58
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Chibnall from memory also apologized or at least he regretted how he said it when he appeared on television all that time ago. As he should have, because Colin Baker rules.
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Jul 27, 2021 11:18
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I agree that part of what makes the Timeless Child plot so terrible is that it needlessly makes the Doctor special in virtue of who they were born as rather than their deeds and virtues. However I do think it is partly just the logical continuation of how the Doctor's been presented right from the beginning of the reboot, and one of the aspects of the new stuff I've found least engaging. Right from the introduction of the 9th Doctor it's been all The Oncoming Storm, The Last of the Timelords, someone from the legends whose mere name strikes fear into the heart of evildoers the universe over. I know you can make the argument that yeah he did simultaneously genocide two warring empires and word would get around but still, it always felt like RTD, Moffat and now Chibnall never had the confidence in the modern TV world to just show us what makes the Doctor awesome, they had to layer on all this guff on top to turn the Doctor into Space Jesus.
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Jul 27, 2021 13:12
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:I agree that part of what makes the Timeless Child plot so terrible is that it needlessly makes the Doctor special in virtue of who they were born as rather than their deeds and virtues. I kind of get it in a way, because after the original series ended DW had become associated with trainspotters and neckbeards and computer geeks and basically was about as "uncool" as it was to be in terms of classic British TV (thanks in no small part to how the BBC itself regarded the show). I was over in the UK about two years after it'd ended, and you would think it had never aired in the first place. I've made no secret of my dislike of the revived series, *but* I will give both RTD and Moffat full credit in that they made the show popular again. The show reached new heights of popularity both domestic and international under their watch. It's not to my liking, but then a lot of things that are popular aren't; but they managed to take a show that had, rightly or wrongly, become associated with nerds in the public mind and turn it into something that was actually considered cool and hip, and that is no mean feat; so I give them full credit for that, regardless of whether I liked the actual product or not. Jerusalem posted:Chibnall from memory also apologized or at least he regretted how he said it when he appeared on television all that time ago. As he should have, because Colin Baker rules. I don't recall reading that, though it certainly may have happened. I did read about how Moffat had slagged off the McCoy years in his younger days, and then apologized when he was the DW showrunner, saying he just didn't get it at the time. Fair Bear Maiden posted:Of all the things that Chibnall has done, this is really not a huge deal. Besides, wasn't he a teenager at the time? They aren't exactly known for the nuance in their takes. I didn't say it was a huge deal, I was just saying I didn't feel sorry for him now that his own run on the show turns out to have all the excitement and drama of a load of styrofoam. I know I said (and did) a lot of idiot things as a teen, but I didn't go on TV and say them 
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Jul 27, 2021 14:11
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:However I do think it is partly just the logical continuation of how the Doctor's been presented right from the beginning of the reboot, and one of the aspects of the new stuff I've found least engaging. Right from the introduction of the 9th Doctor it's been all The Oncoming Storm, The Last of the Timelords, someone from the legends whose mere name strikes fear into the heart of evildoers the universe over. And all that being said, I would also agree that it's a very "fan" way of viewing the character, which isn't necessarily the best way to approach a character you're writing stories for.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:16
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I did read about how Moffat had slagged off the McCoy years in his younger days, and then apologized when he was the DW showrunner, saying he just didn't get it at the time. He was 34! (Also it wasn't the McCoy years, it was literally everything but the Davison years - and the ones he specifically slags off are Hartnell -> Tom) MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 16:40
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MrL_JaKiri posted:He was 34! I dunno about that, the thing I was referring to was an interview he did for DWM, where he'd said something in a different interview years before about how he thought McCoy's era was terrible; and then he'd re-watched it prior to taking over from RTD, and arrived at the opposite conclusion, and apologized to McCoy et al for slagging off his run on the show.
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Jul 27, 2021 16:55
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Just listened to A Thousand Tiny Wings! I'd somewhat ruined the arc for myself by listening to UNIT Dominion first (worth it, because that's a great story), but I was skeptical about the idea of bringing Klein back, especially the notion of bringing her into the TARDIS because well, Klein is one of the most unambiguously evil characters Big Finish have created. Not evil in the normal Doctor Who 'haha nothing can stop me now Doc-torrr' kind of campy way, but a realistic, grounded evil. She's perfectly fine with having assisted the mass murder of millions of people, and Tracey Childs' cold, detached performance really helped ground her, and it was satisfying to see Klein's plans crumble in Colditz, even if the Doctor leaving her to wonder felt a bit strange. I didn't know much about the Mau Mau Uprising, so I learned a bit this episode. The direction was great (Bowerman, much like Briggs is a lot of fun to listen to, and her enthusiasm is catchy), and the aliens felt convincingly alien, even if there was a bit of "the characters describe everything" going on. McCoy and Childs were great together in it. McCoy can do disgust very well, and he makes it very clear that he finds Klein and everything she stands for utterly replusive. Childs plays the role with an aloof, detachment, her lack of compassion or remorse is rather chilling. I got the bundle, so I'm interested to see how Klein gets remade and reborn into a friendly UNIT scientist in time for the events of Dominion. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jul 28, 2021 |
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Jul 28, 2021 00:31
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:I agree that part of what makes the Timeless Child plot so terrible is that it needlessly makes the Doctor special in virtue of who they were born as rather than their deeds and virtues. To my mind, the Timeless Child plot doesn't make the argument that the Doctor is special in virtue of how she was born. I'd have to rewatch, but I don't even think the Master is so pissed off at the Time Lords because the Doctor turns out to be the Timeless Child. He is pissed that he isn't special in the same way, certainly, but some of his anger did read to me as outrage at their treatment of the Doctor, who he has always had a special relationship with. Kind of like End of Time's "gently caress you, Rassilon" moment, only moreso. In other words, the reveal isn't about establishing that the Doctor is special because she was discovered by the Time Lords, turned out to be able to regenerate, and then got tested until the Time Lords figured out how to give themselves the same ability. It is about the Doctor being exploited by the Time Lords, ruthlessly and repeatedly, and then brainwashed into WORKING FOR THEM and defending them. It could possibly have been more steeped in postcolonialism, but it's hard to see how. And the Doctor's moment of escaping from the resulting Blue Screen of Death is Jo-projection-Doctor reminding her that she's defined, not by how she was born, but by who she is and what she does NOW. The real problem in my mind, both here and in both Chibnall seasons overall, is that we don't get to see enough of Thirteen showing how special she is via her deeds and virtues. There's a bit of that, but she gets oddly sidelined in some episodes and is made to seem excessively ineffective in others. Are there moments in the last two seasons that people would point to as the equivalent of Nine's "Everybody lives" moment? Of course, the underlying phenomenon of the reboot that you're pointing to is that big fans were writing for the show, and remembered both the Cartmel Masterplan and what the New Adventures had done for (and to) the character. Of course RTD decided to lift the "Gallifrey is destroyed" idea, and of course that ball got picked up and kicked around by his successors. On some level, these three showrunners exist in a context where they felt they had to defend their passion for this character and program, so naturally they are all, in their own ways, overanxious to prove both what the show is capable of doing and that the Doctor herself is like the best character ever, ya know? I think all three show signs of recognizing the problem, but respond differently to it. RTD threw in a few episodes undermining this narrative (and the Time Lord Victorious idea), and arguably the whole Donna season is about deflating Ten, brilliantly, but by the end it's clear RTD opts to own what he's done. Moffat arguably goes as far as he can with Twelve to make the Doctor unlikeable, almost to Six levels, but his heart clearly isn't in it and he keeps vacillating between the "I am not a good man" and "I want to be unknown" threads in the Doctor's story and the "Big drat hero" and "legendary" strands surrounding him. Hell, Moffat builds a story-line around the universe being destroyed because the TARDIS explodes, literally writing the Doctor into the heart of reality in an episode where he briefly gets written out. I think if assessed honestly, we need to acknowledge that Chibnall's seasons addressed the "Doctor is special because he's the Doctor" issue pretty well, although unfortunately by making Thirteen often seem ineffective, passive, or in error. The Tsurenga Conundrum sees her acting more or less like multiple past Doctors always did (with all the high-handedness of One, Three, Four, Six, Seven, Ten, and sometimes Eleven and Twelve) before correcting herself; with sharper writing, more sense of consequence for villains, and a very different kind of pacing and direction, it's fairly easy to imagine Thirteen as a Two-like manipulator, existing in the margins and prodding other people as often as she takes center stage. The larger problem, perhaps, is that the show's larger apparatus has been configured for so long with the objectives of the previous showrunners that even trying to pull a Two-style approach off would be a huge challenge, without factoring in that Chibnall has trouble zeroing in on how to write the character this way. If you think about it seriously, the Doctor changed from a rebel to the ultimate defender of the establishment, such as it is: Nine obviously didn't have that problem, but Ten was pretty heavy-handed with the "Lonely Time Lord" and "I am your judge" approaches to things even when he's fighting the Time Lords themselves, Eleven constantly takes things over, saves Gallifrey and then drops the whole "now I will find it" subplot, and ends up in one place for long periods of time where he's basically meddling outrageously. Twelve has a deep streak of arrogance so wide that he can tell Rassilon to get lost and he does. Even granting that the point of that episode is that Twelve is too arrogant, his final season keeps switching back and forth from a more humble Twelve like we see in The Doctor Falls (mostly) to the horrific arrogance he displays in The Lie of the Land. Thirteen is at least an attempt to do something different; failing, thus far, but a worthy thing to try. She's almost complete devoid of the typical Doctor's arrogance, though it's still present. She's isn't as casually privileged as most previous Doctors have been. The main problem is that she comes across, in terms of effectiveness as a revolutionary, about as well as the Occupy Wall Street movement.
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Jul 28, 2021 02:44
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I dunno about that, the thing I was referring to was an interview he did for DWM, where he'd said something in a different interview years before about how he thought McCoy's era was terrible; and then he'd re-watched it prior to taking over from RTD, and arrived at the opposite conclusion, and apologized to McCoy et al for slagging off his run on the show. https://drwhointerviews.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/steven-moffat-1985/ Here's the one I'm thinking of
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Jul 28, 2021 18:08
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What ever happened with that Time Lord Victorious event? It was slightly difficult to follow across all the media it was spread about and seems like I stopped hearing about it after a while. Worth trying to absorb through all its various means?
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Jul 28, 2021 18:18
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MrL_JaKiri posted:https://drwhointerviews.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/steven-moffat-1985/ This just confirms my theory that Moffat was determined to make DW cool and hip because he was a mega nerd when he was a kid E: and I say this as someone who wrote a book report on the novelization of "The Highlanders" in junior high during the 1980s Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jul 28, 2021 |
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Jul 28, 2021 18:18
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The Seventh Doctor is cool.AndyElusive posted:What ever happened with that Time Lord Victorious event? It wasn't very explained, but the books were the main story. The magazine comic and audios were Nine and Eight's journey through that narrative, so that's the essential parts of the story - the core stuff. From what I've pieced together: the Titan comics and the animated series were set in an altered timeline created by the events of the novels, which was neutralized. The comic app was very short little stories, and the t-shirt and action figures were just extra bits of lore. The Tom Baker audio was mainly a prequel to the Escape Room, and there were two short stories starring the Master, which shared plot elements with the Eight audios, and Easter Eggs with the VR game. The webcasts were adverts to the stage play, which isn't that connected to the narrative, from what I've heard. I admire the ambition of the story, but I think they were very unclear with how you were meant to follow the narrative. They didn't explain that the two novels were the actual story, and the rest are just additional plot threads very well. COVID delays hurt the flow too - the 8/10 audio that was meant to be a coda got delayed for weeks, for example. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jul 28, 2021 |
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Jul 28, 2021 18:31
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Doctor Who fans can't agree on anyt-OldMemes posted:The Seventh Doctor is cool. Nevermind.
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Jul 29, 2021 08:15
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Welp, that's it: Chibnall and Jodie are leaving next year. https://twitter.com/bbcdoctorwho/status/1420746545616408580 I mean I'm happy Chibnall's going but I really really really wish we could have had Jodie under another showrunner. Also does this mean we're only getting the three specials next year?
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Jul 29, 2021 15:05
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Tomtrek posted:Welp, that's it: Chibnall and Jodie are leaving next year. Six-part event serial this autumn, then two specials in 2022, then a final feature-length adventure to cap it all off Unfortunately it looks like next year's gonna be a drought for show viewers, which means it's a good time to catch up on audio dramas, books, and comics Perhaps they're going to use the 60th Anniversary to introduce the next Doctor?
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Jul 29, 2021 15:22
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That's what I'm gathering. Series 13 this year, three specials next year. Similar to the Tenant year of specials.
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Jul 29, 2021 15:22
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So 31 episodes ultimately for Jodie? Agree that it would have been nice to see her under a different show runner. Whomever is the next show runner, can you get the show's production in order enough to crank out more episodes a season again? Thanks. I can't think that's a budget limitation from the BBC, just a side effect of the expanded international shooting maybe? I dunno.
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Jul 29, 2021 15:30
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Wasn't it previously reported that Series 13 would be 8 episodes? I guess that included the two 2022 specials, and apparently the third special is a new addition. Whittaker leaving is sad but to be expected I guess. Chibnall going at the same time is a bit more surprising, especially when there is no obvious heir apparent.
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Jul 29, 2021 15:49
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Well this sucks. I don't have much else to add, but I'm really not happy about these developments. I wanted more Jody, more show, and not this weird uncertainty. Who will take over? Will anyone take over? Or will it just be a bunch of lovely specials forever? Please don't sell this poo poo off either. I can't think of much worse than Disney getting its hands on the show. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jul 29, 2021 |
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Jul 29, 2021 15:49
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Vinylshadow posted:Perhaps they're going to use the 60th Anniversary to introduce the next Doctor? soon enough the only episodes that ever come out at all will be for round number anniversaries. so why not have a new doctor in each one?
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Jul 29, 2021 15:51
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Oh I hadn't read the full article, yeah, looks like series 13 is the "6 part event" and two specials, and now one more special added as a departure/regeneration
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Jul 29, 2021 16:04
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Watch the regeneration end with the Doctor looking into a mirror, and sees the Ruth Doctor, and says "you lying bi-" and then cut to credits
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Jul 29, 2021 16:15
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Bye Chibbers. Good job loving it up for everyone.
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Jul 29, 2021 16:24
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Tomtrek posted:Welp, that's it: Chibnall and Jodie are leaving next year. This is some real monkey's paw poo poo.
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Jul 29, 2021 16:28
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Dabir posted:Bye Chibbers. Good job loving it up for everyone.
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Jul 29, 2021 16:30
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lol at the headline. The "three specials" are just a part of the episode order. A whole calendar year to air nine episodes is annoying. It sucks that Jodie's legacy will be entirely tied to Chibnall's writing.
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Jul 29, 2021 16:30
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Tomtrek posted:Welp, that's it: Chibnall and Jodie are leaving next year. I know Chibnall sucks and all that but it also seems like the BBC puts the screws to Doctor Who a lot, even though its so consistently popular. Like, she had what two full seasons, with production fuckery? Jodie Whitaker deserved better.
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Jul 29, 2021 16:32
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The BBC's highest execs are all tory chuds after Cameron parachuted a bunch of em in. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they had it in for a production where the Doctor is a woman
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Jul 29, 2021 16:40
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Mooseontheloose posted:I know JNT sucks and all that but it also seems like the BBC puts the screws to Doctor Who a lot, even though its so consistently popular. Like, he had what two full seasons, with production fuckery? Just a quick edit to show that the more things change, the more they stay the same when it comes to the Beeb and Doctor Who. Also hopefully Jodie jumps into Big Finish as soon as she can, would be nice to hear her do some adventures without Chibnall's drab gray influence all over 'em. Granted, we wouldn't be able to see that brilliant smile of hers, but I'd bet it'll still shine through in an audio adventure. 
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Jul 29, 2021 16:45
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Barry Foster posted:The BBC's highest execs are all tory chuds after Cameron parachuted a bunch of em in. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they had it in for a production where the Doctor is a woman Tolerance and equality, in my sci-fi series? CUT THE FUNDING.
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Jul 29, 2021 17:28
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MULTIDOC JODIE NOW LETS DO IT 13 AND 11 MAKE IT HAPPEN BRING IN 7 FOR FUNZIES IDC HOW OLD HE LOOKS NOW
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Jul 29, 2021 17:37
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This is both lovely and great.
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Jul 29, 2021 17:51
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Barry Foster posted:The BBC's highest execs are all tory chuds after Cameron parachuted a bunch of em in. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they had it in for a production where the Doctor is a woman Don't know about the top tier, but Piers Wenger is Director of Drama and was previously the director of BBC Wales and Exec Producer on both Doctor Who and Sarah Jane Adventures. I'd expect a combination of COVID and general fuckery with the BBC budgeting to be to blame, but I'm not exactly well-informed in this area. Given what Chibnall has been showing, I'd think that tory chuds would want him to stay, if only because of the non-zero risk that someone more effective replaces him. So the usual suspects would be Mark Gatiss and Toby Whithouse, I assume?
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Jul 29, 2021 18:01
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gently caress that, go off brand crazy, what's Ronald Moore up to?
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Jul 29, 2021 18:02
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