|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Legion of Everblight speaks to me more than Tyranids ever did. Everblight himself being a juvenile narcissist screaming "gently caress YOU DAD! I'M A DRAGON!" is the funniest poo poo in the world and much as Proteus is basically a swole Lictor, I like him better than the model they stole from.  I'm definitely a Legion stan, no matter how hard they suck
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2021 12:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:56 |
|
|
!Klams posted:I really really liked the mechanics of Warmachine, and thought it was an AMAZING game, but for me the huge reason why it's never going to be as big as 40k is that there are no factions that I really like. (Or at least, there weren't until Cephalyx became an army). I mean, this really depends on the person, but I totally understand how you feel. To me and a lot of people I know, basically any version of marines are the most boring, vanilla poo poo in existence, and 40k is just worse off for their overwhelming presence in the game. And seeing how much similarities there are between most of the power armored armies and how prevalent they are, 40k's aesthetic got me burned out super hard outside of a few things that GW will never focus on. Although to be honest, outside of the warbeasts/warjacks of various factions, most of the infantry never really did it for me, regardless of how much I liked them. I still just want to play armies that consist mostly of warjacks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 01:55
|
|
|
Cygnar are the Guard, not the Marines. And for all the Marines are boring they sell to 14 year old boys; not the only target market but a big one. Also the whole of Cygnar, Khador, and the Protectorate map to the Guard (plus Witch Hunters) To me the big problem is that Cryx aren't Chaos. Cryx are, when push comes to shove, a generic Eeeevil faction who, when push comes to shove, are no deeper than Might Makes Right. And even as Might Makes Right factions go they are a distant second to the Skorne who have a fairly coherent culture and a distinctive philosophy and aesthetic. There just isn't any "there" there to Cryx. Meanwhile the four Chaos gods are inherently corruptive and although the corruption is magical in nature it's also psychological and you can see why people go over to each of them and possibly picture when you would. Also Chaos has four (or five counting unaligned) factions with their own aesthetic each of which has both symmetry and contrast with the others. The other faction that comes off really badly when compared to their opposite number is the Redemption vs the Eldar. Both are sci-fi Elves, but the Redemption has none of the flamboyanceof e.g. the Aspect Warriors or the Harlequins and their warjacks look just bad, while Eldar vehicles look good. Or possibly the Redemption are more like the Tau visually - but they still look bad and have none of the optimistic tone of the Tau, being closer to the Eldar that way. There is of course one other huge faction in 40k with no equivalent at all. Orks. I think this leads to a conclusion that there's a lack of variety in the GrimDerp of WM/H. The original 8 factions are all either Hard Men Making Hard Decisions or Eeevil Looking To Kill, Enslave, And Torture Humanity - and of the later ones the closest to one not fitting is either the Convergence or the Retribution who just want to kill all human casters. 40k has plenty of Hard Men Making Hard Decisions and Eeeevil Looking To Kill And Enslave. But I'd describe three of the most popular non-human factions as We Like To Fite!, Neutral Hungry, and Endangered Naive Optimists.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 10:03
|
|
|
The three armies I find most appealing are the dwarves, the pigs, and the gators, none of which get to be real factions of course 
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 11:32
|
|
|
I started playing because I loved the look of Everblight's beasts. I understand when people complain of sameness of aesthetic on the Warmachine side (for 'jacks, anyway). I do not understand how anyone can take that position about the Hordes side. Over the weekend I got my first 75 point game in, outdoors. Primal Terrors versus Armored Corps. In the process I learned that models can charge despite being engaged in melee. Lost, but had fun.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 16:07
|
|
|
I play Cygnar specifically because I almost always avoid “good guy” factions in every other game, and I wanted one where my main army more or less mapped to the forces of good (obviously in most games there’s no fully “good” faction, but you get my meaning). I’ll keep my Cygnar armies even if the game stays deader than dead, because I like collecting and honestly the drop-off of Warmahordes allows me to get pieces I don’t have yet on the cheap. And I can still teach my friends how to play at a skirmish level, so I can at least play with my minis a little. It is very said to see the state of the game now, though, considering how fun and popular (in non-40K war game terms) it was in its heyday.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
neonchameleon posted:Cygnar are the Guard, not the Marines. And for all the Marines are boring they sell to 14 year old boys; not the only target market but a big one. Also the whole of Cygnar, Khador, and the Protectorate map to the Guard (plus Witch Hunters) Yeah, I think all of this is good and right, but I do sort of also think it highlights a larger point, which is that they don't really map directly, because the WM stuff lacks iconic identities. You can only really give a one-line description of most of the WM factions by likening them to something else. They're not really 'driven' by an underlying concept in the same way the 40k armies are. Really, when you're doing your comparisons there, what you're actually saying is "Cygnar, Khador and Protectorate can only really be described by likening them to other, more clearly defined things."
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 16:48
|
|
|
I've got Gators and Cephalyx and love all those models, but every other faction turns me right off. I bet if you cut down the other factions to the same model count as the mini factions they could sustain their theme a little better. Even Gators started to feel a little bloated for their last releases tbh. I love playing bad guy factions, though. Probably a side effect of mostly GMing for my hobby group
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 19:57
|
|
|
 A million years ago I got into Hordes because I saw this picture.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 20:19
|
|
|
My biggest problems with this game were that it was incredibly unforgiving to learn, and not very fun or interesting on the modeling/painting side. I really liked the hero driven design and the assassination concept that just ends a game. I also liked the idea of just having a handful of big beasts/robots punching eachother. When this game lined up, (good opponent, good matched up forces, fun scenario) I really loved it. The other times though, not so much. When I got into the game in my competitive scene, I found that every successful list ran a bunch of chaff that could be buffed up to the point that two or three infantry models could one-turn my gargantuan units, and the rest would screen my entire army out. The scenarios punished me for taking beast heavy lists as well. I then fared incredibly poorly with infantry lists because every army in the game shuts off my trollblood's resilience abilities. My army got an incredibly ugly model of an earth-druid that I guess gives better healing abilities. I had a few games that lasted less time than the setup because of some crazy combo my opponent didn't warn me about that turn-one killed my protected caster as well. Some of the really good players in my scene took a lot of time to coach me, but the game and my faction never clicked with me enough to win outside of mirror matches and the occasional one-off against someones janky new list. For steamrollers, I won one match in my entire career of five steamroller tournaments. Maybe this game just wasn't for me? For the hobbying side, I found too many of my units had a million small details that made painting a nightmare. My trollsbloods all have a billion leather straps with little definition, and a bunch of kegs and buckles that slow the detailing to a crawl. Compare this to GW orks which are a blast to paint all their silly faces with incredible definition, infinite conversion potential, and just enough detail to establish some areas of interest with contrast on the model. I have a sizeable troll army that I'm currently stressed about now because I need to find a way to package it up and sell it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 20:40
|
|
|
It was the stock photo of the Judicator that got me to investigate Warmachine. I don't really play Menoth but their visual style really hooked me. I ended up playing "Cygnar" with Stryker2 and as many trolls as I could run in MK2. There isn't anything as iconic as the Space Marine, but I also don't know if that's a bad thing? Space Marines are defined by how generic they are both due to their visual design and how foundational they are in sci fi board / video games. They do nothing for me. Of course, this is anecdotal. My playgroup tried and failed to get into 40k because none of the factions really gripped anyone the same way that multiple Warmachine factions did. Age of Sigmar isn't really taking off in this group because we can't all play skaven. (Note: we can, but people dont like that idea)
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 20:53
|
|
|
rydiafan posted:
The factions definitely have strong aesthetics, they just don't map to 40k or WHFB factions like a lot of people want or expect, since it's so common in so many miniature games. I honestly have no idea what the complaint about Cryx's presence is getting at. They're undead robots and pirates. They're very easy to pick out from the other factions in the game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 21:07
|
|
|
S.J. posted:They're undead robots and pirates. They're very easy to pick out from the other factions in the game. What do undead robots have to do with pirates? Especially when there's so little overlap. If one of the secrets to Cryxian success were that their pirates used undead-crewed galleys with the untiring skeletons pulling the oars that would make sense. Or for that matter a pirate raiding force that overwhelmed towns off small boats because they used fast animation of skeletons (without steam fists). But the only overlap I can think of is Blackbane's Ghost Raiders. Cygnar used to have this much more clearly. You had the gun centered part with thunderous volleys. You had the lightning centered part. And bridging them you had Gun Mages who had three shots with one being long range shooting (gun centered), one being lighting from their guns, and one being a thunderbolt thematically bridging the two. This changed because they found that cortex damage on infantry made taking jacks against them no fun at all but the thematics were there. neonchameleon fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Aug 1, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 01:57
|
|
|
I always thought that the problem with cryx was less aesthetic and more the fact that one of the lead designers was an open, blatant faction partisan and consistently pushed them to be the most broken faction. yet another sin to lay at the door of jason soles
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 03:39
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I always thought that the problem with cryx was less aesthetic and more the fact that one of the lead designers was an open, blatant faction partisan and consistently pushed them to be the most broken faction. yet another sin to lay at the door of jason soles You mean Ed B? He was the lead designer in Mk2 and just blatantly loved Cryx more than anyone else neonchameleon posted:What do undead robots have to do with pirates? Especially when there's so little overlap. If one of the secrets to Cryxian success were that their pirates used undead-crewed galleys with the untiring skeletons pulling the oars that would make sense. Or for that matter a pirate raiding force that overwhelmed towns off small boats because they used fast animation of skeletons (without steam fists). But the only overlap I can think of is Blackbane's Ghost Raiders. Who said there had to be any overlap? The two things can coexist in the same faction. I have no idea what you're talking about with Cygnar - the different infantry flavors share literally nothing, aesthetics wise, in common other than Gun Mages having electro leap and a color scheme. You've got WW1 trench dudes with proper rifles, machine guns, and artillery, pseudo-medieval knights with electric swords, and American Revolution-esque scouts with magic flintlocks. I totally get it if you just don't like the way the Cryx stuff fits together, but honestly, it's no worse than any of the other Iron Kingdoms factions
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 03:46
|
|
|
S.J. posted:You mean Ed B? He was the lead designer in Mk2 and just blatantly loved Cryx more than anyone else I thought Soles was the one pushing Asphyxious through the roof? It’s been years.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
Don't forget that Cryx also had a handful of just plain generic undead in the Banes, although I do agree that Cygnar wasn't really any more coherent as a faction. This is all reminding me of how disappointing the initial release of the allies units were. Aside from the Cephalyx, they were some of the blandest medieval fantasy figures I'd ever seen at a time when I thought they were doing a pretty good job overall of standing out. Also on the subject of theme, I always felt like cavalry was a mistake as well. I didn't go out of my way to read a ton of the background or RP material, but what I did read never seemed to mention horses, and I grew attached to the idea of a world without them, like the 'jacks made them obsolete in this universe, or maybe they didn't exist at all. I can see how adding them helped expand the line and create some new tactical options, but it made the world a little less special as well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 05:26
|
|
|
smug jeebus posted:Don't forget that Cryx also had a handful of just plain generic undead in the Banes, although I do agree that Cygnar wasn't really any more coherent as a faction. Haha, I've said that in my local group for a while. You could wholesale take every cavalry model in the game out and throw it in the trash and I wouldn't even notice
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 05:32
|
|
|
S.J. posted:I mean, this really depends on the person, but I totally understand how you feel. To me and a lot of people I know, basically any version of marines are the most boring, vanilla poo poo in existence, and 40k is just worse off for their overwhelming presence in the game. And seeing how much similarities there are between most of the power armored armies and how prevalent they are, 40k's aesthetic got me burned out super hard outside of a few things that GW will never focus on. I'm kinda the opposite, I loved Banes and would run at least 2 units in most of my Mk2 Lists. Now, they basically worthless dogshit and my Stalkers do all the heavy lifting 
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 08:30
|
|
|
Banes are pretty dope so I feel you I also like Troll Champs which is why I ran them all through 2019, gently caress the meta E: I still will run them, Archons can eat my poo poo for real Ee: I think Bane Knights are still pretty viable with a couple casters at least, the redone BB caster seems fine S.J. fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Aug 1, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
I think under Agathia with the Henchmen buff they're okay, but I think it's pretty telling that they need +2 Def, Mat, and Apparition to be competitive these days. I'm also not generally a fan of Agathia even after the re-work really, so there's that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 00:03
|
|
|
S.J. posted:Haha, I've said that in my local group for a while. You could wholesale take every cavalry model in the game out and throw it in the trash and I wouldn't even notice This is both correct and makes me sad because I love my Steelhead Cavalry. Those poor Skorne battle cats should really be put out of their misery.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 02:29
|
|
|
I still haven't assembled the Steelhead Cavalry, just sitting in a box judging me quietly. I did finally put together the Tharne Wolfriders and I kind of like them, but I don't think the game needed a whole separate cavalry thing, should have just treated them like a variety of multiwound infantry.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 02:41
|
|
|
List of cool cavalry in the game: Gun Mage Cav Bane cav Whatever the Legion heavy cav centaur dudes are called I really want to say Trollblood cav but I know it's not true
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 02:48
|
|
|
Storm Lances are really loving good.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 02:57
|
|
|
I did not say good
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 02:59
|
|
|
That's fair. Cygnar's best cavalry is Kraye's battlegroup anyway.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 03:07
|
|
|
neonchameleon posted:What do undead robots have to do with pirates? Especially when there's so little overlap. If one of the secrets to Cryxian success were that their pirates used undead-crewed galleys with the untiring skeletons pulling the oars that would make sense. Or for that matter a pirate raiding force that overwhelmed towns off small boats because they used fast animation of skeletons (without steam fists). But the only overlap I can think of is Blackbane's Ghost Raiders. Aesthetically it's a mishmash because Cryx was the bad guy for the d20 material, and I imagine whatever homebrew setting one of the designers created, that preceded Warmachine proper.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 04:38
|
|
|
S.J. posted:List of cool cavalry in the game: Tuffalos rule, get the gently caress out. More games need buffalos
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 06:05
|
|
|
CaptCommy posted:Tuffalos rule, get the gently caress out. More games need buffalos they were cool when they came out but their models look like butt now 
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 06:17
|
|
|
Hey remember when they replaced the wonderful metal sculpts for the axer, impaler and bouncer with plastics that were hot garbage
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 06:21
|
|
|
smug jeebus posted:Hey remember when they replaced the wonderful metal sculpts for the axer, impaler and bouncer with plastics that were hot garbage The impaler and the bouncer are almost identical, they're fine. Honestly the bouncer is better because metal chains suck. The axer tho, oof
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 06:22
|
|
|
smug jeebus posted:Hey remember when they replaced the wonderful metal sculpts for the axer, impaler and bouncer with plastics that were hot garbage When I think of bad transitions to plastic, I think of the mauler.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 13:42
|
|
|
I hadn't thought about it for a while but the PP transition to plastics was kind of a mess. I completely understand why they did it and it wasn't a bad plan at all, but for whatever reason a ton of the conversions really sucked the life out of many figures. I don't know if this was a limitation of their casting or if they had uninspired sculptors managing the new versions or what. But you had this:  Go to this:  The new version isn't a bad model or anything, it comes out fine, but it kept so little of the original's character and mood.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 14:16
|
|
|
Ashcans posted:I hadn't thought about it for a while but the PP transition to plastics was kind of a mess. I completely understand why they did it and it wasn't a bad plan at all, but for whatever reason a ton of the conversions really sucked the life out of many figures. I don't know if this was a limitation of their casting or if they had uninspired sculptors managing the new versions or what. In defense, the Metal Nomad had one of the thinnest metal swords I've ever seen on a model and would bend constantly. I think I eventually replaced all mine with the plastic swords from the kit and breathed a sigh of relief in the process. That said, it is fun food for thought. The transition to plastics was not great for PP. A lot of the warjacks got stockier and much less dynamic whereas the Horde models seem to be reduced, sometimes drastically, in quality and detail. I remember thinking my plastic Skorne looked much worse, and I tend to champion plastics when it comes to minis.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 14:44
|
|
|
Ashcans posted:I hadn't thought about it for a while but the PP transition to plastics was kind of a mess. I completely understand why they did it and it wasn't a bad plan at all, but for whatever reason a ton of the conversions really sucked the life out of many figures. I don't know if this was a limitation of their casting or if they had uninspired sculptors managing the new versions or what. yes! this comparison is the one I bring up whenever I complain about the new(er) pp plastic sculpts. The old Nomad was the model that got me into mercenaries and the new one is dumb as hell Gato The Elder fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Aug 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 19:30
|
|
|
At least the Centurion got a real spear
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
The old one is a much better pose but it's also not particularly practical for a miniatures game with precise movement and short melee ranges
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2021 20:50
|
|
|
smug jeebus posted:At least the Centurion got a real spear Yeah, some of the plastics fell flat, and some were absolutely gorgeous. The Centurion and the Stormclad were great upgrades. I think other than the Nomad kit the Warjacks were pretty much all improvements, and it varied a lot more with the beasts
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:56 |
|
|
Ashcans posted:I hadn't thought about it for a while but the PP transition to plastics was kind of a mess. I completely understand why they did it and it wasn't a bad plan at all, but for whatever reason a ton of the conversions really sucked the life out of many figures. I don't know if this was a limitation of their casting or if they had uninspired sculptors managing the new versions or what. I was going to say this was like the opposite of the way the Mule went, but then I went and checked the plastic vs metal Mule and their pose is basically the same, lol. Makes me feel a lot better about my chunky metal Mule now.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 21:04
|
|