Sonic Megathread: They use the existing toilets but the layouts are all new

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Hitlersaurus Christ: Oct 14, 2005

MikeJF posted:

Dimps's big issue is that their engine has been drifting further from classic 2D Sonic physics every time they do a release and they seem unable and/or unwilling to understand how critical good physics is - and more importantly, how key that specific physics setup is to Sonic's gameplay identity - and fix it back up.

Those physics are key to classic style 2D Sonic�s gameplay identity, but I don�t think they�re necessary to make a good Sonic game. Rush�s physics were a huge departure from them but worked well within the scope of the game because they allowed you to stop and start on a dime. The problem is when they�re aiming to give you a classic experience but eschew those specific physics, like Sonic 4 and Sonic Generations 3DS.

But ultimately DIMPS are just slightly above being code monkeys. It�s the job of who�s hiring them to get in there and tell them how the game should play and what changes need to be made.

Simply Simon posted:

Shadow really sucks though it became mediocre instead of godawful to me once I understood the controls a bit better. I actually like a lot of 06's level design, there's some awesome stuff there, and I think the combat is surprisingly deep and could be a lot of fun after the awful attempts in Heroes and Shadow. It could have been a great Adventure 3 with two more years in the oven. There's absolutely wasted potential there.

If those two more years in the oven included rewriting the entire story, making the amigo characters actually fun to play as, making humans not look like Poser models, adding a Chao garden, etc. then sure. But two years after 06 we ended up getting Unleashed which was better in every aspect, so I�m okay with that.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:04

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# ? May 25, 2024 11:11

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

I thought they satisfactorily corrected the physics for Generations 3DS and Sonic 4 ep2. I will not be replaying them to refresh my assessment.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:09

Looper: Mar 1, 2012

4 ep 2 is a big step up for the most part but it's still not great

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:12

mycot: Oct 23, 2014; "It's okay. There are other Terminators! Just give us this one!"; Hell Gem

Hitlersaurus Christ posted:

Those physics are key to classic style 2D Sonic�s gameplay identity, but I don�t think they�re necessary to make a good Sonic game. Rush�s physics were a huge departure from them but worked well within the scope of the game because they allowed you to stop and start on a dime. The problem is when they�re aiming to give you a classic experience but eschew those specific physics, like Sonic 4 and Sonic Generations 3DS.

But ultimately DIMPS are just slightly above being code monkeys. It�s the job of who�s hiring them to get in there and tell them how the game should play and what changes need to be made.

If those two more years in the oven included rewriting the entire story, making the amigo characters actually fun to play as, making humans not look like Poser models, adding a Chao garden, etc. then sure. But two years after 06 we ended up getting Unleashed which was better in every aspect, so I�m okay with that.

Honestly if the entire rest of the game weren't poo poo the completely batshit insane story would probably be a beloved meme like Adventure 1/2.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:13

Takoluka: Jun 26, 2009; Don't look at me!

Re: Dimps

I won't defend their Sonic track record, but Fatal Bullet and Freedom Wars were very good games. I hear Xenoverse 2 is also really fun. They're a land of contrasts.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:28

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

I'm going to put my neck on the line and say Street Fighter 4 was a good game

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:40

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Hitlersaurus Christ posted:

If those two more years in the oven included rewriting the entire story, making the amigo characters actually fun to play as, making humans not look like Poser models, adding a Chao garden, etc. then sure. But two years after 06 we ended up getting Unleashed which was better in every aspect, so I�m okay with that.

I don't care about story (or I wouldn't play any Sonic game), yeah it's loving terrible but maybe with two more years it could have been coherent at least. I also don't care for Chao garden, no idea why anyone ever liked those tbh.

Unleashed is a Boost game and I love those (Colors and especially Generations showed me that Sonic could be Good, Actually) but it's very different from 06's Adventure style, and it's sad that they dropped it with that hot potato. Hell, even if they didn't make any more Adventure-style games after a good 06, at least it could be a crowning achievement that perfected the style instead of...that.

One other thing I forgot that I really like about 06: the S-Ranks are an actual challenge, and often have a surprising amount of thought put into them. Here's what I had to say about it in another forum:

quote:

Enemies give a lot of points, and killing a group by destroying the leader gives a LOT of points. This is factored into the ranking. Therefore, in most levels, going fast won't help you unless you're speedrun-level-breaking-fast (and often not even then); you'll have to stop and kill enemies. Dying ofc resets your current score to 0, so everything you killed before the checkpoint is gone AND has cost you time for nothing. So usually you can kiss your S-Rank goodbye if you die, which, you know, fair.

Same goes for rainbow ring bonuses which is like rewards for platforming shortcuts. Often, the game tries to be smart with this (credit where it's due), so you'll sometimes see a chain of rainbow rings that give you as many or more points as you'd have gotten for killing enemies on the not-shortcut-route, and ofc it's faster, so usually it's good to go for them.

The Ring Bonus is the real kicker here, because it's gigantic. Each Ring you carry to the end is worth 110 points (10 for pickup, 100 for the final tally), so if you finish a level with e.g. 200 rings, you get almost half of your S-Rank requirement in one go, it's bananas. This also means that not only does dying kill your chances, for some levels, getting hit does. That is obviously a problem in a game like this where it's extremely easy to get hit by random bullshit, especially in the Mach Speed levels. S-Ranking Crisis City is a doozy. Otoh, I got an S-Rank yesterday by somehow not getting hit during the final segment, and if you get all the ring trails by light-speed-dashing, you can easily get 200+ Rings which grants you an S-Rank even if you died somewhere along the way.

tl;dr: the ranking system is surprisingly deep and well thought out, and it's pretty tough for most levels to get a high rank in because you have to balance killing with speed and keeping your rings. If you factor in the random factors from all the jank, this might be the toughest Sonic to S-Rank, though admittedly I haven't tried for that many others (it's definitely harder than A-Ranks in Shadow, Heroes, and S-Ranks in Generations).

To add onto that, something that's almost never shown off is the Town Missions, and some of those are really tightly made. SOMEONE cared. There's a clear path through them that you have to follow optimally to get the S-Rank, usually handled by having a new segment's objects spawn after you got all of the previous ones (that keeps confusing players, not saying it's good but it's consistent once you figure it out); said path often contains breakable objects, rings etc. that increase your score just right that with a time bonus of "not loving up", you get the S-Rank just so. Meaning that someone hand-placed one more rainbow ring to get the score high enough, or added another 5er of Rings in a mission where you can't get hit in, to make the S-Rank just difficult enough to achieve, but doable overall. It's fascinating stuff, to probably only me.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:42

womb with a view: Sep 8, 2007

Simply Simon posted:

I also don't care for Chao garden, no idea why anyone ever liked those tbh.

Noooooooo

Real talk though it was a surprisingly well designed virtual pet simulation with a ton of replay value. And aside from Chao Karate (which was pretty tame anyway and only in the GC SA2 onward I think?) they managed to think of a monster raising mechanic that didn't involve them beating the poo poo out of each other.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:54

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Do it, simon. Give us the Sonic 06 100% LP we deserve.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 14:57

Simsmagic: Aug 3, 2011; im beautiful

Sonic 4 ep 2 somehow manages to fix almost all of the problems of the first game but introduces just as many new ones to replace them

# ? Aug 3, 2021 15:03

Looper: Mar 1, 2012

Simply Simon posted:

I don't care about story (or I wouldn't play any Sonic game), yeah it's loving terrible but maybe with two more years it could have been coherent at least. I also don't care for Chao garden, no idea why anyone ever liked those tbh.
.

hm, ignored

# ? Aug 3, 2021 15:57

Augus: Mar 9, 2015

Takoluka posted:

Re: Dimps

I won't defend their Sonic track record, but Fatal Bullet and Freedom Wars were very good games. I hear Xenoverse 2 is also really fun. They're a land of contrasts.

Dragon Ball Advanced Adventure was dope

# ? Aug 3, 2021 16:29

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Chao Gardens were probably the coolest poo poo ever when you were a kid and had tons of free time and could take your little buddy to school in your VMU or GBA. As an adult in the year 2021 they're shallow and grindy.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 17:28

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

useless discussion seeing as there is a chao garden in 06

# ? Aug 3, 2021 18:00

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

those very hard stages are actually really good, what's going on

# ? Aug 3, 2021 18:27

Looper: Mar 1, 2012

once you embrace what it is and play it on its own terms, 06 is pretty fun

# ? Aug 3, 2021 18:31

Larryb: Oct 5, 2010

Blaze is one of the best playable characters in the game, a pity you can only do so about 3 times.

The Solaris fight at the end wasn�t bad either in my opinion (protip: after the part early on where you have to use him just ignore Silver entirely and focus on alternating between Sonic and Shadow for the rest of the battle, also if you just keep dashing back and forth while charging the gauge he will barely have a chance to hit you. Switch characters as soon as you�re down to about 30-20 rings).

Larryb fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Aug 3, 2021

# ? Aug 3, 2021 18:38

womb with a view: Sep 8, 2007

Dabir posted:

Chao Gardens were probably the coolest poo poo ever when you were a kid and had tons of free time and could take your little buddy to school in your VMU or GBA. As an adult in the year 2021 they're shallow and grindy.

That's when you install enough mods to prevent the already fragile PC port from starting up 9 times out of 10

# ? Aug 3, 2021 19:39

SeANMcBAY: Jun 28, 2006; Look on the bright side.

Simply Simon posted:

those very hard stages are actually really good, what's going on

I watched raocow play the first Sonic one last night and they seem pretty interesting.

# ? Aug 3, 2021 20:22

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

raocow gave me the push to continue with my playthrough, helped me get the DLC running on emulator, and the quote above is from his forum lol

# ? Aug 3, 2021 22:50

Augus: Mar 9, 2015

one thing I do appreciate about that fan-made PC port of 06 that�s being worked on is that it improves Sonic�s movement to be actually kinda tolerable, with some actual momentum to running and jumping. Still not as good as Adventure but enough that it�s at least a little bit fun?

Augus fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Aug 4, 2021

# ? Aug 3, 2021 23:52

ArfJason: Sep 5, 2011

Jesus loving christ guys have some goddamn self respect

# ? Aug 4, 2021 00:51

Looper: Mar 1, 2012

i'm in world 4 now and i think lost world just might have the worst cutscenes of any game in this series, the writing is so banal

# ? Aug 4, 2021 01:59

flavor.flv: Apr 18, 2008; I got a letter from the government the other day
opened it, read it
it said they was bitches

ArfJason posted:

Jesus loving christ guys have some goddamn self respect

You are speaking to sonic fans

# ? Aug 4, 2021 02:04

Augus: Mar 9, 2015

Looper posted:

i'm in world 4 now and i think lost world just might have the worst cutscenes of any game in this series, the writing is so banal

lol wait til you hear sonic's ""sick burns"" against the world 4 boss

# ? Aug 4, 2021 03:55

kirbysuperstar: Nov 11, 2012; Let the fools who stand before us be destroyed by the power you and I possess.

Looper posted:

i'm in world 4 now and i think lost world just might have the worst cutscenes of any game in this series, the writing is so banal

It really makes the constant Zavok push even worse doesn't it

# ? Aug 4, 2021 04:08

Electric Phantasm: Apr 7, 2011; YOSPOS

The Zavok push is still real weird to me. Like why?

# ? Aug 4, 2021 04:13

DoctorWhat: Nov 18, 2011; A little privacy, please?

They have high quality models of him lying around.

# ? Aug 4, 2021 04:24

SeANMcBAY: Jun 28, 2006; Look on the bright side.

I like the Deadly Six. :blush:

# ? Aug 4, 2021 04:25

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

SeANMcBAY posted:

I like the Deadly Six.

Same. The recent comics have also improved them. Though Zeena and Zomom are still pretty bad as their sole characteristics are pretty much vain evil idiot, and gluttonous evil idiot.

# ? Aug 4, 2021 04:54

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Whoever's in charge in Sonic Team is seriously detached from the outside world.

# ? Aug 4, 2021 04:54

SeANMcBAY: Jun 28, 2006; Look on the bright side.

Dabir posted:

Whoever's in charge in Sonic Team is seriously detached from the outside world.

Feel free to quote me on this next year or whenever the next game is out but I have a good feeling this time.

# ? Aug 4, 2021 05:09

Detective No. 27: Jun 7, 2006

Takoluka posted:

Re: Dimps

I won't defend their Sonic track record, but Fatal Bullet and Freedom Wars were very good games. I hear Xenoverse 2 is also really fun. They're a land of contrasts.

I worked at GameStop when Fatal Bullet came out and everyone who I had sold it to returned it immediately after they hated it so much.

# ? Aug 4, 2021 05:59

Takoluka: Jun 26, 2009; Don't look at me!

Detective No. 27 posted:

I worked at GameStop when Fatal Bullet came out and everyone who I had sold it to returned it immediately after they hated it so much.

If you go in expecting more Sword Art Online like the previous bad games, you'll probably hate it or be lukewarm on it. I picked it up on a sale and went "Oh my god, it's Freedom Wars 2," right down to the grappling hook mechanic and featuring an actual stage area from Freedom Wars. It's got some jank and balance issues, but it's a pretty fun experience overall. I'd suggest getting it in PC, because the gunplay on twin sticks is a bit of a hassle.

# ? Aug 4, 2021 06:22

kirbysuperstar: Nov 11, 2012; Let the fools who stand before us be destroyed by the power you and I possess.

It's FW2 but they doubled down on all the bad parts of FW by having even more hitscan bullshit, worse grappling and dumber AI

# ? Aug 4, 2021 06:39

amigolupus: Aug 25, 2017

Looper posted:

i'm in world 4 now and i think lost world just might have the worst cutscenes of any game in this series, the writing is so banal

Lost World, Colors and Generations were written by Pontac and Graff, right? That's probably why the character writing is so banal. Say what you will about Forces, '06 or Shadow, but they had some funny/bad writing to keep your attention.

# ? Aug 4, 2021 06:45

kirbysuperstar: Nov 11, 2012; Let the fools who stand before us be destroyed by the power you and I possess.

amigolupus posted:

Lost World, Colors and Generations were written by Pontac and Graff, right? That's probably why the character writing is so banal. Say what you will about Forces, '06 or Shadow, but they had some funny/bad writing to keep your attention.

Colours and Generations had some good jokes though, LW doesn't even have that

# ? Aug 4, 2021 06:52