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cruft posted:If the wires are correctly hooked up on the other end, then wouldn't this mean any grounded thing plugged into that circuit could electrocute anyone touching it? If the wires on the other end were hooked up correctly, there would be no hot feeding this receptacle because the black wire from incoming power was capped off. The thought process or lack-there-of that went into this installation boggles the mind. I like that the bare wire on the grounded conductor terminal was the only one wrapped the correctly around the screw lol.
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Aug 3, 2021 19:02
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Rufio posted:If the wires on the other end were hooked up correctly, there would be no hot feeding this receptacle because the black wire from incoming power was capped off. I'm going to elaborate on this because it took me a couple minutes and I think it's of interest to people trying to understand wiring. What this means is that the wire coming from the circuit breaker panel is the one on the left side of the screen. The poster said it was "capped off", meaning it had one of those twisty hats on top of it to keep it from shorting anything. So although there is a black wire on the side of the outlet that the black wire should be on, it's running to some other thing in the house, ostensibly some other outlet. That wouldn't be a problem if the white and ground wires were also running through the same bundle, but those two are wired (incorrectly) back to the circuit breaker panel.
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Aug 3, 2021 20:48
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Gonna steal referring to wire nuts as twisty hats from now on
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Aug 3, 2021 20:51
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cruft posted:I'm going to elaborate on this because it took me a couple minutes and I think it's of interest to people trying to understand wiring. Incorrectly because you're not supposed to short neutral to ground; the whole point of ground is in case your power drill gets hosed up, the current has a fast (and, criticially, unloaded; as in, there is no current normally on it) path back to ground. A path that doesn't include your heart. I guess there's just a whole lot to pick apart on this. It might be worth somebody who isn't a rank amateur like I am describing all the problems with this and why they're problematic. I think it's really interesting! Inner Light posted:Gonna steal referring to wire nuts as twisty hats from now on 
cruft fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 20:54
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I want to know how it was being fed hot from the white. I feel like I'm missing something there.
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Aug 3, 2021 21:54
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It was in the middle of a multi outlet branch circuit. The previous receptacle was wired incorrectly on the outgoing power and this was wired incorrectly to match. That's what makes it so wild. Someone who was replacing receptacles didn't even bother hooking wires color to color. We will never know what went on here because we don't know what it's like to not have a brain.
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Aug 3, 2021 22:13
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Rufio posted:We will never know what went on here because we don't know what it's like to not have a brain. 
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Aug 3, 2021 22:21
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And you know that tab was broken off when the drat breaker kept popping.
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Aug 3, 2021 23:01
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H110Hawk posted:And you know that tab was broken off when the drat breaker kept popping. It's just the angle of the picture that makes it look broken. The tab is actually in tact, else the other room would have had an open neutral. Everything down the line was fine except for open ground. All of the receptacles on the circuit were functioning just fine, except that anything drawing power on the circuit would put a load on that bare wire. The owner (landlord) had no idea there was a problem until she wanted to sell and a home inspection found open ground. Rufio fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Aug 4, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 23:34
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Harry_Potato posted:That looks like a switch loop done backwards. The proper thing to switch is the "hot" side. It looks from you picks that they are extending the neutral down to the switch and breaking it there. Electrically this works, but it is a code no no. Wiring in your new fixture to the two black wires will work and despite being "wrong" in not really a safety issue. Thanks. I appreciate the info. Turns out every ceiling fixture is wired like that.
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Aug 4, 2021 03:26
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I pulled a new 12/2 cable from the panel to the bathroom to replace the ungrounded 14 gauge in there. I need to use the same receptacle location, and I can't remove the old romex (which is now not connected to anything else) because it's nailed to studs. Should the old romex simply be capped off inside the receptacle box and kept separate from the new cable, or should they be connected to each other in some way?
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Aug 4, 2021 03:50
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BonerGhost posted:I pulled a new 12/2 cable from the panel to the bathroom to replace the ungrounded 14 gauge in there. I need to use the same receptacle location, and I can't remove the old romex (which is now not connected to anything else) because it's nailed to studs. If it's not being used anymore you can try sticking it back through the hole in the back of the box to leave it dangling in the wall. If that's not possible I would just cap the two abandoned wires(neutral and hot) together in the back of the box and call it a day.
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Aug 4, 2021 03:55
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In other news it was only 95 degrees outside today so I climbed in my attic and finished up putting my bathroom on it's own ~grounded~ GFCI/AFCI 20 amp circuit. 
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Aug 4, 2021 04:02
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Hahahaha what you can just abandon wires in the wall??? Why did no one mention this sooner?!
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Aug 4, 2021 06:27
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You only have to pull it if it’s in conduit or if it’s exposed and accessible, for NM just cut that poo poo and stuff it in. I typically put a little tape flag identifying where the other end of the cable is cut off at but that’s by no means mandatory.
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Aug 4, 2021 07:46
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BonerGhost posted:Hahahaha what you can just abandon wires in the wall??? Why did no one mention this sooner?! You have to abandon them at both ends, don't forget this key point.
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Aug 4, 2021 07:47
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I've had to abandon a wire or two in my day and I usually cut it so that you can't get to it / wire to it just in case someoen else gets a stupid idea in 50 years (I plan on not moving for a long time moving sucks). Like I had a wire going to overhead outdoor wires to my garage so I cut it as close to the hole it went into as I could to prevent it from ever being used.
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Aug 4, 2021 13:23
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You also have to remove any abandoned runs once you make them accessible (rip down wall), but like, what kind of SOB wouldn't do that anyway if the wall's open? The rules for stapling/securing cables are also very relaxed if you're fishing in existing walls, but again, once you open it up, you have to do it right.
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Aug 4, 2021 14:08
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Folks you have just made my life a million times easier.
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Aug 4, 2021 17:59
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Our main bathroom has what is basically a closet for the toilet. In that closet was a blank face GFCI outlet. I asked an electrician that was here doing other work about it and he said it's providing GFCI for the circuit the jacuzzi tub is on (which we'll likely never use). Since the wife would really like a bidet seat, I figured why not change it to an actual outlet. Yesterday, I flipped the breaker off and got to work. When I got the blank face off, I found this:  It's tough to see but there is a three-prong plugged into that receptacle which undoubtedly is for the tub. This is not typical, right? I'm not crazy in going WTF when I saw it, right?
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Aug 4, 2021 18:27
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vibur posted:This is not typical, right? I'm not crazy in going WTF when I saw it, right? This is Certainly Wrong and absolutely defeats the entire point of having a GFCI there. Unless you've got metal water pipes, all the fault current goes through the ground wire and returns to the GFCI neutral and everything's fine.  Follow the instructions on the GFCI and you'll be safe enough. If the GFCI pops nonstop when the tub is in use, then you know it was installed improperly and is a danger to everyone who has ever known about it.
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Aug 4, 2021 18:55
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vibur posted:Our main bathroom has what is basically a closet for the toilet. In that closet was a blank face GFCI outlet. I asked an electrician that was here doing other work about it and he said it's providing GFCI for the circuit the jacuzzi tub is on (which we'll likely never use). Let me write down what I think I'm seeing here: You pulled a blank faceplate off the wall and discovered a 5-15 outlet facing into the wall, with something plugged into it. There may or may not have been a whole bunch of exposed wires just sort of loosely hanging out, including a black wire a few centimeters away from a bare copper wire. I don't know if it's WTF to have an outlet facing inward. I think probably this is bad, because the 5-15 is not meant to be a permanent connection. Another hint, to my amateur mind, is that they are called "outlets" and they are not called "inlets". But you should wait for someone else to reply. Exposed black (hot) wires is definitely WTF and you need to fix that. I'm also a little concerned that you have what looks like neutral wired to ground, which would be the second photo of this in two pages, in which case I am going to call "bingo" and claim my EV Doubler.
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Aug 4, 2021 19:37
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vibur posted:Our main bathroom has what is basically a closet for the toilet. In that closet was a blank face GFCI outlet. I asked an electrician that was here doing other work about it and he said it's providing GFCI for the circuit the jacuzzi tub is on (which we'll likely never use). Wait a second, did you already remove a GFCI outlet and then you found a second outlet behind it facing into the wall, when you took this photo?
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Aug 4, 2021 19:40
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This is tripping me out. They make blanked GFCIs for this exact purpose but they needed to save the tens of dollars and put an outlet backwards? I would also love to know what's going on with those exposed wires.
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Aug 4, 2021 19:42
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Literally nothing about that picture is okay. That receptacle that the jaccuzi pump is plugged into should be mounted in a separate box in the space under the tub and accessible through a door or removable panel. Preferably that access should be the exact same door or panel that permits access to the pump assembly for when that needs service. It should never, ever be hanging loosely out of the back of a box that's apparently missing its backside. And there shouldn't be a ground neutral bond, and the wires should be properly wrapped around the screws. That's a rip it all out and do it right situation there.
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Aug 4, 2021 19:50
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corgski posted:Literally nothing about that picture is okay. The baseboards look pretty nice to me 
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Aug 4, 2021 19:53
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I think we're all missing the lede, which is that the tub is plugged into that outlet, which means the power cord is being run through the wall, which is also a big-nono. And if the justification was to GFCI protect that circuit... well that's not even a GFCI outlet.
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Aug 4, 2021 20:28
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FISHMANPET posted:I think we're all missing the lede, which is that the tub is plugged into that outlet, which means the power cord is being run through the wall, which is also a big-nono. And if the justification was to GFCI protect that circuit... well that's not even a GFCI outlet. I'm increasingly of the opinion that there were *two* outlets in this box. One facing outward, with the GFCI stuff. One facing inward, into which the hot tub was plugged with a 5-15. The three wires we see went to the GFCI. However, the inward-facing plug was not wired to be "downstream" of the GFCI, so the GCFI was probably sending it good vibes (it was close so not much loss of vibe energy due to distance) but not doing anything else. Still a mystery: is the ground wire going to the neutral side of the inward-facing plug? Was it just floating there in the box, right next to the neutral terminal? Where is the GFCI's ground wire connected? Is the hot tub wire going through the wall or does it come out on the other side of the wall, run down the floorboard, and then go back into the wall and into the hot tub? Is the inward-facing plug upside-down, or did they instead wire hot to the neutral side and neutral to the hot side? cruft fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 4, 2021 |
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Aug 4, 2021 20:39
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Yeah I think you're right, I didn't realize this was a thing since I've never seen it strolling through the electrical aisles at Home Depot or Menards, but Blank Face GFCI is real.
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Aug 4, 2021 20:42
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FISHMANPET posted:Yeah I think you're right, I didn't realize this was a thing since I've never seen it strolling through the electrical aisles at Home Depot or Menards, but Blank Face GFCI is real. Oh yeah, check it out, the dangly bit where you'd fasten the outlet to the receptacle box has been broken off the outlet.
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Aug 4, 2021 20:45
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Extra deep old work boxes were a mistake 
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Aug 4, 2021 20:48
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Note that a 'hydromassage bathtub' (as it's called in the NEC) must be on it's own (GFCI-protected) circuit. You can't go branching off that to run your heated butt washer or whatever unless you disable the tub circuit.
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Aug 4, 2021 20:58
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FISHMANPET posted:I think we're all missing the lede, which is that the tub is plugged into that outlet, which means the power cord is being run through the wall, which is also a big-nono. Oh no I noticed that which is why I said there needs to be service access into the cavity under the tub. A handy box with a GFCI-protected receptacle for the pump mounted inside an unfinished cabinet also containing the pump assembly is fine. It ceases being fine when you completely enclose it like most cut rate jacuzzi tub installers do because people want a clean finish in their bathroom.
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Aug 4, 2021 20:59
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vibur posted:Our main bathroom has what is basically a closet for the toilet. In that closet was a blank face GFCI outlet. I asked an electrician that was here doing other work about it and he said it's providing GFCI for the circuit the jacuzzi tub is on (which we'll likely never use). That's incredible.
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Aug 4, 2021 21:09
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Man this thread has delivered the last couple of days...
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Aug 4, 2021 21:29
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B-Nasty posted:Note that a 'hydromassage bathtub' (as it's called in the NEC) must be on it's own (GFCI-protected) circuit. You can't go branching off that to run your heated butt washer or whatever unless you disable the tub circuit. Hey op, this is actually a big deal for your butthole-squirting plans. It means you need to run a whole new circuit, which is probably going to be a pain in the rear end, and that's something you're explicitly trying to avoid with the bidet. If I may be so bold, we've had a cold-water-only bidet attachment for the last 15 years and it really only took about a month for us to get used to the water being cold. That might be worth trying out for a while, could save a lot of electrical work. You absolutely have to fix this janky wiring now, though.
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Aug 4, 2021 21:41
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movax posted:Good point -- no reason to not think ahead. Service is 200 A, yep. Also polite bump for this question here, if any of you fine folk could spare a moment or two!
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Aug 4, 2021 23:32
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cruft posted:I'm increasingly of the opinion that there were *two* outlets in this box. One facing outward, with the GFCI stuff. One facing inward, into which the hot tub was plugged with a 5-15. This is essentially correct. Before I pulled the blank face GFCI off, there were no wires dangling free. What you're seeing here is the receptacle in its this-is-a-job-for-someone-licensed state. The ground does not go to the neutral of the 5-15R. It only looks that way because of the angle. It was connected to the 5-15R's ground screw. The bare copper coming up behind the 5-15R was connected to the GFCI's ground screw and the GFCI blank face was upside-down. I'm currently of a mind to unplug the tub and wire the outlet as it should be for now. We have a series of things an electrician needs to look at anyway so wiring the tub properly can be done then and we'll just go without for the time being. We're really shower people anyway.
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Aug 5, 2021 00:32
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vibur posted:I'm currently of a mind to unplug the tub and wire the outlet as it should be for now. We have a series of things an electrician needs to look at anyway so wiring the tub properly can be done then and we'll just go without for the time being. We're really shower people anyway. Yes, unplug the tub and drop the cable in the wall, replace the box with a brand new old work box that hasn't seemingly had the back cut out of it to accommodate a molded plug being pushed through it, and install a brand new 5-15 duplex receptacle with a GFCI. Everything currently in that picture should be thrown out.
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Aug 5, 2021 00:41
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cruft posted:Hey op, this is actually a big deal for your butthole-squirting plans. It means you need to run a whole new circuit, which is probably going to be a pain in the rear end, and that's something you're explicitly trying to avoid with the bidet. I can second the hell out of the cold water bidet. There is nothing more refreshing than a cool spray of water on your b hole the morning after spicy wings night.
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Aug 5, 2021 03:47
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