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Do you prefer the extended summer thread format? This poll is closed. |
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Just Another Lurker posted:Trans athletes competing in their chosen gender events are the only niggle i have in my 53 year old brain regarding gender identity. I feel the same way. People who then try and talk about sports and gender show they haven’t a clue about sports and athletic ability. Dabir posted:IMO the divisions shouldn't be gendered, they should be based on some other physical measurement like weight categories in boxing. Those would probably be heavily correlated with gender, but importantly, not 100%. Say goodbye to all women competing at the highest levels of most sports then. Borrovan posted:Luckily the policy was made by an Actual Expert, basically what does & does not confer an advantage is poorly understood, save that AMAB athletes are likely to be bigger & testosterone probably has some advantage (but probably far less than people make out), so there's absolutely no basis to exclude trans female athletes who have had normal female t-levels for a while in any sport with weight categories (& in other sports we don't see the need to exclude tall strong women anyway so why treat trans women differently?). There’s a ton of evidence, it’s just been ignored. If you give someone 10 years of anabolic steroids, and then they come clean for 12 months, they will have a significant life time advantage over someone who didn’t have said anabolic steroids. A man having the T levels of a man has that advantage for life, and it is utterly unfair on women who didn’t have that T level growing up female if they then have to compete against a trans female with that advantage. (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-24730151) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) willie_dee fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Aug 4, 2021 |
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Aug 4, 2021 04:28
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Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics since (I think) the 70s. How many Olympic athletes have there been in that time? How many of those were trans? How many of those trans athletes won medals? Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Aug 4, 2021 |
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Aug 4, 2021 04:36
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willie_dee posted:Say goodbye to all women competing at the highest levels of most sports then. let me know when we're saying hello to them
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Aug 4, 2021 04:53
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Sports aren't fair though, like the idea that just anybody could become a world class olympic athelete if they tried is clearly nonsense. If you go around trying to metricise who is "fairly" advantaged by their life circumstances and who isn't then you're just going to end up with the sport being the "usain bolt running event that only he is allowed to compete in because everyone else is disqualified by our phrenologist" or whatever. Or rather more likely, as is already being demonstrated, who is "fair" to compete and therefore allowed to win, only reflects the prejudices of the olympic committee, thus rendering the titles even more meaningless than they already are. Congratulations on being the best thrower except for all the people we decided weren't allowed to be good throwers. And also all the people who could have been good throwers but didn't have a bunch of money spent on them to make them into good throwers. Here's a medal. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Aug 4, 2021 |
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Aug 4, 2021 07:02
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willie_dee posted:I feel the same way. People who then try and talk about sports and gender show they haven’t a clue about sports and athletic ability.  ), at which point see Guava's post.As I said, the effects of testosterone are poorly understood save that it's likely to be far less significant than people make out. Sure it's likely to feed into muscle mass, and AMAB trans athletes are likely to have more muscle mass, but that's a function of size. There is absolutely no evidential basis to think that an 87kg trans woman is stronger than an 87kg cis woman. Unless you cherry pick studies, or rely on some "stands to reason" bullshit that the evidence just doesn't justify, at which point, see Guava's post. I already made that point about weight categories though, and you apparently completely ignored it, which honestly just makes me think about Guava's post. So let's talk about sports without weight categories, which is a completely different argument. There totally is some evidence that AMAB athletes are likely (note, "likely", it's a trend, not an absolute) to be bigger and stronger than cis female athletes. Do you think it would be fair to exclude unusually tall/strong cis athletes from women's events? Why, and why do you feel the need to treat trans athletes differently? What if I were to point out that there is a small, poorly understood, and increasingly contradicted body of evidence suggesting that black athletes have some kind of biological advantage over other athletes - do you think that this would justify excluding black women from women's events? Obviously not, because that's obviously racist. Why does the same logic not apply to trans women? In fact, the exact same logic does indeed apply, so I'm just going to pre-empt where the argument usually goes from here: Kokoro Wish posted:Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics since (I think) the 70s. Which brings us to the reason why we have gender divisions in the first place. Dabir posted:IMO the divisions shouldn't be gendered, they should be based on some other physical measurement like weight categories in boxing. Those would probably be heavily correlated with gender, but importantly, not 100%. I'm just gonna drop it here because hopefully you wouldn't try to argue that trans athletes should be excluded from sports where there is no physical advantage from size/strength/whatever anyway, but the same principles generalise into other sports. We should encourage everyone, especially people from marginalised groups, to participate in sports, it'd be really cool to see more trans athletes, and in the complete absence of any evidence that it'd prevent cis women from competing despite decades of letting trans women compete, there is absolutely no reasonable basis to disagree. Unless, see Guava's post.
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Aug 4, 2021 07:42
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The only Latin I remember from school is "Caecillius est mortus". That and "iste mons", because there was a kid in my class with the surname Mountain and he was endlessly ribbed about "that wretched mountain".
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Aug 4, 2021 08:11
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willie_dee posted:I feel the same way. People who then try and talk about sports and gender show they haven’t a clue about sports and athletic ability. You don't say.
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Aug 4, 2021 08:19
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Borrovan posted:There are no cis men claiming to be trans in order to win women's events, and allowing trans athletes to compete does not prevent cis women from winning. If you're relying on some "stands to reason" bollocks, then gently caress off, I want evidence that there is a problem before I'll even consider that excluding a marginalised group might not be bigoted. We do allow trans athletes to compete, and yet there isn't evidence of a problem, so there is no basis to exclude trans people here either. I was responding to the guy above me, btw. So let me clarify. Trans women have been able to compete legally at the highest levels of competition, at least in the Olympics, for decades. It would stand to reason that if being trans had a major benefit to sporting events, then trans athletes would be more prominent, and win more. They don't. Cis women win more often than not in direct competition. That means there's not really a problem with trans people competing in sports, in my view. That there are problems with testosterone measurement limits and the like that exclude cis women, as well as trans women, is another matter. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Aug 4, 2021 |
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Aug 4, 2021 08:20
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Puer in piscinam cadit. (The boy falls in the fishpond). That’s about all I remember from my 2 years of Latin. I enjoyed what was called the classical culture element, which was basically Roman history.
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Aug 4, 2021 08:36
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I don't read latin, but I imagine "Et tu, Brutus" was the old school "Ah, gently caress; I can't believe you've done this!"
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Aug 4, 2021 08:49
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Cambridge Latin course scarred for life crew. They pulled an emmerdale and annihilated half the cast in pompeii
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Aug 4, 2021 08:54
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Brutus you rat! You weren't unsheathing your pugio to cut artolaganus! You were winding up to give me the ol' spicy backstab!
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Aug 4, 2021 08:54
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Kokoro Wish posted:I was responding to the guy above me, btw. So let me clarify. 
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Aug 4, 2021 08:58
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StarkingBarfish posted:Cambridge Latin course scarred for life crew. They pulled an emmerdale and annihilated half the cast in pompeii Ending with the dog guarding his (dead) master “frustra” - in vain 
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Aug 4, 2021 09:00
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There is a really simple idiots way of explaining the trans women in sport thing. If a person born a Cis man replaces testosterone with Estrogen all sorts of weakening poo poo happens to them from bones to muscles. The rules that let trans women compete in the olympics factor in the time this takes to happen before they are allowed to compete. This is why the nice trans weight lifter got absolutely bodied at the highest level. The Cis women she beat to get there, and who have been pissing and moaning about it, would have been rofflestomped too.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:01
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StarkingBarfish posted:Cambridge Latin course scarred for life crew. They pulled an emmerdale and annihilated half the cast in pompeii Oxford course represent. Will Scintilla ever stop working in the home?
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Aug 4, 2021 09:01
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I mean history had a little bit of a hand in that ending.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:05
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The only reason most people in my class did Latin was for the end-of-year trip to Pompeii, by night train. Which was very much a rite of passage for a bunch of 14-year-olds. And we got to visit Caecilius' actual house, which was fun.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:13
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Bobstar posted:The only reason most people in my class did Latin was for the end-of-year trip to Pompeii, by night train. Which was very much a rite of passage for a bunch of 14-year-olds. And we got to visit Caecilius' actual house, which was fun. Your school sounds awful.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:15
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Bobstar posted:The only reason most people in my class did Latin was for the end-of-year trip to Pompeii, by night train. Which was very much a rite of passage for a bunch of 14-year-olds. And we got to visit Caecilius' actual house, which was fun. Am I the only one who thought of this? https://youtu.be/WuZmpN1wTwk
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Aug 4, 2021 09:18
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Trans people make up a low percentage of the population and Olympic athletes make up an even lower percentage so I can't see it really being a problem until we get some breakout trans person dominating a sport. One situation that I think is trickier is high contact sports like rugby, wrestling, boxing etc. where a testosterone difference could lead to a higher chance of injury. I know there's been some studies on transwomen in rugby and how it may be a concern to have someone with much higher muscle density causing injuries during hard tackles. Like most people I don't really know of a solution, Maybe a trans category for those sports but I don't think there's enough people to make it worth it. Maybe some measure of comparative muscle density but that would functionally be the same as excluding trans people. The real answer is nobody is allowed to do competitive sport and we just build and fight giant robots like in Japan.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:26
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I think I'm the only left person on my FB who thinks Latin in schools is a good thing. Firstly, it underpins a lot of other languages, French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian just for starters. It also gives a good grounding in grammar making it easier (in my experience) to get a grip on learning other languages (I guess because I have a mind that likes equations & formulae- I see grammar as the equations/formulae of language)- eg it helped me learn Arabic quite a bit faster than other Brits/Americans I know in Egypt whose arabic was basically a collection of nouns and pointing at things) and I found it helpful in following conversations. Secondly, much as people always praise sport - boxing or football especially - as giving working class kids a way out of a limited future, my dad, bunking off from the ONC (modern equivalent would be BTec) evening classes he was supposed to be taking in connection with his apprenticeship in a Coventry tool-making factory to go study for Latin and Greek O-levels in the local public library instead, gave him a way out from a life of factory work for which he was very ill suited, and into a 'middle class' (albeit low paid) profession. Sport isn't the only way out of a doomed life.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:28
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Kokoro Wish posted:I was responding to the guy above me, btw. So let me clarify. You're absolutely correct . According to a tweet I just saw, rules were put into place by the IOC governing trans athletes in 2004, and since then there have been 57000 Olympic athletes and Laurel was the first trans athlete to qualify for an olympics.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:32
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There is one overwhelming fact about trans women in Rugby and sports like it which gets ignored because it’s not numbers or BIOLOGY. Trans athletes are not stupid, they don’t want to injure people while playing sport, and coaches wouldn’t put them on the team if they did.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:32
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I feel like the problem with people sustaining serious injury in contact sports is that we encourage people to run around and fling themselves at each other for money. Like either you want to do that and consider it an acceptable risk to yourself or you are financially incentivized to do it even if you don't want to do it, in which case the problem is the financial incentive.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:32
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learnincurve posted:There is a really simple idiots way of explaining the trans women in sport thing.  ". There's definitely the suggestion that any advantages are probably more to do with size than anything else, but a lot more research is needed to really get to the bottom of it.Thing is though, I don't really think that's necessary, because of Kokoro Wish's point. Trans women are not outcompeting cis women, therefore, there is not a problem. End of.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:36
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It's really a lovely catch 22 as well, as soon as a trans athlete becomes successful you get all the terfs complaining about an unfair advantage, ignoring all the non successful ones.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:39
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like the problem with people sustaining serious injury in contact sports is that we encourage people to run around and fling themselves at each other for money. Well I suppose the problem is some of the athletes signed up to being tackled/punched by people of comparable size and strength. If you introduce a category of competitors that can cause you more severe injuries then I can see why there might be concern. Again right now it's all academic until there's a case of it happening.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:42
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Borrovan posted:Honestly, the evidence just doesn't really bear that out. There's some studies suggesting that, and there's some studies suggesting the opposite. Pretty much all of them have methodological issues, and the best meta-analyses all conclude a resounding " You really need to check your sources, because all the evidence I’ve seen from the LGBT+ community shows that trans women get weaker if they go on meds, all the evidence from bleating terfs says the opposite because of course it does. Talk to https://twitter.com/sportisaright?lang=en
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Aug 4, 2021 09:44
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I wonder if all these athletes loving rampantly at every olympics will eventually create a stable population of superhumans. I know that Russia and China have, at times, tried to do this deliberately.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:48
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Butternubs posted:Well I suppose the problem is some of the athletes signed up to being tackled/punched by people of comparable size and strength. If you introduce a category of competitors that can cause you more severe injuries then I can see why there might be concern. That's where the argument for weight classes comes in though. A cis woman isn't likely to complain that she's up against a much larger cis woman who could wreck her poo poo so why is it different if it's a trans woman?
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Aug 4, 2021 09:49
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Butternubs posted:Well I suppose the problem is some of the athletes signed up to being tackled/punched by people of comparable size and strength. As a short and formerly skinny person who used to play a contact sport, this was never the case. Attackers used to decide the best way past my defence was to run straight into me and keep going.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:49
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I absolutely detested Latin in school and firmly believe that classes to learn it are morally equivalent to necrophilia. It is a language sent to earth by the devil to torment schoolchildren. That said, I loved Classical Studies and it's a real shame that as a subject it has basically died in state schools. I'm not sure if the plans to bring back Latin are also brining back Classics, but if so it would be worth it in my opinion. A good Classics course really captures the essence of a good arts education because of its cross-disciplinary style; there's no other subject that covers drama, history, speech, philosophy and politics all in a single course, and a good teacher helps connect those things together--how does history inform philosophy, how does philosophy inform politics, and so on. You miss out on that when every subject is siloed out into its own class as you get in the rest of school.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:50
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Also as mentioned above, people will happily ignore all the injuries that occur up until a trans athlete is involved and then suddenly that's why the injury happened. As if sports are not already absolutely rife with athletes suffering terrible injuries as a consequence of playing the sport.
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Aug 4, 2021 09:52
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learnincurve posted:You really need to check your sources, because all the evidence I’ve seen from the LGBT+ community shows that trans women get weaker if they go on meds, all the evidence from bleating terfs says the opposite because of course it does. The stuff that I've read is mostly from sports scientists almost all of whom are trans. I've not read the studies myself because I'm not a data scientist or expert in research methods, but my partner is both of those things & the meta-analyses she's looked at say exactly the same thing as the trans sports scientists (unsurprisingly). e: I just read Dr Ivy's recent piece on the subject in Philosophical Topics from the Twitter account you linked, since it's a philosophy journal it doesn't require a buttload of expertise to understand like hard science papers do, honestly it doesn't sound like we've got any disagreement here
Borrovan fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Aug 4, 2021 |
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Aug 4, 2021 09:57
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Butternubs posted:Well I suppose the problem is some of the athletes signed up to being tackled/punched by people of comparable size and strength. If you introduce a category of competitors that can cause you more severe injuries then I can see why there might be concern. There are already huge disparities. In the current Lions/SA rugby series you have players like Alun Wyn Jones (1.98m, 122kg) playing against Cheslin Kolbe (1.71m, 80kg). The disparities are probably larger now than ever but rugby has always had very large players playing with/against much smaller, lighter ones.
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Aug 4, 2021 10:05
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Reveilled posted:I absolutely detested Latin in school and firmly believe that classes to learn it are morally equivalent to necrophilia. It is a language sent to earth by the devil to torment schoolchildren. I agree with all that about Classical studies. Also, some of the classical literature is pretty racy, war stories etc. I guess one of the things nobody's mentioned is would it be an option or compulsory. There are subjects at school which I had zero interest in or use for which I was forced to study because they were compulsory for girls: needlework - why do I need that? A stapler and double-sided tape does me fine. Cookery. I hate cooking and avoid it as much as possible. Biology - boring boring boring. Why being a girl means I have to suffer the inutterable boredom of learning about spirogyras, amoebas, stigmas and stamens, and cut up bulls' eyes (I don't think they do that anymore in schools), I do not know. Subjects I loved such as maths, being forced to choose between chemistry and history (loved history but with my plans to do physics at uni, I figured o-level chemistry was more useful). In the girls' school I was at for my O-level year (I went to several secondary schools as my folks kept moving) - you had to choose between physics & geography (all but 5 girls chose geography - I was chucked out of O-level geog in the school before that because in 1973 I wrote an essay suggesting we cultivate food on Mars - I was ahead of my time. The teacher mocked me and refused to allow me in O-level geog - at that school the choices were different. Now of course NASA are looking at cultivating food on Mars.... so middle finger to YOU Mr Cooper.
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Aug 4, 2021 10:10
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StarkingBarfish posted:Cambridge Latin course scarred for life crew. They pulled an emmerdale and annihilated half the cast in pompeii Didn't the Doctor Who episode in Pompeii do basically this?
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Aug 4, 2021 10:13
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If you had done better at Latin you could have been Tom Hiddleston https://twitter.com/heintgestae/status/1405253898911338506?s=20
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Aug 4, 2021 10:21
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 Grumio est coquus
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