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Edge cases are fun https://twitter.com/FSD_in_6m/status/1400207129479352323
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Aug 5, 2021 19:10
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SniperWoreConverse posted:Wait didn't they play off the terrible crashes at least partly by saying autopilot doesn't actually automatically pilot the car and the driver has to be ready to grab control? yeah ive been a passenger in a tesla and the scariest part of autopilot is when the driver has to take control suddenly and i'm never sure how much control they actually have over it
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Aug 5, 2021 19:13
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No one could have prevented it. The best race car driver couldn't have prevented it. The most advanced AI supercomputer couldn't have prevented it. That boulder is inhuman. e, teslas think the moon is a traffic light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UF-S2czdCk
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Aug 5, 2021 19:14
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also teslas dont know what railroad crossings are so it sees a magical teleporting traffic light
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Aug 5, 2021 19:14
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SniperWoreConverse posted:Wait didn't they play off the terrible crashes at least partly by saying autopilot doesn't actually automatically pilot the car and the driver has to be ready to grab control? Tesla says in the fine print "the driver must always be ready to take control from the car at any moment," while heavily implying through advertising that you can sit back and zone out. You very obviously can't; people very obviously do because that's how humans work. Here is another situation where an attentive human driver would have avoided the accident, or at least started braking, but the car didn't pick up on anything wrong: https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1418031064778424325 The autopilot system in a tesla usually disconnects about 0.5 seconds before the actual impact -- you can hear the distinctive "bing-bong" in every autopilot crash video. Tesla does not report these incidents as crashes associated with autopilot, because technically the driver was in control at the moment of the crash. Seriously. The NHTSA has changed the rules recently so that any crashes happening within 60 seconds (? might be 30) of autopilot usage must be reported as autopilot-related. If Tesla actually follows the law and starts reporting those, look for the numbers to spike dramatically.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:18
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Sagebrush posted:
Hahahaha oh man https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1418031064778424325 ‘Brake: no’ until that point in the accident should be criminal hellotoothpaste fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Aug 5, 2021 |
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Aug 5, 2021 19:21
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Sagebrush posted:Tesla says in the fine print "the driver must always be ready to take control from the car at any moment," while heavily implying through advertising that you can sit back and zone out. You very obviously can't; people very obviously do because that's how humans work. I've probably said it here before, but self driving where the driver needs to intervene in a moment is the most dangerous because it leads to the driver not having to do anything for the majority of the time and humans will succumb to boredom and passivity, not being prepared to intervene.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:26
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hawowanlawow posted:I dunno what you're talking about with the push button thing though, all the ones I've seen are in the same spot as the keys were see also: Toyota ca. 2010 wolrah fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 5, 2021 |
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Aug 5, 2021 19:28
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Sagebrush posted:"not realistically preventable by the driver" Cojawfee posted:The only way for a human driver to mess up that turn is if they aren't paying attention and don't turn. Are they arguing that tesla autopilot is inattentive? They're saying that by the time the driver realizes that something is wrong (that the autopilot is obviously hosed) and they take manual control, there's not enough margin-for-error left that the driver actually has time to do anything to prevent the crash. [E;F,B] And the autopilot doesn't fight you--you instantly have control when you take it (or at least I found that to be the case). Full disclosure: I have a model 3--it's a cool car, and I've had less trouble and hassle with it than any car I've ever owned. I also don't have FSD but have tried it out during trial periods--it's pretty slick (and NHTSA and other evaluations argue that it's statistically safer than someone driving normally), but I didn't feel like paying for it and I enjoy driving. (It's also a work in progress and people who turn it on and go to sleep or jack off or mess with their phone are dumb as gently caress.) Elon Musk is a clueless techbro billionaire and I wish he'd quit saying stupid poo poo and quit being a dipshit, but I like my car. This obviously makes me a horrible human being and a complete idiot and rear end in a top hat. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edit: changed words re: safety to not derail poo poo. VVV Thanks man! Good tidings to you and your family as well! aas Bandit fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Aug 5, 2021 |
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Aug 5, 2021 19:28
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It does make you an idiot yes.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:29
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The "autopilot only looks for lines that seem to behave like pairs of lane lines" thing reminds me of an anecdote about an early (1980s) DARPA project to make self-driving humvees. They started with something similar to the video contrast tracker on a Maverick anti-tank missile, which works pretty well at staying locked onto a bright heat source in its field of view, and modified it to look for pairs of parallel lines, assuming that it would find the edges of the road and stay in the middle. This was adequate for a truck convoy in the dirt where you don't have to worry about traffic or whatever. It reportedly worked fairly well in the desert testing grounds, so they took it to some other bases in more forested areas, whereupon the line seeker found that tree trunks have even more tempting parallel edges and would try to steer the vehicle directly into the closest tree. So good on Tesla for matching the state of the art in image recognition in 1985 I guess. Uthor posted:I've probably said it here before, but self driving where the driver needs to intervene in a moment is the most dangerous because it leads to the driver not having to do anything for the majority of the time and humans will succumb to boredom and passivity, not being prepared to intervene. Yes, absolutely. This is why real manufacturers have things like eye-tracking cameras that start vibrating the seat and slowing the car down if it's on assisted cruise and the driver's attention wanders away from the road. Tesla does the regulatory minimum, requiring periodic detection of a torque on the steering wheel to prove the driver is paying attention. You can buy weights on Amazon that will effectively simulate this torque, or apparently you can just jam an orange into one side of the wheel and that's good enough. aas Bandit posted:(and statistically safer than someone driving normally) Prove this. Provide any evidence that isn't from a Tesla forum/fan club or an Elon tweet.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:33
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Everything I hear about Teslas make them seem like rolling nightmares. You’d think they wouldn’t be allowed on the road.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:34
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not gonna read all that but i'm happy for you or sorry that that happened
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Aug 5, 2021 19:40
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Z the IVth posted:I was reading a recommendation not to charge past 80% regularly anyway to preserve battery life? Most EVs do this by themselves. They have a 10-15ish% capacity over their advertised total that they dont charge up to in order to prevent overcharges/complete discharges, both of which hurt the battery plenty. Theres still a recommendation to charge up to ~80 to save on battery life despite that. Also for things like working regen brakes like the Bolt owner upthread. Invalid Validation posted:Everything I hear about Teslas make them seem like rolling nightmares. You’d think they wouldn’t be allowed on the road. Yeah theyre trying to do a lot of things without proper redundancy and making up for it in marketing. Other cars with self driving have at least 2-3 driver focus monitoring systems, tesla just sees if theres torque/weight on the steering wheel. They dont even use the drivers seat weight sensor. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Aug 5, 2021 |
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Aug 5, 2021 19:50
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Sagebrush posted:It reportedly worked fairly well in the desert testing grounds, so they took it to some other bases in more forested areas, whereupon the line seeker found that tree trunks have even more tempting parallel edges and would try to steer the vehicle directly into the closest tree. Ha! I know this predates machine learning, but reminds me of the program that learned to tell photos of wolves and dogs apart by looking for snow on the ground.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:50
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haveblue posted:Edge cases are fun Beat saber is getting absurd.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:52
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Uthor posted:Ha! I like the one that was supposed to identify cancerous vs. non-cancerous skin tumors, but turned out to just be a ruler detector because cancerous lesions were always photographed with a ruler beside them. Here's a big list of Why We Must Not Trust "AI" Systems: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRPiprOaC3HsCf5Tuum8bRfzYUiKLRqJmbOoC-32JorNdfyTiRRsR7Ea5eWtvsWzuxo8bjOxCG84dAg/pubhtml
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Aug 5, 2021 19:55
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Sagebrush posted:Prove this. Provide any evidence that isn't from a Tesla forum/fan club or an Elon tweet. I'm not going to get off into Tesla safety arguments in the OSHA thread, but wanted to at least respond to you. I can only cite studies. (And I changed the wording in my previous post and included the link below.) There are folks arguing different things and reaching different conclusions. Here's one from NHTSA arguing for a lower crash rate. There are other ones from private companies and other agencies agreeing, and also studies and research out there that say NHTSA and the others are full of poo poo. No one is going to "prove" anything any time soon. If you want to argue further about it PM me and I may or may not respond.
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Aug 5, 2021 19:59
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wolrah posted:They're talking about how if you have a runaway situation with a vehicle that has push button start, the fact that you need to press and hold the start/stop button for a few seconds to turn off the engine is non-obvious and unintuitive to basically anyone other than computer people, where a traditional key made it easy and obvious. Most push button starts also respond to rapid button pushing by cutting the engine so at least they're getting better.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:04
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hawowanlawow posted:I dunno what you're talking about with the push button thing though, all the ones I've seen are in the same spot as the keys were I've never seen one that's in the same spot as the key is. Pushbutton starters are usually located on the dash, a key starter is located on the steering column. But it's not the location that's the point, it's the behavior. If you're faced with runaway acceleration, one method to stop it that will absolutely 100% succeed is to turn off the engine. This is a control that everyone's familiar with: you reach down to the key, which you had to insert and turn to start the car, and turn it in the opposite direction. Done. Over. Situation resolved. Turning the key to 'off' is also something you are vanishingly unlikely to do when you do *not* want to turn off the engine. But that's not the case with pushbutton starters. It's way easier to inadvertently push a button than it is to turn a key, and it would be bad for bumping that button to turn off the car, so manufacturers like Toyota who moved to push-button starters had to change the interface: now you push the button to start the car, but to turn the car off you *push and hold* the button. So you had people in runaway acceleration incidents who tried to turn their cars off by doing the obvious thing, pushing the button to turn the car off, unaware that the control had been made modal, and than pushing the button once the car is on doesn't actually do anything. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-feb-10-la-fi-toyota-pushbutton11-2010feb11-story.html Phanatic fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Aug 5, 2021 |
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Aug 5, 2021 20:05
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aas Bandit posted:I'm not going to get off into Tesla safety arguments in the OSHA thread, but wanted to at least respond to you. I can only cite studies. (And I changed the wording in my previous post and included the link below.) There are folks arguing different things and reaching different conclusions. Here's one from NHTSA arguing for a lower crash rate. There are other ones from private companies and other agencies agreeing, and also studies and research out there that say NHTSA and the others are full of poo poo. No one is going to "prove" anything any time soon. If you want to argue further about it PM me and I may or may not respond. This study is from 2016 and it's talking about automatic emergency braking and steering functionality -- the last-second dodge/brake maneuver that all cars with AEB perform. It shows that cars equipped with AEB have reduced crash rates over those without it. This is a completely different statement from "cars driving on autopilot are safer than human drivers." AEB is a safety feature. Tesla's current implementation of self-driving is an anti-safety feature. No I will not PM you to "may or may not respond" lmao. Get over yourself.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:08
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they should put a plaque with all the names of auto pilot death early adopters, inside the toilet pod on his space rocket they send to mars or whatever.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:11
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Invalid Validation posted:Everything I hear about Teslas make them seem like rolling nightmares. You’d think they wouldn’t be allowed on the road. That's because Tesla and its owner have a lot of detractors looking for anything to complain about, and there is a lot to complain about because mass producing a car is hard and Elon makes weird design decisions based solely on if he thinks something is cool. Of all the quality control issues and dumb design decisions, I haven't seen anything that would be unheard of for a Ferrari though. I watched a video about Waymo (linked below) that talked about back when Google was only letting employees test out the self driving prototypes and told everyone "we, your employers, have cameras in the car to ensure you are constantly paying attention this car that is definitely not ready to drive itself" it didn't matter and everyone was still sleeping/reading while the car did its best. Turns out "pretty good" self driving is really dangerous because you can't trust people regardless of how you market it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjztvddhZmI
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Aug 5, 2021 20:13
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ILL Machina posted:Physical and biometric data is collected after each explosion so, rest assured, hatching will be supported in the next patch. 
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Aug 5, 2021 20:20
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Phanatic posted:I've never seen one that's in the same spot as the key is. Pushbutton starters are usually located on the dash, a key starter is located on the steering column. I have a Jeep with a key on the dash. My mother has a Porsche with a key on the dash (on the left side too because Le Mans). If you've driven the car a few times the button/key could be under the seat and you would still instinctively reach for it. Turning off the car should only be a last ditch effort anyway because it disables power steering and you only get to press the brake once or twice before the booster runs out of vacuum.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:24
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Your brake booster won't have any vacuum anyway if the throttle is stuck open. Regardless: it's yet another reason it's good for cars to have a mechanical lever that can physically disconnect the engine from the wheels. Or two, even!
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Aug 5, 2021 20:25
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Turning off the car will also engage the steering wheel lock.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:26
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Sagebrush posted:This is a completely different statement from "cars driving on autopilot are safer than human drivers." I'm sorry reading's hard. Text (and pictures!) toward the end re: data indicating improved safety after autosteer installation. Go off though. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 5, 2021 20:31
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Sagebrush posted:Your brake booster won't have any vacuum anyway if the throttle is stuck open. Only if its completely wide open when it gets stuck. Not that any of this really matters since most unintended acceleration is someone stomping on the wrong pedal and realizing their mistake if there wasn't a convenience store right in front of them.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:34
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yeah there are a lot of old people who bring their Lexuses in complaining about unintended acceleration when their car is drive by wire
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Aug 5, 2021 20:37
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I'm not disputing anything that you wrote, but I am idling wondering if this could be a generational problem. To me, "hold the button down" is the natural gesture to force something off. I do it on my PC, I do it with my phone, I do it with my Fitbit.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:38
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Uthor posted:I'm not disputing anything that you wrote, but I am idling wondering if this could be a generational problem. To me, "hold the button down" is the natural gesture to force something off. I do it on my PC, I do it with my phone, I do it with my Fitbit. I mean, its already almost exclusively old people who can't find the correct pedal and then blaming "the computer", so of course the also haven't turned off an electronic device in 25 years.
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Aug 5, 2021 20:41
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Far be it from me to rain on the poo poo-on-Tesla parade, but after owning one for a little over a week I just don’t see the reason for it. I’m absolutely not a diehard Tesla fan, and if Ford dealers weren’t actively seeking to avoid selling anyone a Mach-E (no, I don’t want a hybrid Escape), I probably would have ended up with one of those instead. Yes, the company cares about you as a consumer exactly as much as any other tech company with a physical product. Yes, Elon Musk should be sent into space forever along with the rest of the techbro billionaires who can’t shut up about dumb poo poo. No, the product is not appreciably worse, at least in my experience, than any other car I’ve ever owned. It has some drawbacks (it’s academically interesting that they do auto wipers and auto high beams with ML instead of a normal sensor, but it’s slower to react than my wife’s Nissan), but does some other things much better (lane keeping drives almost exactly how I would on the freeway, and even reacts to a large truck edging into your lane by scooting over). I don’t expect the car to drive itself because I understand what present technology can and can’t do, and when I have the lane keep assist turned on, it notices whether I’m paying attention via the camera just like Ford and GM. As for quality issues, I have to have the coat hook replaced next week because it won’t stay latched (what a disaster). I’m not uncomfortable with the vehicle because I understand comparative risk. The most recent non-Tesla non-EV-related publication I could find with actual figures was a Business Insider article from 2019, counting 20 Tesla fires between 2013 and early 2019. The same article quoted the FEMA as reporting 171,500 vehicle fires between 2014 and 2016 (so extrapolated for the same time period, it would be about 2.5 times that number). Tesla fires are always covered ad nauseum by the news. It’s absolutely terrible that the new Model S caught fire a month or two ago, but Tesla alone sold 200,000+ vehicles in that same quarter. There just isn’t data to support EVs going off like fireworks. Sonic Dude fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Aug 5, 2021 |
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Aug 5, 2021 20:49
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Cat Hatter posted:Turning off the car should only be a last ditch effort anyway because it disables power steering and you only get to press the brake once or twice before the booster runs out of vacuum. 1. Power steering is a convenience, not a necessity, and it is entirely possible to steer a car without power steering all day long. Especially at highway speeds, where you barely need to move the wheel at all to do things like change lanes or get over on the shoulder. 2. If you're in a runaway acceleration and you're going to stop the car with the brakes, then pressing them only once, as hard as you possibly can, is the thing to do. Even on cars with ridiculous amounts of power the brakes are capable of exerting way more torque and then the engine and will easily overpower it. Where people get into trouble is by using the brakes a little bit, oh that's not working, better brake harder, oh that's not working either, and then by the time they do go full-on the brakes they've faded due to heat and now they're not stopping. That's when it's time to turn off the engine. 3. Except oh you pushed the button and that doesn't work because you're not pushing it the correct number of times or not pushing it and then holding it it for long enough and neither of things are anywhere near as obvious as the simple and common interface of turning a key from "ON" to "OFF."
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Aug 5, 2021 20:56
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My Tesla caught fire and my baby was in the back seat Love the car tho
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Aug 5, 2021 21:00
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Ya know if your car won’t stop accelerating you should put it in neutral and coast to a stop.
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Aug 5, 2021 21:04
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Just slam it into reverse
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Aug 5, 2021 21:05
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ILL Machina posted:Physical and biometric data is collected after each explosion so, rest assured, hatching will be supported in the next patch. Watchdogs 2 is one of those Charlie's Angela moments where you realize the big threat was realized a couple years later but even dumber and more evil.
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Aug 5, 2021 21:06
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Sonic Dude posted:Far be it from me to rain on the poo poo-on-Tesla parade, but after owning one for a little over a week I just don’t see the reason for it. I’m absolutely not a diehard Tesla fan, and if Ford dealers weren’t actively seeking to avoid selling anyone a Mach-E (no, I don’t want a hybrid Escape), I probably would have ended up with one of those instead. Lol you wanted to buy a Ford
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Aug 5, 2021 21:12
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cool story. hope your family doesn't get locked in and immolated
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Aug 5, 2021 21:12
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