Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

Baronjutter posted:

Well its making ME rich on paper, so now I have extremely strong opinions on housing. No new development, it will hurt the neighbourhood character. I'm deeply concerned about our housing crisis but more housing isn't the answer. What we really need is lower property taxes but more policing.

You'd get even more for your land if it was rezoned for development. The fact that SFH owners aren't lobbying endlessly for the city to upzone their neighbourhood for apartments shows that there's a lot more motivating people than the land lift gains.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 00:55

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 04:37

Bi-la kaifa: Feb 4, 2011; Space maggots.

We purposefully bought in an area that's slated for high density development. They're putting a big hospital down the street and there's nothing else but huge lots and SFH around it. My neighbours all want to NIMBY away their only chance of cashing out ahead. Unbeknownst to them we're selling as soon as someone offers a hot mil to build some apartments or some poo poo. Why wouldn't you take advantage? You want to live on a busy road with sirens going in and out all hours of the day?

# ? Aug 7, 2021 01:11

Hubbert: Mar 25, 2007; At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

qhat posted:

I think we need to hang landlords from their balconies.

I don't think the strata bylaws allow that.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 03:40

Crow Buddy: Oct 30, 2019; Guillotines?!? We don't need no stinking guillotines!

Juul-Whip posted:

I'll aspire pure nitrogen before I aspire to live in loving Vernon

Seconding this.

And big ole same for Penticton.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 03:43

MeinPanzer: Dec 20, 2004; anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

With respect to Victoria, Langford isn't even really affordable any more -- already five or so years ago I started hearing about friends starting families who were actively searching in Sooke because they couldn't buy in Langford. Nanaimo sounds like it's going the same direction too. Absolutely insane.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 11:49

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

MeinPanzer posted:

With respect to Victoria, Langford isn't even really affordable any more -- already five or so years ago I started hearing about friends starting families who were actively searching in Sooke because they couldn't buy in Langford. Nanaimo sounds like it's going the same direction too. Absolutely insane.

Even Sooke is starting around 700k these days for a dump, 800-900k for something move-in ready. The only place you can "drive until you qualify" is directly into the sea.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:22

Claes Oldenburger: Apr 23, 2010; Metal magician!

The big issue is downpayment. At current rates you can get a 30 year mortgage on a 750k place with 20% down and your mortgage payments are going to be about 2k/mo. If you're a family, renting is going to cost more than that. Housing has a lot of other expenses of course, but imo that's why prices are starting at that point, it's just the cost of rent but as a mortgage.

The issue is 20% down on that place is 150k, so the only people in the first third of their lives with that much cash either got lucky, got help from their parents, or both. The chances of someone who has that privilege also being able to afford 2200-2500/mo in mortgage+property tax are pretty high. That combined with people selling places on the mainland and moving over (like us, or retiring boomers) and it jacks everything up out of the reach of anyone starting from scratch without any help.

Honestly though, next week is the 4th place we've had to get a pre-inspection and pre-tank scan on, and then lost to bids exceptionally higher than us. We'll see how it goes but if this one doesn't work out, it unfortunately might just be out of reach for us.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:11

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

Baronjutter posted:

Even Sooke is starting around 700k these days for a dump, 800-900k for something move-in ready. The only place you can "drive until you qualify" is directly into the sea.

Now that you mention it I have heard that life is better, down where it's wetter, under the sea.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 04:38

HookShot: Dec 26, 2005

Claes Oldenburger posted:

The big issue is downpayment. At current rates you can get a 30 year mortgage on a 750k place with 20% down and your mortgage payments are going to be about 2k/mo. If you're a family, renting is going to cost more than that. Housing has a lot of other expenses of course, but imo that's why prices are starting at that point, it's just the cost of rent but as a mortgage.

The issue is 20% down on that place is 150k, so the only people in the first third of their lives with that much cash either got lucky, got help from their parents, or both. The chances of someone who has that privilege also being able to afford 2200-2500/mo in mortgage+property tax are pretty high. That combined with people selling places on the mainland and moving over (like us, or retiring boomers) and it jacks everything up out of the reach of anyone starting from scratch without any help.

Honestly though, next week is the 4th place we've had to get a pre-inspection and pre-tank scan on, and then lost to bids exceptionally higher than us. We'll see how it goes but if this one doesn't work out, it unfortunately might just be out of reach for us.

This is 100% correct.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 05:00

sitchensis: Mar 4, 2009

My partner and I just bought a place in Metro Vancouver so now the market is going to tank huzzah

# ? Aug 8, 2021 05:56

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

sitchensis posted:

My partner and I just bought a place in Metro Vancouver so now the market is going to tank huzzah

I thought the same thing when I bought 3 years ago lol. The sun never sets etc. etc.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 06:08

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

We�ll

qhat fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Aug 8, 2021

# ? Aug 8, 2021 10:41

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

leftist heap posted:

I thought the same thing when I bought 3 years ago lol. The sun never sets etc. etc.

The sun never sets on the British (Columbian FIRE) Empire, the new home of fiery sunsets.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 20:03

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

If I could go back in time 10 years I'd post a warning to you all: "buy now or be priced out forever "

My advice today is probably the same. If housing is ever affordable here you'll be too busy fighting off mutant raiders to take advantage.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 20:07

Lexicon: Jul 29, 2003; I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

Baronjutter posted:

If I could go back in time 10 years I'd post a warning to you all: "buy now or be priced out forever "

My advice today is probably the same. If housing is ever affordable here you'll be too busy fighting off mutant raiders to take advantage.

It pains me to admit it, but all the realtor types making this claim a decade ago were in fact spot on.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 21:46

linoleum floors: Mar 25, 2012; Please. Let me tell you all about how you're all idiots. I am of superior intellect here. Go suck some dicks. You have all fucking stupid opinions. This is my fucking opinion.

Broken clock etc

Guess what ten years ago I had zero savings and was making 25k a year

# ? Aug 8, 2021 21:49

Mantle: May 15, 2004

10 years ago I had -$30k net worth and was unemployed. Couldn't afford a house

Now I have $500k invested and household income of $200k. Still can't afford a house

# ? Aug 9, 2021 01:26

HookShot: Dec 26, 2005

I was sure the market was going to crash as soon as I bought about a year ago.

Instead my townhouse has gone up 30% in value.

# ? Aug 9, 2021 01:46

Purgatory Glory: Feb 20, 2005

Well, one thing that has been true for a decade has been steadily dropping rates. If they are now normal forever then buy buy now. If they are not then then at least you can get some schadenfreude of people losing their homes.

# ? Aug 9, 2021 15:41

midge: Mar 15, 2004; World's finest snatch.

Purgatory Glory posted:

If they are not then then at least you can get some schadenfreude of people losing their homes.

The downside here is the people who have been propping up this bullshit for a decade won't be the ones that lose their *primary* home...nor will it be all that big of a deal for them. It's the desperate folks that, under the circumstances, made a pressured decision and lose everything.

# ? Aug 9, 2021 17:17

Mantle: May 15, 2004

midge posted:

The downside here is the people who have been propping up this bullshit for a decade won't be the ones that lose their *primary* home...nor will it be all that big of a deal for them. It's the desperate folks that, under the circumstances, made a pressured decision and lose everything.

Yes, let's have pity on those low-income landlords.

# ? Aug 9, 2021 18:17

Slotducks: Oct 16, 2008; Nobody puts Phil in a corner.

midge posted:

The downside here is the people who have been propping up this bullshit for a decade won't be the ones that lose their *primary* home...nor will it be all that big of a deal for them. It's the desperate folks that, under the circumstances, made a pressured decision and lose everything.

oh no won't someone thinking of the poor helpless defenseless speculators!!?!?!

# ? Aug 9, 2021 20:35

MeinPanzer: Dec 20, 2004; anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

My dad works for a Victoria area municipality and he was telling me about how he just had to put a stop work order on a property that had 5 garden suites, 4 of them illegal, and a trailer on it, charging the full market rate for a 1 bedroom apartment for each.

Very cool, very normal real estate market.

# ? Aug 9, 2021 21:06

McGavin: Sep 18, 2012

Why does your dad hate the homeless, preventing a hard working landlord from helping them out like that?

# ? Aug 9, 2021 21:14

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

The prudent and humble mom-and-pop housing providers of Vancouver

# ? Aug 9, 2021 22:02

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

From the group 'BC Landlords', incase anyone didn't realize landlords were the pettiest bastards;

# ? Aug 10, 2021 03:39

RBC: Nov 23, 2007; IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888

missing: the landlord telling everyone since his tenant left he can now raise the rent by $300 a month

# ? Aug 10, 2021 12:36

half cocaine: Jul 22, 2019

quote:

ft.com
�My flat is now a commodity�: Berlin to vote on seizing rental properties
Erika Solomon in Berlin and George Hammond in London August 9 2021

House prices are rising in many major economies. This FT series explores whether these increases are sustainable.

Lorena Jonas has spent the past eight years fighting landlord rent rises in her trendy Berlin district. Her latest battle, though, could affect not just her neighbours but hundreds of thousands of tenants across the city.

Jonas is involved in a radical campaign urging Berlin�s city government to expropriate 240,000 properties from Germany�s biggest publicly listed residential landlords, accusing them of squeezing out lower income, long-term residents through shoddy maintenance and jacked-up rents.

After collecting more than 350,000 petition signatures, their proposal � which targets corporate landlords with more than 3,000 apartments each � will be voted on in a local referendum in September. Polling suggests nearly half of Berliners support expropriation, which would force the companies to sell their properties to the city government at a �fair� price.

�What does it mean that my flat is now a commodity on the stock market, where the goal is to draw as much profit as possible for shareholders?� said Jonas, who lives in a property in Kreuzberg owned by Berlin�s biggest listed landlord Deutsche Wohnen, the main target of the campaign. �These questions are now resonating across Berlin, and beyond.�

Although still small compared with the vast US publicly listed residential sector, corporate landlords such as DW are on the rise across Europe, as the world�s biggest property investors hunt for the stable income which the rental business can provide.

As a result, the market capitalisation of Europe�s publicly listed residential property sector has grown from �3.5bn in 2006 to nearly �85bn at the end of July this year, according to the European Public Real Estate Association.

More than half of Germans rent their homes � the second highest rate among OECD countries � and as house prices rise around the world, making home ownership less affordable, the ranks of renters are swelling elsewhere too. Across the EU nearly a quarter of households lived in market-priced rented accommodation in 2019, the latest figures available, according to Eurostat.
Line chart of % of households in EU, by type of accommodation showing Europe's rental market is growing

�Unless we find some mechanism of continuing to transfer property from landlords to tenants [via home ownership] . . . you get a more unequal society split between the people with equity in housing and those without,� said Yolande Barnes, a professor at University College London�s Bartlett Real Estate Institute.

Few cities have yet proposed measures as radical as those in Berlin�s September ballot. But many face similar problems: companies and entrepreneurs buying up and renovating old properties, then selling off units at lucrative mark-ups.

Berlin, once known for anarchist squatters� communes and freewheeling techno clubs, has become an attractive investment. Existing buildings� rents have shot up by as much as 43 per cent over the past five years, making it increasingly unaffordable for the 86 per cent of Berliners who rent.

Nearly 125,000 of the city�s rental units were converted into owner-occupied homes between 2011 and 2020, according to recently published estimates by Berlin�s senate. Last year was the biggest yet: 19,310 units vanished from the rental market.
Bar chart of Annual change in average rent, 2020 (%) showing Apartment rents are rising in many major European cities

The expropriation initiative is based on Article 15 of the German constitution, which says �land, natural resources, and means of production� can be reclaimed for public ownership, in exchange for compensation; it has never before been tested in practice.

The proposal will pass if at least a quarter of eligible voters cast a majority of votes in favour. But even if the activists win, the senate is only politically, not legally, bound to act. And as the clause is untested, it will spark contentious debate as to its constitutionality.

Critics argue that expropriation is divisive, economically nonsensical and potentially illegal.

Tobias N�fer, board chair at the Berlin-Brandenburg Architectural and Engineering Association, said the city was being divided by an idea he called �political extremism�. But he agreed Berlin needed tougher regulations against speculation, noting that many buildings had been bought by wealthy investors, then left vacant.

�We need discussions around how you deal with public land � do you just sell it to the highest bidder? Because you could end up with an empty and very expensive inner city,� he said.

Deutsche Wohnen said the initiative was counterproductive: �Funds and resources would be tied up for decades in compensation payments and thus lost to the construction of urgently needed housing.� Its rental prices respect city regulations and 82 per cent of tenants it surveyed are satisfied, it said.

Municipal officials estimate compensation payments to landlords would cost about �36bn. Campaigners say between �8bn and �18bn would be fair.

Joanna Kusiak, an urban sociologist at Cambridge university who is also a Berlin resident and expropriation campaigner, called it a �unique confrontation�. �This is expropriating financial corporations on a big scale,� she said. �No one�s ever done it before.�

She argued that expropriation could stimulate the economy, by using rents to fund the construction of more flats. �What we are for is using the income from rents to build more houses, rather than use [it] to build shareholders� fortunes.�

A growing rental sector could create a long-term financial burden for governments in the form of housing welfare subsidies for retirees who never managed to get on the housing ladder, Barnes warned.

The expropriation bid is not the first time Berlin has been at the forefront of Europe�s battle to subdue urban rental costs. Last year, the city tried to impose a rent cap but Germany�s highest court recently struck it down, arguing such powers lie with the federal government.

Critics ridiculed that attempt as an economically destructive flop but it has spurred a nationwide movement for a federal rent cap.

And some campaigners argue that viewing housing costs in purely economic terms misses a fundamental point.

�Housing is not a luxury,� said Christian, an organiser at Berlin�s Renters Union, who did not want to state his last name due to legal battles with landlords. �It should be a human right � just like access to drinking water, education or health.�

https://www.ft.com/content/ad96da11-d012-440a-b1d9-05718aac47a5

We can't do this because it will destroy our profits!

# ? Aug 10, 2021 14:01

Fidelitious: Apr 17, 2018; MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

qhat posted:

From the group 'BC Landlords', incase anyone didn't realize landlords were the pettiest bastards;

Got a little vomit coming up there when seeing landlords refer to exploitation of housing as "our industry". An industry must produce something of value and landlords produce nothing.

Anyway, expropriating private rentals would be awesome as hell.
Something as basic and critical as housing cannot be morally run as a means of profit and the existing hodgepodge of social housing and rent subsidization is not sufficient.

I recall reading a prediction a few years ago that the US would have fully nationalized rentals by 2030. The theory was that as government put more and more restrictions in place to protect tenants that it would eventually only be viable for the government to be the landlord. Maybe a bit optimistic but considering rent control, no winter evictions, no credit or criminal checks allowed, etc. in certain areas I could see it happening. And perhaps this could also lead to a bit more stabilization in housing prices if you no longer have people buying 'investment' properties.

# ? Aug 10, 2021 14:45

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

Hey turns out that a reason why housing keeps getting worse, is that the Federal government's housing strategy is super ineffective.

quote:

Canada�s housing strategy having �limited� impact on housing need, PBO says

The federal government has spent less than half of the funding earmarked for a pair of flagship housing programs as the need for affordable homes grows along with a yawning �affordability gap,� says Canada�s budget watchdog.

Program lags at the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC), expired community housing deals with the provinces and a shift toward pricier affordable homes have �limited the impact� of the Liberals� national housing strategy, budget officer Yves Giroux said in a report Tuesday.

Since 2018, the CMHC, which oversees the bulk of the three-year-old plan, spent 49 per cent of the $1.2 billion allocated for the National Housing Co-Investment Fund and the Rental Construction Financing Initiative.

The former provides a mix of loans and forgivable debt to those building affordable homes and multi-use projects, and the latter supports new rental housing builds across Canada.

Ottawa topped up overall expenditures on its national housing strategy by nearly one-quarter for an average of $3.7 billion annually over the past three years. Despite the spending ramp-up, the government is falling short of its aim to vastly expand Canada�s affordable housing stock, the report states.

Giroux projects that the number of households in need of an adequate or affordable place to live will increase to about 1.8 million within five years unless more funding flows toward the problem. The affordability gap � the difference between the cost of a housing unit and the price a low-income Canadian can afford � is slated to rise by 24 per cent to $9.4 billion over the next five years, he calculates.

Heftier personal savings, house-obsessed millennials and historically low interest rates during the COVID-19 pandemic have conspired to send residential prices soaring amid a dire shortage of units, and threaten to boost rents when provincial freezes thaw.

The average home-sale price in Canada rose 26 per cent year over year in June to $679,000, with sales activity up by 14 per cent, according to the Canadian Real Estate Association.

In April, housing advocates welcomed the budget�s one-year, $1.5-billion extension of the popular Rapid Housing Initiative. The year-old program funds construction of modular homes and conversion of existing properties into residences, creating 4,500 units so far � 1,500 more than planned.

However, Conservatives say the report shows the Liberals failed to meet their targets or make homes more affordable, calling the programs �delayed, mismanaged and ineffective.�

�Flashy announcements and promises of ever-increasing spending will not fix the housing affordability crisis in Canada. We need a housing plan in Canada that gets homes built and empowers Canadians to be able to own a home in their lifetime,� Tory housing critic Brad Vis and Conservative House leader Gerard Deltell said in a statement.

They noted that despite the increase in overall funding, the CMHC�s assistance for housing need programs targeting low-income households rose by $192 million per year � which actually represents a 15 per cent drop in the purchasing power of federal spending in a white-hot real estate market, the report found.

As CMHC operating agreements with various provinces expired, the agency also effectively dropped 183,000 low-income community housing units � 42 per cent � from its support roster.

The NDP called the Liberal housing strategy �smoke and mirrors.�

�More and more Canadians find themselves unable to afford a home and the pandemic has made things even worse. Today�s report confirms that the Liberals are failing Canadians on housing while patting themselves on the back for a job well done,� New Democrat housing critic Jenny Kwan said in a release.

Kwan has criticized the National Housing Co-Investment Fund for failing to help provinces outside of Ontario.

Data she obtained last fall showed nearly 74 per cent of the financing for loans and grants has gone to Ontario projects from its inception in May 2018 to June 2020.

Advocates have also said the Rental Construction Financing Initiative favours for-profit developers who build expensive units over not-for-profits that have trouble securing the required collateral.

As of last October, the CMHC had committed to creating 12,230 affordable housing units under the two programs, with nearly two-thirds of them capped at 72 per cent of median household income � well above the roughly half of median market rent mandated for the other one-third, according to Giroux�s report.

In April, the federal budget promised $2.4 billion over five years, beginning with nearly $1.8 billion this fiscal year, for affordable housing and followed through on a pledge to tax foreigners who own vacant homes in Canada.

The Liberal government�s 10-year housing strategy, which kicked off in 2018-19, �is marketed as a �$70-billion-plus plan� that includes the budgetary cost of loans and channels $36.7 billion to the CMHC, Giroux�s report says.

Time to fire the ~~underperforming~~ total asshat on twitter Housing Secretary Adam Vaughan? oh wait the PM already did that.

https://twitter.com/CBCToronto/status/1424489245562052608?s=20

Femtosecond fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Aug 11, 2021

# ? Aug 11, 2021 01:37

Noblesse Obliged: Apr 7, 2012

Adam Vaughan is the Ur-liberal and has spent his entire life pushing the commodification of housing from the moment his maggot soul ran in 2006

I hate him more than any Ford. Ford�s are low beasts who just follow their ignorant nature. Adam Vaughan chooses evil every day

Every time he speaks of affordable housing I hope his stay in hell gets a millennium longer

So he�s 100% running for mayor of Toronto

# ? Aug 11, 2021 01:54

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

He's only going to be replaced with an equally worthless rear end in a top hat with an even larger position in real estate most likely.

# ? Aug 11, 2021 01:55

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

house-obsessed millennials

# ? Aug 11, 2021 04:13

RBC: Nov 23, 2007; IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888

qhat posted:

He's only going to be replaced with an equally worthless rear end in a top hat with an even larger position in real estate most likely.

mark carney lol

# ? Aug 11, 2021 12:08

Fidelitious: Apr 17, 2018; MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

leftist heap posted:

house-obsessed millennials

Goddamn millenials wanting to live in houses. They're ruining everything.

# ? Aug 11, 2021 13:29

Cold on a Cob: Feb 6, 2006; i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually; College Slice

My fave brand of boomer are the ones saying "Millennials just need to suck it up and get used to the new reality" while they slowly rot in their big empty single family homes.

# ? Aug 11, 2021 14:24

Slotducks: Oct 16, 2008; Nobody puts Phil in a corner.

Boomers are getting together for one last job. One last stab at the greatest concentration of wealth in the country: Housing.

Oceans 1954

# ? Aug 11, 2021 17:42

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Cold on a Cob posted:

My fave brand of boomer are the ones saying "Millennials just need to suck it up and get used to the new reality" while they slowly rot in their big empty single family homes.

My parents didn't help me buy my first house in 1978 and I didn't feel entitled to a university education, why should my kids expect a handout?
*rots alone in 6 bedroom house while my daughter, a single mom with 3 kids is forced to rent a 2br apartment while paying off crippling student loans*

Capitalism ensures optimal distribution of resources.

# ? Aug 11, 2021 18:26

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

These people are simultaneously usually the first to demand government action when it looks like the tides capitalism are about to wipe out their highly leveraged "investments". There isn't a lot things in the world that are more despicable than a fair weather capitalist.

# ? Aug 11, 2021 18:41

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 04:37

Purgatory Glory: Feb 20, 2005

Baronjutter posted:

My parents didn't help me buy my first house in 1978 and I didn't feel entitled to a university education, why should my kids expect a handout?
*rots alone in 6 bedroom house while my daughter, a single mom with 3 kids is forced to rent a 2br apartment while paying off crippling student loans*

Capitalism ensures optimal distribution of resources.

This is why you're hearing even the boomers whose homes have skyrocketed in value complain. It's put them in a position to either help out or be considered a greedy pig. A lot would prefer their kids be able to do it on their own.

# ? Aug 11, 2021 19:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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