|
I think it's less that they can do engineering to make hosts and more the example that they can go from parasites to true symbiotes with a thriving civilization as existing proof that it works it's more the social idea of "no this is actually perfectly valid and you can't pretend it away against this evidence" more so
|
# ? Aug 5, 2021 18:57 |
|
|
# ? May 26, 2024 14:16 |
|
Fuschia tude posted:Sure, but it's a clear demonstration of the possibility: the Hork-Bajir know the Arn made them, and the mist monsters (and that they self-modified to prevent their own infestation); that's part of the H-B's widespread cultural knowledge, which the Yeerks would know as soon as they start infesting. Plus they already use the Arn as slave labor in that book; they could force them to teach, or at least learn from the technology that they have. The Hork-Bajir (except for Dak Hamee and the nothlit Aldrea) don't know that the Arn exist. They think they were created by Mother Sky and Father Deep, and to go into the mist layer means to be eaten by monsters. You can say that Jara Hamee had that knowledge, because as a literary device, he was able to recite the story verbatim to Tobias, and his former host would know, but the Hork-Bajir in general seem ignorant of the Arn or genetic engineering.
|
# ? Aug 5, 2021 19:47 |
|
Fuschia tude posted:It feels unlikely for no one to realize that, though. Everyone fighting this war may be the new post-Seerow generation, born in space, but it also seemed clear from Visser Three's account in that book that they don't particularly care about or limit Yeerks' access to all their collected data. Putting this together is barely even 2+2. I guess it's theoretically possible that none of the pacifist Yeerks has also ever stumbled across this information from the H-B planet, but it feels like intentional ignorance by author fiat. Pretty much. I figure its just one of those things that happens in a long running series like this.
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 01:04 |
|
Chapter 18quote:A smell like oil and mothballs and … I'm pretty sure this is Jake's nightmare, isn't it? Cassie being left alone to be killed? Chapter 19 quote:The peregrine falcon is the fastest animal on Earth. Faster than the cheetah or gazelle. Faster than the fastest dolphin or shark. Faster than any bird. In a dive it can break two hundred miles an hour. Splat?
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 04:41 |
|
quote:“The Yeerks don’t know about this,” Cassie said. “Even the Yeerks who want peace cannot imagine a way out, a way to end the cycle of conquest.” I can think of a way to escape your blind slug form without the need for bioengineering symbiotes or enslaving another creature!
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 06:06 |
|
That's kinda genocide though if you think about it though
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 07:07 |
|
We haven't heard anything about the Howlers having super-healing, right? I feel like the solution to this war is not going to be physical violence, but just to pop the hood and examine the internals of this fight, one of the few advantages the Animorphs might have here is that they can get life-threatening wounds, over and over, and as long as they can morph out, they can keep going. If a Howler gets its eyes destroyed by a hawk, it's probably not getting those back anytime soon. Attrition.
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 16:14 |
|
Bobulus posted:We haven't heard anything about the Howlers having super-healing, right? I feel like the solution to this war is not going to be physical violence, but just to pop the hood and examine the internals of this fight, one of the few advantages the Animorphs might have here is that they can get life-threatening wounds, over and over, and as long as they can morph out, they can keep going. If a Howler gets its eyes destroyed by a hawk, it's probably not getting those back anytime soon. Attrition. They do. From Chapter 11: quote:I gathered myself for a leap. But Ax was faster. His tail snapped, crack!
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 16:32 |
|
Bobulus posted:We haven't heard anything about the Howlers having super-healing, right? I feel like the solution to this war is not going to be physical violence, but just to pop the hood and examine the internals of this fight, one of the few advantages the Animorphs might have here is that they can get life-threatening wounds, over and over, and as long as they can morph out, they can keep going. If a Howler gets its eyes destroyed by a hawk, it's probably not getting those back anytime soon. Attrition. Even if true, in a 7v1 fight they didn't cause any credible injuries to take advantage of later.
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 16:33 |
|
They have healing like wolverine
|
# ? Aug 6, 2021 18:35 |
|
pile of brown posted:That's kinda genocide though if you think about it though I meant the morphing technology
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 02:53 |
|
freebooter posted:I meant the morphing technology I did too, either they're reverting to slugs every 2 hours and also still need to visit a kandrona pool every 3 days or they're nothlits locked into a bunch of random forms that can't interbreed, or would have to all assume the same form, and one that's sentient/intelligent to continue as a race that's not really Yeerks anymore. 2/3 of those options amount to the end of the Yeerks as a species.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 03:05 |
|
I wonder how many other kids' book series delineate a spectrum of genocide. e: while I think of it- what was the kids' books scene like at the time? I became a Pratchett and Tolkien nerd pretty early on, so I don't really remember what else was out there for kids. Animorphs had to be an outlier, right? Tree Bucket fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Aug 7, 2021 |
# ? Aug 7, 2021 03:33 |
|
Goosebumps was the other series I was getting from the scholastic book fairs/catalog at the time
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 03:57 |
|
Piell posted:Goosebumps was the other series I was getting from the scholastic book fairs/catalog at the time Yeah pretty sure Goosebumps and Animorphs were like the #1 and #2 sellers from those catalogues and anything else was a distant third. At least, those were the only things I ever looked for. But my tastes are disgustingly mainstream, so.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 04:25 |
|
pile of brown posted:I did too, either they're reverting to slugs every 2 hours and also still need to visit a kandrona pool every 3 days or they're nothlits locked into a bunch of random forms that can't interbreed, or would have to all assume the same form, and one that's sentient/intelligent to continue as a race that's not really Yeerks anymore. 2/3 of those options amount to the end of the Yeerks as a species. HB Chronicles suggests there's a significant number of them that are happy just chilling out in the pool and don't want hosts, though. Tree Bucket posted:I wonder how many other kids' book series delineate a spectrum of genocide. Harry Potter would be a big one, though I don't recall that actually becoming a phenomenon until the fourth book which I think was 2000, as Animorphs was wrapping up. In Australia I remember John Marsden's Tomorrow series being very big and I would have read it around the same time - an unnamed foreign country invades and occupies Australia and it follows a group of kids waging guerilla warfare. Definitely struck the same tones as the Animorphs in terms of death, killing, PTSD etc, but I think it was aimed more at high school aged kids than middle school.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 04:28 |
Tomorrow also had reasonably explicit sex, so yeah, definitely an older audience.
|
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 04:51 |
|
Chapter 20quote:Down, down, down. Just something I noticed here. Something the Animorphs don't do....a moral line they drew for themselves, is that they don't acquire sentient beings without their consent. I don't think they ever broke that beefore, but Jake does now. It seems significant somehow, especially because he's doing it pretty much out of pure rage and the desire to kill. That's the whole, "I should have felt sorry for him, but I didn't, not after Cassie had a wing burnt off and Marco was shot." sort of thing. The last line also makes me think of a bit from The Fifth Elephant by Terry Pratchett. For those who don't know anything about the book, the main character is sent to a part of the world that's sort of a fantasy Transylvania and during it, he uncovers this conspiracy. One of the people involved in it is a werewolf supremacist named Wolfgang, who's already killed a bunch of people, and now, as a wolf, is trying to kill Vimes. Vimes kills him by basically throwing a flare at him. Wolfgang's animal instincts kick in and he catches the flare, which then explodes. quote:When the body had stopped rolling, Vimes looked around the square. People were watching from the coaches. The crowds were silent. Chapter 21 quote:I could see why the Iskoort had built their Dr. Seuss towers. The surface of the planet was a reeking, swampy mess of a place. I gained altitude to get above the sulfur smell, but then had to rest. So they finally get their first kiss. It's...kind of sweet. Also, you've got Jake's meditation on why the Pemalites didn't reprogram the Chee to kill, and he's asking the question about what "out of control" means.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 05:00 |
|
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 06:26 |
First kill, first kiss
|
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 07:38 |
|
Epicurius posted:Just something I noticed here. Something the Animorphs don't do....a moral line they drew for themselves, is that they don't acquire sentient beings without their consent. I don't think they ever broke that beefore, but Jake does now. It seems significant somehow, especially because he's doing it pretty much out of pure rage and the desire to kill. That's the whole, "I should have felt sorry for him, but I didn't, not after Cassie had a wing burnt off and Marco was shot." sort of thing. I don't think that specific part of it is driven by his anger. He's figured out that in order to understand the Howlers they'll need to morph one of them. He even says before he goes after it, right time, right morph - it wasn't an opportunity that would come up again. Anyway it's probably the most memorable part of this book, and I think one of the most memorable scenes in the series. Just peak crazy stunt time.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 08:48 |
|
Their moral limits do change a lot during the series and I am pretty sure they actually morph and impersonate humans without their consent later. iirc, some soldiers or something
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:26 |
e X posted:Their moral limits do change a lot during the series and I am pretty sure they actually morph and impersonate humans without their consent later. iirc, some soldiers or something If we make it that far I'll point it out, but yeah.... they go a looooong way down that slope.
|
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:39 |
|
It's really hosed up how they treat Erek. Ok so maybe you dont respect pacifism but he and his buds are still amazingly powerful allies for a covert force like the Animorphs. When Erek broke his programming they all thought it was basically an atrocity and felt bad that he could never forget that horrific event. Despite this whenever Erek says "I am physically incapable of performing this action" they act disgusted with him like he is purposely not helping them out of cowardice.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 14:33 |
Pwnstar posted:It's really hosed up how they treat Erek. Ok so maybe you dont respect pacifism but he and his buds are still amazingly powerful allies for a covert force like the Animorphs. When Erek broke his programming they all thought it was basically an atrocity and felt bad that he could never forget that horrific event. Despite this whenever Erek says "I am physically incapable of performing this action" they act disgusted with him like he is purposely not helping them out of cowardice. Do you think it's maybe a sign that they are not quite right?
|
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 14:35 |
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:Do you think it's maybe a sign that they are not quite right? Them kids ain't right.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 14:48 |
|
Pwnstar posted:It's really hosed up how they treat Erek. Ok so maybe you dont respect pacifism but he and his buds are still amazingly powerful allies for a covert force like the Animorphs. When Erek broke his programming they all thought it was basically an atrocity and felt bad that he could never forget that horrific event. Despite this whenever Erek says "I am physically incapable of performing this action" they act disgusted with him like he is purposely not helping them out of cowardice. Animorphs do the dying; chee just do the flying
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 15:44 |
|
*wild shredder fire* <GIT SOME>
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 16:33 |
|
the Animorphs have been watching Howlers successfuly maim and attempt killing them and they would all be dead if they couldn't heal through morphing. Of course they'll be resentful towards the guy who is physically capable but ineffective.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 16:33 |
|
Pwnstar posted:It's really hosed up how they treat Erek. Ok so maybe you dont respect pacifism but he and his buds are still amazingly powerful allies for a covert force like the Animorphs. When Erek broke his programming they all thought it was basically an atrocity and felt bad that he could never forget that horrific event. Despite this whenever Erek says "I am physically incapable of performing this action" they act disgusted with him like he is purposely not helping them out of cowardice. That was significantly earlier in the series, before the kids had become inured to the violence and developed PTSD.
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 21:53 |
|
HIJK posted:the Animorphs have been watching Howlers successfuly maim and attempt killing them and they would all be dead if they couldn't heal through morphing. Of course they'll be resentful towards the guy who is physically capable but ineffective. The thing is he's physically not capable, though. He can't just turn his programming off even if, as a sentient being, he wanted to. edit - also re: morphing other humans, I remember precisely the first time one of them does it without consent and it seemed like a weird and unnecessary line to cross when I read it as a kid, but looking at it as an adult it's easily explained by the fact that it's Marco and he's flipping out because he just bumped into his mum again and doesn't want to lose the trail
|
# ? Aug 7, 2021 23:53 |
|
Chapter 22quote:At least Cassie and I provided Marco with material. It took him precisely three seconds after I 0parted from Cassie, embarrassed and amazed. He's got a plan AND he's letting Ax salvage his pride. Chapter 23 quote:The place we were in was all wrong for the trap. We needed Iskoort around us. We had to make the rules of engagement work for us. I explained it to Guide. He wanted to get paid more. We were running up a big bill, and we might well get killed before we could sell him our valuable memories. I have no idea how the Iskoort economy works. But they seem pretty happy about it. Also, this was a good and much overdue conversation between Jake and Ax, even though it wasn't a comfortable one.
|
# ? Aug 8, 2021 04:32 |
|
Epicurius posted:Chapter 22 Also, it's weird how I don't remember any of the second half of this book. This stuff seems pretty memorable! I wouldn't think I'd have stopped reading halfway through.
|
# ? Aug 8, 2021 07:18 |
|
Epicurius posted:I have no idea how the Iskoort economy works. Same as ours, silly!
|
# ? Aug 8, 2021 13:48 |
|
I also think it's showing why the Animorphs were picked instead of Andalites. I don't think Andalites would be thinking this heavily about their enemy, their history, and how they work. I think they would have gone ham in the first fight and lost.
|
# ? Aug 8, 2021 13:50 |
|
I actually found the earlier self doubting of "why us, why not some Andalite warriors" to be odd. They probably have a much more diverse array of combat experiences than any given Andalites, and I think they proved that on Leera, and I think they know that. They're more adaptable and more used to thinking outside the box. My money would be on the Animorphs any day.
|
# ? Aug 8, 2021 13:53 |
|
The Andalites are basically their version of "adults who know what they are doing"
|
# ? Aug 9, 2021 03:11 |
|
freebooter posted:I actually found the earlier self doubting of "why us, why not some Andalite warriors" to be odd. They probably have a much more diverse array of combat experiences than any given Andalites, and I think they proved that on Leera, and I think they know that. They're more adaptable and more used to thinking outside the box. My money would be on the Animorphs any day. Sure, they might if they stopped and really thought about it. But part of the point of this series is they don't, and can't. All their free time is spent fighting a war, and all the rest of the time they're trying to keep their cover and hold down a Plus, they don't have that wisdom and ability to consider things from a high level, for the most part, being children. This realistic depiction of their limitations and blind spots is part of what makes this series work, and it's been pretty good at it so far; their lack of ability to emphasize and really think outside their own heads, to consider things from the point of view of an outsider, was at the root of their problem with David a few books ago.
|
# ? Aug 9, 2021 03:41 |
|
Chapter 24quote:It took less than an hour. Well, this just makes stuff even more horriffic, huh? Chapter 25 quote:<Here they come!> Tobias yelled. <Thirty seconds. If -> "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”"-Genesis 2:15-17
|
# ? Aug 9, 2021 04:01 |
|
|
# ? May 26, 2024 14:16 |
|
Epicurius posted:Chapter 24 Oh, great. The corn people got to Applegate.
|
# ? Aug 9, 2021 05:13 |