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Judakel posted:to the democrats, apparently this is trot brain, don't fall for it. running jabari brisport as a dem and winning is in fact better than running jabari brisport as an independent and losing, among other reasons because it knocks a normal dem out of power there was a longer discussion in this thread pages ago about reading the dems as a party vs. as a brand or ballot line that idk if you followed, but to make a long story short even casting the dems and SAlt (or psl or austin red guards or whatever) as homologous entities such that they can even legibly compete for space is a mistake
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Aug 8, 2021 22:48
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Ferrinus posted:this is trot brain, don't fall for it. running jabari brisport as a dem and winning is in fact better than running jabari brisport as an independent and losing, among other reasons because it knocks a normal dem out of power "we're slowly taking over the party"
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Aug 8, 2021 22:49
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AnimeIsTrash posted:type of guy obsessed with trots in 2021
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Aug 8, 2021 22:52
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Judakel posted:"we're slowly taking over the party" regardless i think the point a lot of people miss is that everyone understands the importance of a mass socialist party and that the dems aren't and will never be one. the question is how to proceed given this, and that's a question SAlt and Tempest and whoever else don't actually engage with seriously because they're still stuck at "holy poo poo guys did you realize that joe biden supports capitalism??" square one and assume the only reason people don't give them the time of day is that they're the only ones to have made this stupendous discovery. gonna link this again: https://dsaemerge.org/on-the-party-question/
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Aug 8, 2021 22:56
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AnimeIsTrash posted:type of guy obsessed with trots in 2021 i'm just using this as an excuse to post the trot article about dsa making trot jokes because it's hilarious. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/05/18/pers-m18.html
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Aug 8, 2021 23:01
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fermun posted:i'm just using this as an excuse to post the trot article about dsa making trot jokes because it's hilarious. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/05/18/pers-m18.html lmfao, the entire article is about tweets with 10-20 likes quote:Many of the tweets by DSA leaders are illustrated with photos and memes of an alpenstock, the weapon used by Mercader to murder Trotsky.
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Aug 8, 2021 23:52
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Ferrinus posted:are we? did someone say that in the discussion about r38? i wasn't watching a stream of that part yeah you said it
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Aug 9, 2021 00:05
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Judakel posted:yeah you said it i don't think i said it
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Aug 9, 2021 00:07
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Ferrinus posted:i don't think i said it You did
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Aug 9, 2021 00:10
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well, i guess it's my word against yours
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Aug 9, 2021 00:13
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having been a member of both sa and dsa, and now only dsa, i’m pretty sure dsa is worse both as an organization and ideologically and it’s an embarrassment to socialists anywhere.
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Aug 9, 2021 00:16
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Ferrinus posted:well, i guess it's my word against yours your word was you saying it and then me confirming. we're on the same page
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Aug 9, 2021 00:19
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mawarannahr posted:having been a member of both sa and dsa, and now only dsa, i’m pretty sure dsa is worse both as an organization and ideologically and it’s an embarrassment to socialists anywhere. what is to be done?
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Aug 9, 2021 00:19
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Ferrinus posted:this is trot brain, don't fall for it. running jabari brisport as a dem and winning is in fact better than running jabari brisport as an independent and losing, among other reasons because it knocks a normal dem out of power There's effectively no difference between the sort of demsocs occasionally successfully being elected and (as you put it) "normal" dems. Unless people are actually using their political power to act in opposition to the rest of the Democratic Party, it's not any sort of meaningful progress (and at worst it's keeping people positively engaged with the Democratic Party - see: AOC). Regardless of whether it's the intent, by electing some random non-confrontational demsocs as Democrats, you're basically making people think that the Democratic Party is worth engaging with. The only situation where this wouldn't be the case is if the politician in question made it extremely clear that they are in opposition to the rest of the party, but this never seems to happen. I understand that it feels good to think "we're making progress" and that the people pushing back against this might seem like they're being overly cynical, but those people are pretty obviously correct if you look at things with clear eyes (rather than just focusing on the politicians' rhetoric and how they make you feel).
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Aug 9, 2021 00:24
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fermun posted:R38 was the resolution written by SAlt joiners, which is a large part of why it was voted down, I think, but it increased the requirements to get a DSA endorsement and then also was to make DSA a semi-party. R38 would have allowed for censure or removal from DSA of elected politicians that, after taking office, did not continue to meet the standards that the endorsement set. Delegates opposed to R38 rightfully pointed out that if R38 were to pass, AOC would be kicked out of DSA, and that also freaked out a lot of the delegates. R38 also required DSA to start creating infrastructure that would have allowed DSA to fully separate from ever running on the Democratic party line. This made a lot of people think that this was set up by SAlt as a conspiracy to get DSA to merge with SAlt in a couple years. Is there really no process to unendorse a candidate or kick them out of the DSA? Or was this more of a vote to formalize a process that can be used nationally?
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Aug 9, 2021 00:46
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ferrinus, what exactly is the goal of the dsa helping elect aoc et al to congress
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Aug 9, 2021 00:46
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i would be okay with electing people under the democratic party banner where they expose the bougie parliament for the enemy it is, but dsa supported candidates like aoc et al appear to be doing the exact opposite of this edit: in case it isn't clear, i'm not saying i believe this is possible comedyblissoption has issued a correction as of 01:02 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 00:49
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Ytlaya posted:There's effectively no difference between the sort of demsocs occasionally successfully being elected and (as you put it) "normal" dems. Unless people are actually using their political power to act in opposition to the rest of the Democratic Party, it's not any sort of meaningful progress (and at worst it's keeping people positively engaged with the Democratic Party - see: AOC). Regardless of whether it's the intent, by electing some random non-confrontational demsocs as Democrats, you're basically making people think that the Democratic Party is worth engaging with. The only situation where this wouldn't be the case is if the politician in question made it extremely clear that they are in opposition to the rest of the party, but this never seems to happen. Resolution 8, which passed 734-218, was to have DSA recruit people who will be confrontational with the rest of the Democratic party to run for state legislatures as the electoral policy for the next 2 years, and to have them consult with any chapters located in their district to help draft legislation. It also mandates that DSA create some state-level electoral organization so that DSA can run the campaigns for the state legislature candidates fully independent of Democratic party infrastructure. It also stated that the long-term goal is to break away from the Dem party line, but it doesn't set any sort of timeline. Still, I think that it's got some sort of concept behind doing something electorally and why and how and so it's not just randomly electing non-confrontational demsocs to congress. AnimeIsTrash posted:Is there really no process to unendorse a candidate or kick them out of the DSA? Or was this more of a vote to formalize a process that can be used nationally? formalize and streamline
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Aug 9, 2021 00:53
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The best thing DSA could do to improve their image is to boot the squad in its entirety and everyone making more than 100k a year.
Chuka Umana has issued a correction as of 01:15 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 01:12
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aoc must be kept around because it gives dsa need a seat at the table Democrats Supply Access
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Aug 9, 2021 01:16
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Ytlaya posted:There's effectively no difference between the sort of demsocs occasionally successfully being elected and (as you put it) "normal" dems. Unless people are actually using their political power to act in opposition to the rest of the Democratic Party, it's not any sort of meaningful progress (and at worst it's keeping people positively engaged with the Democratic Party - see: AOC). Regardless of whether it's the intent, by electing some random non-confrontational demsocs as Democrats, you're basically making people think that the Democratic Party is worth engaging with. The only situation where this wouldn't be the case is if the politician in question made it extremely clear that they are in opposition to the rest of the party, but this never seems to happen. this isn't really true since people like julia salazar have been instrumental in getting stuff like new york's 2019 housing protections passed. it separately isn't really true because in fact these electeds actually do use their power to act in opposition to the rest of the democratic party, like when jabari brisport led multiple rallies outside laurie cumbo's front door (again, here in new york). both of these people are openly socialists and DSA members and critical of other democrats there's a refrain in your post that i actually also heard from kshama sawant herself in the convention and also heard previously in this thread - "making people think that the Democratic Party is worth engaging with". this, again, seriously underestimates people's basic grasp of reality, whether that of DSA members or of The Working Class, like, oh no, those dullards are going to falsely believe democrats are good if we make the mistake of putting a D next to our candidates' name. but that's not actually how it works. there is no magic inherent in running on the green party or the PSL or whatever that will suddenly crack-ping the masses about capitalism, just as there's no enchantment spell lulling the people into a stupor inscribed into the democrat brand. this kind of flag-waving simply does not matter as much as you think it does, and the depoliticization of the working class has almost nothing to do with the ballot comedyblissoption posted:ferrinus, what exactly is the goal of the dsa helping elect aoc et al to congress i'm not in bronx/uptown manhattan electoral but i think unseating that other guy and increasing global recognition of the DSA in specific and socialism in general were all concerns. we've also benefitted from the like 30-50% of the time that AOC doesn't just do generic democrat thing like when she showed up to do strike support or otherwise annoyed people on various congress committees. i've said it before but given how little the DSA did to get AOC elected she actually gives us a lot more than you'd rightly expect; it's really the justice democrats she owes fealty to, not the DSA Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 01:27 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 01:24
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Maybe electoralism, no matter what party you're running on, will always fail or be co-opted since there is no mass workers movement to support it. The left needs to stop looking for shortcuts in electoralism and start working on a mass movement beyond urban liberals, even if the working class seems unenlightened to you.
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Aug 9, 2021 01:56
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i would say that the people who see electoralism as a shortcut to or even replacement for power lost big this convention
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Aug 9, 2021 02:02
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Chuka Umana posted:Maybe electoralism, no matter what party you're running on, will always fail or be co-opted since there is no mass workers movement to support it. The left needs to stop looking for shortcuts in electoralism and start working on a mass movement beyond urban liberals, even if the working class seems unenlightened to you. This guy is normally a massive dumbass but he's right here. I don't really think electoralism should be abandoned totally but clearly people are too stupid to do more than one thing so maybe it's for the better.
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Aug 9, 2021 02:07
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fermun posted:New NPC for 2021-2023: This is what the GND slate wants people to think but that's not true at all. They ran the GND campaign like a ngo board. They have an angle beyond just "ecosocialism". Ashik and Syd also were former CPN aligned with the people that did the oppo drop on Renewal, and Gustavo was BnR who dropped out to run on the slate, much like Sean E who also ran independent on the GND then voted lockstep with BnR and now that's they're no longer on the NPC has joined them Also Aaron Warner is LSC, not completely independent like Matt is ostensibly. welfarestateofmind has issued a correction as of 04:15 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 03:46
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The Green New Deal is legit three pages of hopeful outcomes without any actual policy, changes in law, or appropriations. I'm gonna guess whoever wrote it was someone from an "oppressed identity" so they can use idpol to shield it from people pointing out it's just a collection of statements. Like does anyone even bother to do anything anymore? The most depressing thing about the organized left is dealing with people whose clear goal is ascension into the ruling class. DSA needs to do more to expel the blatant careerists. Chuka Umana has issued a correction as of 03:57 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 03:54
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Chuka Umana posted:The Green New Deal is legit three pages of hopeful outcomes without any actual policy, changes in law, or appropriations. I'm gonna guess whoever wrote it was someone from an "oppressed identity" so they can use idpol to shield it from people pointing out it's just a collection of statements. Like does anyone even bother to do anything anymore? Also this. I don't like when I'm clearly a stepping stone for someone becoming a career politician or joining the DNC party machine.
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Aug 9, 2021 04:06
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AnimeIsTrash posted:type of guy obsessed with trots in 2021 https://twitter.com/breadrosesDSA/status/1423454976135860226 Yet the implications of these commitments are more controversial than they might seem at first glance. With respect to Commitment 1, unless greater clarity is provided about its purpose and goals, this commitment could just as easily lead to constructive efforts aimed at defending the integrity of democratic electoral processes so important to guarantee the political voice of working and poor people throughout Latin America, or to disturbing, anti-democratic efforts aimed at legitimating rigged or highly suspect electoral processes by authoritarian governments in the region. In other words, the São Paulo Forum is perceived by many of its most important members as being so closely associated with authoritarian governments in Venezuela, Nicaragua, and Cuba that it was necessary to create a parallel organization excluding those governments While once a dynamic space facilitating a shared vision of left-wing politics in Latin America, since the death of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez in 2013, the organization has experienced deep divisions over its relationship with the government of Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro. Key leaders of important Forum membership organizations — such as former Uruguayan President Jorge Mujíca — have publicly expressed condemnation of the Maduro government’s abuses of political and civil rights, while other members, including Maduro himself, have sought to ensure the Forum not only stays silent on the political and civil rights abuses of member organizations, but actively defends those organizations, such as the Maduro government in Venezuela and the government of Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua. In practice, joining the São Paulo Forum will accomplish little beyond signaling DSA’s ideological alignment with authoritarian governments in Latin America (Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua). By formally joining the Forum, we effectively commit DSA to defending our sister organizations (such as the United Socialist Party of Venezuela, the Nicaraguan FSLN, and the Cuban Communist Party), which will make internal political debate around our internationalism work in Latin America even more difficult. There is no clear strategic reason for joining the Forum unless you believe that any critique of authoritarian governments that self-identify as leftist is tantamount to supporting US imperialism or a betrayal of solidarity with our comrades in the Global South.
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Aug 9, 2021 04:13
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gently caress these assholes lol
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Aug 9, 2021 04:13
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I'm not going to put in the physical and mental labor and time to do activist work if there's just going to be some psychopath who exploits it for their gain. DSA needs to do more to challenge these people.
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Aug 9, 2021 04:13
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mila kunis posted:There is no clear strategic reason for joining the Forum unless you believe that any critique of authoritarian governments that self-identify as leftist is tantamount to supporting US imperialism or a betrayal of solidarity with our comrades in the Global South. Yes
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Aug 9, 2021 04:15
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the sao paulo forum stuff is particularly infuriating because these western chauvinists are acting like we'd be doing the forum a favor if we deigned to attend, when in fact we'd be lucky if they didn't reject us outright given what happened when we sent an observer in 2016. every one of these critiques - they're fake leftists who are just carrying water for tyrants, associating with them only legitimizes their violent governments, etc etc - would make much more sense if they were leveled at the DSA itself, but of course our position in the imperial core means people have to take us seriously even when we don't deserve it
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Aug 9, 2021 04:24
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Aug 9, 2021 04:28
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Aug 9, 2021 04:39
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Aug 9, 2021 05:34
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fermun posted:New NPC for 2021-2023: The NPC steering committee is Kristian, Justin, Jenbo, Austin, and Jen M. Caucus-wise that's: 1 Socialist Majority 1 Emerge 1 Renewal 1 Red Star 1 Independent but was Renewal before the CPN/B&R campaign to get NPC candidates fired to prevent CPN/B&R losses on the NPC welfarestateofmind posted:Also Aaron Warner is LSC, not completely independent like Matt is ostensibly. Chuka Umana posted:everyone making more than 100k a year. https://twitter.com/kittyflandre/status/1424552873925353477 fermun has issued a correction as of 07:11 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 07:02
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Aaron Warner is a great guy, I’ve worked with him on tons of local projects. He’s been saying LSC for a long time but definitely is not particularly anarchist. But in our part of LA we don’t have the numbers to get into tons of factionalism. It’s one of the joys of growing the chapter.
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Aug 9, 2021 07:25
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Ferrinus posted:there's a refrain in your post that i actually also heard from kshama sawant herself in the convention and also heard previously in this thread - "making people think that the Democratic Party is worth engaging with". this, again, seriously underestimates people's basic grasp of reality, whether that of DSA members or of The Working Class, like, oh no, those dullards are going to falsely believe democrats are good if we make the mistake of putting a D next to our candidates' name. but that's not actually how it works. there is no magic inherent in running on the green party or the PSL or whatever that will suddenly crack-ping the masses about capitalism, just as there's no enchantment spell lulling the people into a stupor inscribed into the democrat brand. this kind of flag-waving simply does not matter as much as you think it does, and the depoliticization of the working class has almost nothing to do with the ballot My personal opinion is that it probably doesn't matter because the vast majority of people aren't going to get involved with any of this either way. I said "at worst" it convinces people to engage with Democrats - more likely it only influences the small subset of people who pay attention to this stuff. I still think it's a negative, since there are absolutely a number of people with genuine good intentions who are suckered into thinking that there's "a left flank of the Democratic Party" (I'm not sure why you seem to think this isn't the case - you need look no further than "pretty much every intra-left discussion in recent years" to see a zillion examples), but mostly an irrelevant one (because it mostly just applies to the sort of people who have these discussions in the first place). It's sort of similar to something like corporate pink-washing. It causes some people to wrongly think that businesses/organizations are friendly towards their goals, but it's also not like real progress would be made in those areas if the pink-washing didn't exist (and the pink-washing isn't the cause of the lack of progress). Similarly, the subset of left-branded politicians in recent years are making a bunch of people wrongly think that the left is making some sort of progress and gaining representation in the Democratic Party, but I also don't believe that in their absence these people would be turned against the Democrats (see: the left before the last 4-8 years).
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Aug 9, 2021 08:34
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fermun posted:DSA did a poll of members in the weeks leading up to the convention and did find that while DSA is absurdly white, it is actually very representative of the nation in terms of income breakdown. if you believe the poll, sure
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Aug 9, 2021 17:04
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https://twitter.com/CarlBeijer/status/1424479965643411459 Congrats to president Nick Mullen.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:02
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