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JnnyThndrs posted:Dude, those cars were beat-up pieces of poo poo in 2009, how many of them would still be around now? From memory, the #1 cash-for-clunker trade-in was a 1993 Explorer, and #3 was a mid-Nineties Grand Cherokee, neither of which will ever win the Volvo Award for Longevity. Remember, you only got, what, $1800 in the form of a trade-in gift certificate. Please don't just me when you look upon my 35 year old cars in my collection.
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Aug 10, 2021 22:20
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CommieGIR posted:Eh, Cash for Clunkers is still being felt. Only by Cherokee XJ fans and right-wing economists trying to demonstrate some tiny shred of arcane economic theory.
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Aug 10, 2021 22:22
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CommieGIR posted:Please don't just me when you look upon my 35 year old cars in my collection. You win, my oldest is from 1993.
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Aug 10, 2021 22:23
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His Divine Shadow posted:we bought a mazda 6 from 2005 for 2k euros. 2k! Look at money bags over here flaunting their wealth. Anything more than 3 digits is a waste of money!
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Aug 10, 2021 22:27
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So, here's the thing: people buy a lot of different cars for a lot of different reasons and have wildly different budgets. Make peace with that fact, and figure out how EVs and hybrids can fit it, or you're embarking on a fool's errand. Tesla did really well because they figured out there's a lot of people with a decent amount of money, who would like an EV that doesn't drive like a mechanical rear end in a top hat. Myself, I bought a quite-expensive car because I can afford a quite-expensive car and it makes me happy when I drive it. You can argue I pissed a lot of money away because no one needs such a car, and frankly you'd be right, but I don't give a gently caress. Driving a poo poo rear end gently caress spec rental car when mine was being repaired after I got rear-ended was depressing and I hated every moment of it, and but for the fact that someone gave me a new (disgustingly ableist) title, you'd see the evidence, because I bitched about it quite a lot. A lot of people would like their car to be more than simply sufficient in any number of ways, and will pay money for it. I don't think it's some great mystery, to be honest with you.
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Aug 10, 2021 23:42
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JnnyThndrs posted:Dude, those cars were beat-up pieces of poo poo in 2009, how many of them would still be around now? From memory, the #1 cash-for-clunker trade-in was a 1993 Explorer, and #3 was a mid-Nineties Grand Cherokee, neither of which will ever win the Volvo Award for Longevity. Remember, you only got, what, $1800 in the form of a trade-in gift certificate. You really don't seem to grasp the impacts of this. It doesn't MATTER what cars were turned in. The impact was the reduction in used car supply and a bunch of newer cars in the used car market. It wiped out the lower end almost immediately, and it effects were pretty clear up until the next flavor of hellworld took over. But I mean, Edmunds is probably just a right wing plot or something, so yeah.....lets not believe them.
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Aug 11, 2021 00:13
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Mega Comrade posted:2k! Look at money bags over here flaunting their wealth. Anything more than 3 digits is a waste of money! Psh, look at this person, I adopted a horse from a family looking to downsize and let it graze at the local parks. When it gets ill I then have 600# of meat to store and just keep hunting Craigslist for horses that look the same so I can send pictures to the previous ones letting them know they're doing great and that I have friends who like rescuing horses too.
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Aug 11, 2021 00:14
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Not having to worry about your old car breaking down and leaving you stranded, and having to leave it and pick it up from the shop all the time is a great thing. It is totally worth it IMO, to spend the extra money on a newer, more reliable car.
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Aug 11, 2021 00:15
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My first new car was a 1982 BMW 528e. Total lemon. If I had bought a Mercedes 240D I could still be driving it today. Oh well.
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Aug 11, 2021 01:11
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VideoGameVet posted:My first new car was a 1982 BMW 528e. Total lemon. Most of the 240D/300D/300SD have been killed by people running veggie oil setups.
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Aug 11, 2021 01:14
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CommieGIR posted:Most of the 240D/300D/300SD have been killed by people running veggie oil setups. I see fine condition 240D’s and 300D’s all over the place.
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Aug 11, 2021 01:16
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VideoGameVet posted:I see fine condition 240D’s and 300D’s all over the place. Luck, seems like most of the ones I've seen have injection pump issues.
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Aug 11, 2021 01:17
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Mega Comrade posted:2k! Look at money bags over here flaunting their wealth. Anything more than 3 digits is a waste of money! Hey 2k was a lot of money too that we'd rather not sent on a car. silence_kit posted:Not having to worry about your old car breaking down and leaving you stranded, and having to leave it and pick it up from the shop all the time is a great thing. It is totally worth it IMO, to spend the extra money on a newer, more reliable car. Few things are as reliable as an old diesel without much complicated stuff in it.
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Aug 11, 2021 04:13
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Motronic posted:This isn't Norway or the EU. Decent quality used cars have always cost more here. And even more now. Blut is from the EU iirc.
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Aug 11, 2021 04:16
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Motronic posted:You really don't seem to grasp the impacts of this. It doesn't MATTER what cars were turned in. The impact was the reduction in used car supply and a bunch of newer cars in the used car market. It wiped out the lower end almost immediately, and it effects were pretty clear up until the next flavor of hellworld took over. I’m not arguing that it didn’t make an impact in 2012, or even 2015. I’m saying that it’s been eleven years and that ship has loving sailed - gently caress it’s sailed, run aground, and has a bad barnacle infestation. All those shitbox Explorers and Blazers and Grand Cherokee’s would have lasted a couple more years and went the Great Transmission Failure In The Sky. Thes were eighteen hundred dollar cars(at best), they weren’t going to give some poor working slob thousands of miles of trouble-free service. There’s a laundry list of factors which have made the low-end of the market a desolate wasteland in the last ten years or so, and I could go on for ten paragraphs about the huge rise in subprime car loans, the ever-increasing difficulty in shade-tree mechanics to keep older vehicles running, the faster-than-inflation rise of new car prices, how new cars last so much longer than they used to, the overall disintegration of the lower-middle-class as a consumer group(causing more demand at the low-end of the market) and a bunch of other poo poo(California’s draconian registration penalties anyone?). Suffice it to say, it’s way easier to keep blaming a dead, decade-old program which pulled 700K vehicles off the road out of 260 million, than deeply analyze the myriad ways that capitalism adapts to suck every nickel from the people least able to afford it.
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Aug 11, 2021 04:47
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JnnyThndrs posted:I’m not arguing that it didn’t make an impact in 2012, or even 2015. I’m saying that it’s been eleven years and that ship has loving sailed - gently caress it’s sailed, run aground, and has a bad barnacle infestation. All those shitbox Explorers and Blazers and Grand Cherokee’s would have lasted a couple more years and went the Great Transmission Failure In The Sky. Thes were eighteen hundred dollar cars(at best), they weren’t going to give some poor working slob thousands of miles of trouble-free service. You seem really hung up on this, and unwilling to learn or consider how an economy and market forces work. Again, I'm sure you're smarter than both Edmunds and the professional economists who have discussed this at length. You won. Happy?
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Aug 11, 2021 04:54
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Motronic posted:You seem really hung up on this, and unwilling to learn or consider how an economy and market forces work. JnnyThndrs seems to have substantiated their point pretty well, so maybe it's time for you to drop the terrible Cash 4 Clunker boogeyman.
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Aug 11, 2021 11:41
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His Divine Shadow posted:10-15k is a fuckload of money to waste on a car. Frankly this post oozes privilege. Being able to afford $10k for a car is not remotely "privileged" unless you're a teenager/student/live in a third world country. Most reasonably competent adults in the US, if they need a car, can and do easily afford that. I'm sorry if that triggers you, but its the reality - the vast majority of cars on the road aren't ancient clunkers like yours. As to if its a waste, thats completely subjective. Is buying a bigger TV, a newer iPhone, going on a yearly vacation, eating out in a nice restaurant, or moving into a larger apartment a waste? Its all about what brings someone joy or utility. Given so many people (pre corona anyway) spend 5-10 hours+ a week in their car its not unreasonable to want to be in some combination of a comfortable, fun to drive, reliable vehicle and to spend a few dollars to get one.
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Aug 11, 2021 13:48
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Blut posted:Being able to afford $10k for a car is not remotely "privileged" unless you're a teenager/student/live in a third world country. Most reasonably competent adults in the US, if they need a car, can and do easily afford that. I'm sorry if that triggers you, but its the reality - the vast majority of cars on the road aren't ancient clunkers like yours. Oh buddy, if you truly believe this, you are completely divorced from the realities of life for the vast majority of Americans.
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Aug 11, 2021 13:56
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His Divine Shadow posted:10-15k is a fuckload of money to waste on a car. Frankly this post oozes privilege. I would never describe 10-15k as a "fuckload of money" in the context of a car and I don't think most functional adults would either, even those of us (like me) who daily drive a 15 year old Honda.
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Aug 11, 2021 13:58
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You really don't realise how poor the majority of Americans are and how necessary a car is to functioning at all in the US. A bad car is better than no car by an order of magnitude.
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Aug 11, 2021 13:59
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I would, since it's about 12k more than every car I have ever owned put together.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:01
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There Bias Two posted:Oh buddy, if you truly believe this, you are completely divorced from the realities of life for the vast majority of Americans. There are about 15 million brand new cars/light trucks/SUVs sold in the US every year, all for much much more than $10k. There are about 40 million used cars bought every year in the US, for an average price of $25k as of last year. There are 196 million Americans over the age of 21. So that would suggest over 1/4 of them are buying a car worth far more than $10k ever year - and presumably not the same people every year. Thats also not accounting for the fact that not every person needs a car, when plenty of older retired people, or young people living in urban areas, either don't have a car or share one. A lot of people who're financially struggling/failing seem to assume everyone else is doing as badly as them, but its just not true. The vast majority of Americans can and do spend $10k on a car.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:09
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An entry level Honda Civic is 20 grand. I get not being able to buy one - I can't, and for that matter I've never owned a new car - but if you think 10k is getting into "check your privilege, uncle pennybags" territory I don't know what to tell you.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:10
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10k is a fuckload of money if you have no money. But most people are able to "afford" 10k cars by taking out loans because thry have to. The vast majority of adults can get a 10k car. But it is not comfortably affordable for the majority of adults, it is now a significant monthly expense whereas at 2k or 3k you could buy the car outright.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:11
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OctaMurk posted:But it is not comfortably affordable for the majority of adults, Love the subjective standard applied to an objective number. Impossible to argue against, because you're not actually saying anything. If it's a lot of money to you just say that. It's fine. It's a lot of money to me too. But normal people can and do swing a $10,000 car without having to wear a barrel as clothes, and it's not exceptional when it happens.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:15
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TheScott2K posted:Love the subjective standard applied to an objective number. Impossible to argue against, because you're not actually saying anything. Well thats what Im saying -- the vast majority of people can get a $10k car, whether by cash or by access to credit. The original statement that the vast majority of people cannot access a $10k car, was not realistic If its a lot of money to you and you have to plan out the purchase significantly its not really comfortably affordable, but you can still get one.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:18
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What does "comfortably affordable" mean?
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Aug 11, 2021 14:25
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TheScott2K posted:I would never describe 10-15k as a "fuckload of money" in the context of a car and I don't think most functional adults would either, even those of us (like me) who daily drive a 15 year old Honda. 15k is worth about the first car my parents bought me and my sister to drive ourselves to college (4k for a 93 Buick Century), the Wagon I bought myself when I moved out west (3k for a 93 Buck Century wagon), the 03 Pontiac Vibe I bought when that finally died (6k) and the 06 pontiac vibe I currently own that was supposed to be a bridge to save some money on repairs to the next car (3k), combined.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:26
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TheScott2K posted:What does "comfortably affordable" mean? Most Americans have less than 400 in the bank, and the payment on a 60 month 3% 15k auto loan is 270 according to google.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:28
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TheScott2K posted:What does "comfortably affordable" mean? What someones going to call comfortably affordable is going to be different for everyone, so as you called out, its obviously a subjective standard and I'm saying something based on my gut feeling of the places I've lived ranging from poorer to well off places. If you have to change your lifestyle -- put off college, work extra hours, stop eating out as much -- to afford something, then you cannot comfortably afford it in my opinion. I think most people can buy a $10k car. I dont think most people can buy a 10k car without cutting back elsewhere in their lives for a couple years or having to temporarily feel a lot poorer while paying for the car, because 4 in 10 americans dont even have 1K in the bank. If I am wrong that's great.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:33
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Hoot, I don't know what to tell you, bud. 10-15k isn't flying very high when it comes to a car. People buy em, and they're not selling off their original Monet to do it.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:33
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OctaMurk posted:I think most people can buy a $10k car. I dont think most people can buy a 10k car without cutting back elsewhere in their lives for a couple years or having to temporarily feel a lot poorer while paying for the car, because 4 in 10 americans dont even have 1K in the bank. If I am wrong that's great. I think the assumption that everyone buying a car is adding a new payment where there once was none - no recently-completed loan on a previous vehicle, no trade-in of any kind - is a faulty one. The Car Payment always being part of the cashflow budget is pretty normal poo poo for people who drive to work.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:36
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TheScott2K posted:I think the assumption that everyone buying a car is adding a new payment where there once was none - no recently-completed loan on a previous vehicle, no trade-in of any kind - is a faulty one. The Car Payment always being part of the cashflow budget is pretty normal poo poo for people who drive to work. Thats a fair point that I and others probably didn't consider -- that many people who have less than 1k in the bank, may already be paying a car note anyways so their financial situation may not appreciably change on getting another vehicle if the car note is effectively always part of the budget I don't have a car note anymore so despite being pretty well off any car note would feel like a big chunk monthly to me
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Aug 11, 2021 14:40
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The average American car is 12 years old and sells for $20k used right now. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2021/06/14/used-cars-suvs-trucks-used-car-prices/7638769002/
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Aug 11, 2021 14:41
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TheScott2K posted:Hoot, I don't know what to tell you, bud. 10-15k isn't flying very high when it comes to a car. People buy em, and they're not selling off their original Monet to do it. Except it is and there's a giant predatory industry worth over a trillion bucks designed to get people into cars they actually can't afford.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:43
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Just realized this has basically become a "whose perception of Normal is closest to correct" argument so I'm just gonna disengage on the subject and let y'all decide for yourselves.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:43
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OctaMurk posted:10k is a fuckload of money if you have no money. But most people are able to "afford" 10k cars by taking out loans because thry have to. Yep I would put myself in this range. And I live a lot more nicely in every other respect of my life compared to my income range because I do this. And the car is nice to drive. But I also realize a lot of people are doing a lot worse than me, infact they are likely the biggest single group in society. Even in europe yes.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:57
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Blut posted:Being able to afford $10k for a car is not remotely "privileged" unless you're a teenager/student/live in a third world country. Most reasonably competent adults in the US, if they need a car, can and do easily afford that. I'm sorry if that triggers you, but its the reality - the vast majority of cars on the road aren't ancient clunkers like yours. Other people already answered most of your post so I'll just say that I spend 5-6 hours driving per week and my car is comfortable, fun to drive (particularly nice to drive in a city), insanely reliable and gets drat good mileage. The only thing my car isn't, is new and shiny. Which seems to be what's triggering some people tbh. Also I thought it was interesting how it seems imply what you think about poor people, they're incompetent, that's why they're poor and can't afford a proper modern car, as if that is a requirement to pass for a competent adult in your eyes is to spend enough money on a car. FWIW I could afford a 10k car, but why would I want to, it's like you say, subjective. My car is great at everything except gaining the approval of people like you, and I don't value that. Not having a monthly car payment and more money to save or spend, that I value.
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Aug 11, 2021 15:24
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His Divine Shadow posted:Also I thought it was interesting how it seems imply what you think about poor people, they're incompetent, that's why they're poor and can't afford a proper modern car, as if that is a requirement to pass for a competent adult in your eyes is to spend enough money on a car. This misread is so bad I'm tempted to call you a moron, but it was probably intentional so actually you're an rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 11, 2021 15:54
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