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ZShakespeare)
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If Trudeau runs on Pharmacare again I'm gonna die laughing. My favourite part of Canadian elections is explaining to American leftists that no one should get excited about the NDP gaining in the polls.
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Aug 13, 2021 00:23
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 17:33 |
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Ego-bot posted:If Trudeau runs on Pharmacare again I'm gonna die laughing. Pharmacare and election reform will be the anchors of his 2021 platform.
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Aug 13, 2021 00:24
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Vote Liberal for nationalized daycare! This time we really really really mean it. Pinkie swear on a stack of bibles. Would we lie to you?
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Aug 13, 2021 00:31
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https://twitter.com/pancholi_rakhi/status/1425965430108147712?s=20 Oh boi
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Aug 13, 2021 00:46
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Only 3 days ago they were planting stories on CTV to attack specific critics of their plan. I wonder which company told them they would withhold political donations if they followed through.
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Aug 13, 2021 00:53
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eXXon posted:Actually, I can confidently predict that the Liberals will get 169 +/- 120 seats in the next federal election, 99 times out of 100. Oh, hi Eric, I didn't know you posted here. Kraftwerk posted:While I support the NDP on paper for lack of a better alternative, I strongly believe they're an incompetent party of grifters whose careers depend on running some kind of political apparatus without any real plan or organizations to properly assuming government. Just saw this and would like to strongly agree. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 01:05
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For what it's worth I think that the NDP is in survival mode and feels they need to pivot left. Jagmeet himself pivoted from sucking off Israel last year to asking for an arms embargo.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:16
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How far left is left in this case? I don't think I've seen them get further than pocketbook populism, but I'm certainly willing to believe.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:24
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Standard left soc-dem poo poo to be honest, but it seems like activists in the Courage Coalition managed to pass some decent resolutions. Also a bunch of the really lovely centrists like Helene Leverdiere are gone now too.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:27
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ToxicAcne posted:For what it's worth I think that the NDP is in survival mode and feels they need to pivot left. Jagmeet himself pivoted from sucking off Israel last year to asking for an arms embargo. There's only enough oxygen in the room for one centrist do nothing party so that was inevitable... I still think if the NDP ever won power they'd pivot back to the Liberals' current position with a few goodies for us and they'd rule with contradictory policy goals that don't satisfy the left enough while pissing everyone else off. This will probably occur under a relentless non-stop media assault on the NDP government where every major paper from National Post to Toronto Star launch hit pieces on every aspect of the government. It'll be so bad that even sympathetic individuals will "feel" like the government is a non stop disaster. Meanwhile the NDP will be floundering while trying to get acquainted with how the civil service works and what it would take to actually write and implement legislation. Pretty sure Libs and Tories know exactly who they need to call to make poo poo happen once royal ascent is granted and have the necessary relationships to make that happen. An NDP government would probably face insubordination from various federal agencies and in particular will probably find the RCMP is choosing to be very bad at their jobs while their bosses blame the government for it. I can also see shitloads of strikes at the Port of Montreal, CN Rail etc with NDP reluctance to do back to work legislation. Meanwhile port authorities and railroad execs play the long game and refuse to deal with the unions as public pressure and supply chain shortages put the federal government in an extremely difficult position that will eventually cause them to cave and legislate everyone back to work. By year 4 of this hypothetical majority, they'll get wiped out by a CPC backlash majority and never win another government again. You'll see retrospective montages of empty store shelves, shortages, non stop strikes, high taxes and economic stagnation as a warning sign for what happens when you elect left wing governments and Canada will lurch hard to the right for another generation. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 01:27
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In that case I don't think a potential NDP govenrment would be that incompetent. There's alot more integration between the Provincial and Federal NDP's than with other parties and talent shifts between them. Actually they have a problem where there's brain drain towards like the BCNDP or ANDP because they are/were in power. What I think would happen is what happens to every Western Social Democratic government. Capital Strikes like you mentioned or a slow lurch towards New Labourism. I think people forget how autonomous Canadian Provinces really are. NDP goverments in Saskatchewan, BC, and Manitoba have gotten elected and done much of the typical program for Social Democratic party's in the Western world such as Nationalisations, Universal programs and then the slide towards neoliberalism. ToxicAcne fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 01:33
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I should clarify that when I say i agree that they're incompetent, I mean electorally*. I don't think they're PCPO style incompetent at actual governance, they have enough people in the party who have been hands on in parliament for long enough to know the basic nuts and bolts of writing and passing legislation and the extent/limits of their power. I do agree that they're all but set up to fail WRT actually supporting labour and the machinations of Canadian industry. The obvious example would be the ONDP government in the 90s. *This is probably moot really, Canadians by and large are very content with the Liberal sort of conservatism and I don't think there are enough people in this country that really want a leftist government of any kind for one to form. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 01:43
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ToxicAcne posted:In that case I don't think a potential NDP govenrment would be that incompetent. There's alot more integration between the Provincial and Federal NDP's than with other parties and talent shifts between them. Actually they have a problem where there's brain drain towards like the BCNDP or ANDP because they are/were in power. What I think would happen is what happens to every Western Social Democratic government. Capital Strikes like you mentioned or a slow lurch towards New Labourism. Right, agreed. But it can't be understated enough just how loving difficult it is to govern the ungovernable. Without support from the business community, capital can simply refuse to do business the normal way and basically shut down your economy until you're voted out so you bear the blame for its failure. There's no real way to stop this kind of stuff. We all talk about regulating business to stop climate change but we forget many of the bigger businesses like railways, resource developers and fossil fuel companies basically have a hotline to the PMO's office and special access to government that a regular citizen simply doesn't have. These people can call and speak directly to the prime minister and I'm pretty sure they make veiled threats about what would happen if your legislation hurts their business interests... As much as I think Liberals and Conservatives are very supportive an ideologically aligned to capital, I do also believe many of them wanted to do the right thing once upon a time and quickly realized their power is limited and the business community has all sorts of tools at their disposal to make any government they don't like utterly miserable. Like you need so many things to go right for you to have a good government. You need the media on your side, definitely. In a lot of cases those media companies aren't neutral anymore like they were in the old days. They have political interests of their own, often represented by their board members and shareholders and they will act to the benefit of them above all others. So you make Faustian bargains. You promise tax cuts to the friends of whoever owns Postmedia or Bell Media and in exchange they publish puff pieces about you and underreport your mistakes. All these people know eachother. They go to the same restaurants and golf courses. They stay in some of the same resorts. It's not a conspiracy so much as it is multiple entities semi-independently all pulling in the same direction and as a whole can really harm your government if you piss them off... It doesn't surprise me our governments have been so useless. Look at what you have to deal with! At the same time as much as you want your power to come from "the people" I think modern life has people accustomed to trusting media, never really knowing the truth anymore and falling victim to repeating false narratives. I think that regardless of whether you live in a democracy or not, a government reflects the culture, attitude and general willpower of its citizens. People are easily manipulated by the big business media. If they care more about their selfish needs like continuous supply chains, stock market gains, and seeing the garbage get taken out on time every week then they can be manipulated with these things. We've just successfully convinced a lot of people that inflation is going to trash our economy in the future even though the numbers don't support those claims. People just assume we are "printing money" to pay for things and we'll fall off a fiscal cliff any day now. The only reason this hasn't hurt the liberals more is that people want the pandemic spending more than they currently care about "the deficit". When the pandemic is over I expect people to start being more susceptible to austerity narratives. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 01:43
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Kraftwerk posted:An NDP government would probably face insubordination from various federal agencies and in particular will probably find the RCMP is choosing to be very bad at their jobs The only thing the RCMP is good at is brutalizing disadvantaged and vulnerable people so this sounds like a win to me. Precambrian Video Games fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 01:44
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eXXon posted:The only thing the RCMP is good at is brutalizing disadvantaged people so this sounds like a win to me. Well it's not as if they'd stop doing that
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Aug 13, 2021 01:47
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We're on a work to rule campaign, let's see how you like it when there's nobody to clear out indigenous protestors or environmentalists blocking old growth forest strip fracking pipeline access roads!
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Aug 13, 2021 01:51
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linoleum floors posted:Even most cabinet ministers are spineless lackeys No wonder why, look at what happened to JWR when she actually tried to have some agency. Booted out of caucus and Trudeau booted her pal Philpot too just for the crime of agreeing with her!
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Aug 13, 2021 01:52
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People in this thread think the RCMP are doing a bang up job under a bunch of neoliberals.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:05
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half cocaine posted:People in this thread think the RCMP are doing a bang up job under a bunch of neoliberals. Nah, that isn't my opinion. I merely meant that the RCMP have a better reputation outside left-wing ecochambers and for the average suburb dweller who's never seen the RCMP in their lives won't necessarily know about poo poo like how they do entrapment with activists etc. What I mean is they'll drop the ball in very visible and controversial ways and the federal government will be blamed for it.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:08
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Lately I've been thinking if the Left is too hard on the Military and Police. With the complete failure of the Defund the Police movement and the crime wave here in Canada and the US doesn't it make sense to pivot to a non-interventionist stance instead of a "Abolish the Military and Police" one? I mean Bolivia, Venezuela, and Cuba have armies and cops right? And in Venezuela's and Cuba's case they are loyal to the government. I feel like the "Abolish the Police" poo poo is some anarkiddy platform that has no real basis in the history of the Left in Canada or the rest of the world. Please feel free to challenge me on this, I've been reading alot of Freddie DeBoer at work while loafting and his views are rubbing off on me.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:32
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ToxicAcne posted:Lately I've been thinking if the Left is too hard on the Military and Police. With the complete failure of the Defund the Police movement and the crime wave here in Canada and the US doesn't it make sense to pivot to a non-interventionist stance instead of a "Abolish the Military and Police" one? I mean Bolivia, Venezuela, and Cuba have armies and cops right? And in Venezuela's and Cuba's case they are loyal to the government. I feel like the "Abolish the Police" poo poo is some anarkiddy platform that has no real basis in the history of the Left in Canada or the rest of the world. Yeah, so... I think the general idea is that cops in Cuba and Venezuela are also bastards. As is encapsulated in the statement "all cops are bastards."
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Aug 13, 2021 02:51
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Abolish the police is unfortunately an angry internet leftist name for a very good set of ideas. If we funneled 3/4s of the police budget to social services job programs etc we'd improve society so much that the 1/4 left would be more than enough to better fund the police service we'd need. Their workload would drop a lot more than their funding. At the same time we do need to clean house of officers that signed up because they enjoy our current method of 'give me my hammer all I see are nails' policing. A police officers job is to protect and serve and that means protecting people from themselves when they're in a bad place. Instead they throw those people off balconies. So don't abolish the police, purge the police.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:52
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But yeah that's kind of my point. Online (and Campus) Leftist culture is extremely stupid and unnecessarily provocative and these people imagine themselves as Bolsheviks circa 1917, without realising that the Bolsheviks were smart, pragmatic, and had had an actual power base. I'm definitely not the first person noticing that the Left has a serious cultural problem and you can see it even in the NDP. Many of their candidates are drudged up from the craziest quacks, crystal healers etc or from Student Politics shitheads. Meanwhile good candidates get binned for saying they support BDS or whatever. The Greens are imploding from this poo poo and that Noah Zatzman dude is case zero of the person I'm thinking of. Edit: And I get the feeling that after Corbyn and Bernie getting merked, these people are coming back to get their lovely little reading groups (read cults) back and sending the Left back to Tumblr circa 2014.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:07
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ToxicAcne posted:Lately I've been thinking if the Left is too hard on the Military and Police. With the complete failure of the Defund the Police movement and the crime wave here in Canada and the US doesn't it make sense to pivot to a non-interventionist stance instead of a "Abolish the Military and Police" one? I mean Bolivia, Venezuela, and Cuba have armies and cops right? And in Venezuela's and Cuba's case they are loyal to the government. I feel like the "Abolish the Police" poo poo is some anarkiddy platform that has no real basis in the history of the Left in Canada or the rest of the world. It's about the source of your authority. The police in western countries serve the interests of capital first and foremost. Since the entire culture of the police isn't really loyal to governments (and in some cases dictates how municipal governments behave by withdrawing services in wards that are hostile to them) they can do whatever they want. The reason why people want to abolish the police is because they think the police can be disbanded and replaced with a new organization that does the job properly, from the ground up. It's the belief that police culture and organizational inertia make reform impossible unless we start from scratch. Case in point, many countries like Norway don't have armed police on the front lines and those guys only get called out if the situation warrants it. The police in the Americas are a right wing organization. Historically, when left wing movements attempted things like revolution or seizing control of government while they appeared as populist movements "for the people" they often had to serve the whims and opinions of particular groups that had some form of power or leverage. During the French Revolution a lot of that power originated from groups like the Sans Culottes, angry mobs who watched political proceedings and peasants/middle class people who later became the Paris national guard. So you basically had an armed paramilitary group with peasant origins that was backing your government as long as you were upholding whatever their interests might be. They also owe their existence to your actions where previously the army was controlled by entrenched nobility etc. The status quo is the interest of the current police and thus you will never get their backing unless you behave like the current crop of active western governments.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:08
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Kraftwerk posted:It's about the source of your authority. The police in western countries serve the interests of capital first and foremost. Since the entire culture of the police isn't really loyal to governments (and in some cases dictates how municipal governments behave by withdrawing services in wards that are hostile to them) they can do whatever they want. I get that I really do, but surely the solution isn't what we're doing right now right? And alot of people really do mean abolish the police, straight up. Nobody has any thought out political programme that can get people to work towards something. In fact the idea of having a programme or even demands is seen as as authoritarian or racist or whatever. We get these massive uprisings now every few years that end up nowhere because ultimately they are about nothing.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:16
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ToxicAcne posted:I get that I really do, but surely the solution isn't what we're doing right now right? And alot of people really do mean abolish the police, straight up. Nobody has any thought out political programme that can get people to work towards something. In fact the idea of having a programme or even demands is seen as as authoritarian or racist or whatever. We get these massive uprisings now every few years that end up nowhere because ultimately they are about nothing. I'd stay stop basing your summary of the entire left and its strategy on twitter posts.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:17
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ToxicAcne posted:With the complete failure of the Defund the Police movement if it can't be changed in twelve months, it must be either impossible or not worth doing!
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Aug 13, 2021 03:20
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Not if you're doing aimless carnival protests every couple of years. Blockading railways to stop a pipeline is the kind of direct action that has the potential to get something done. Not getting cops to kneel.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:24
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"We'll never get rid of the cops, so we should just focus on the real problem*." *the cops
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Aug 13, 2021 03:32
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ToxicAcne posted:Lately I've been thinking if the Left is too hard on the Military and Police. With the complete failure of the Defund the Police movement and the crime wave here in Canada and the US doesn't it make sense to pivot to a non-interventionist stance instead of a "Abolish the Military and Police" one? I'm trying really hard to parse a coherent thesis out of this mess of a post but failing so could you please also try a little harder to explain what a non-interventionist stance means exactly and how the possible increase in crime in one extremely unusual pandemic year after decades of falling crime rates mean that we're being too hard on the police? Like it's been what a week or two since police violently evicted homeless people from parks they since closed for filming or just out of spite so why exactly do we have to hand it to them (it being perpetual budget increases and no meaningful structural change)?
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Aug 13, 2021 03:39
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eXXon posted:Like it's been what a week or two since police violently evicted homeless people from parks they since closed for filming or just out of spite so why exactly do we have to hand it to them? This happened in my city today, again, for literally no reason. Abolish the cops.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:43
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ToxicAcne posted:For what it's worth I think that the NDP is in survival mode and feels they need to pivot left. Jagmeet himself pivoted from sucking off Israel last year to asking for an arms embargo. There is def a battle between the old guard of neo liberals and some of the newer, soc-dem members Hopefully it doesn't turn out like it did in the UK lol
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Aug 13, 2021 04:32
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ToxicAcne posted:Not if you're doing aimless carnival protests every couple of years. Infrastructure is easier to protest than service because it's tangible...
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Aug 13, 2021 04:43
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All I know is Jagmeet’s dad gave me mind-altering drugs, so he’s got my vote. 1,2 1Dr Singh Dhaliwal was my psychiatrist and was very helpful in a difficult time. 2Actually I know other things besides.
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Aug 13, 2021 04:50
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ToxicAcne posted:Not if you're doing aimless carnival protests every couple of years. Kinda feel like you're arguing against your earlier posts here. A more moderate slogan isn't direct action. Can you give any direct examples of the kind of strategy you would want to see that isn't "hard on the police"?
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Aug 13, 2021 05:28
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So if the PCs fail now which they seem to be on track to do so - who's next? I do think Mackay or Chong might actually be able to threaten Trudeau going towards a 4th election but I'm skeptical either would win a leadership contest. I live in a liberal stronghold with a prototypical candidate that's been padding their resume since they were 3 with board positions and start-ups, and accordingly NDP/Green/PC candidates that are flawed enough to waste their time.
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Aug 13, 2021 05:40
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ToxicAcne posted:Not if you're doing aimless carnival protests every couple of years. Are the "Campus Leftists" in the room right now? Do those SJWs make you upset? What police group are you part of? Do they tell you to post this garbage online? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 13, 2021 05:42
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Capri Sunrise posted:So if the PCs fail now which they seem to be on track to do so - who's next? I do think Mackay or Chong might actually be able to threaten Trudeau going towards a 4th election but I'm skeptical either would win a leadership contest. Maybe the relatively rational contingent of the party that keeps selecting balloon animals filled with old milk for the leadership will lose their control and we'll get a truly vile nutjob instead.
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Aug 13, 2021 05:48
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Capri Sunrise posted:So if the PCs fail now which they seem to be on track to do so - who's next? I do think Mackay or Chong might actually be able to threaten Trudeau going towards a 4th election but I'm skeptical either would win a leadership contest. Based on the last leadership race, MacKay pretty clearly has a ceiling of support within the Conservative Party. I think Chong is probably too moderate/not enough of a socon to significantly outperform MacKay in that regard.
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Aug 13, 2021 05:50
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 17:33 |
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Capri Sunrise posted:So if the PCs fail now which they seem to be on track to do so - who's next? I do think Mackay or Chong might actually be able to threaten Trudeau going towards a 4th election but I'm skeptical either would win a leadership contest. Lotta evidence Pollievre will toss his hat in the ring. C'mon Skippy, do it you piece of poo poo
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Aug 13, 2021 05:53
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