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Kestral posted:While it's impossible, as you've noted, to know the private heart of Le Guin, my suspicion is that she was able to write in a way that feels like it has queer understanding was because she had such a profound human understanding. She was the daughter of two renowned anthropologists, one of whom was also a psychologist and a gifted writer, and it shows. Even above and beyond her astonishingly beautiful prose, Le Guin's great gift was that she genuinely cared about and understood people and cultures other than her own. It wouldn't surprise me if she had queer folks in her circles to inform her, but it also wouldn't surprise me if she was able to write what she did through sheer anthropologically-informed imagination. My ten (arbitrary currency) is that neither Yon Ha Lee or Tamsin Muir bring anything special in terms of storytelling. Both commits the usual sci-fi fallacy of having an interesting idea for a universe but fails in bringing anything new in the storytelling department. They are not special as authors and I was kinda disappointed by this, since I hoped that different viewpoints would result in something new. One could even argue that Morgan have done more for queer fantasy with his The Cold Commands series. obvious bait
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Aug 15, 2021 16:57
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Cardiac posted:My ten (arbitrary currency) is that neither Yon Ha Lee or Tamsin Muir bring anything special in terms of storytelling. Both commits the usual sci-fi fallacy of having an interesting idea for a universe but fails in bringing anything new in the storytelling department. They are not special as authors and I was kinda disappointed by this, since I hoped that different viewpoints would result in something new. "this is bait" Too bad I have opinions IMHO Yoon Ha Lee and Tamsin Muir do grant that still-elusive prize: interesting (to any debatable degree) sci-fi/fantasy plots with queer characters in them, and they aren't treated as ~weird~ or ~special~ and they don't arbitrarily die because of some weird prudish morality. Mind you queer characters can still die in their works, but it's because anyone can die. An actual question: I haven't read Richard K Morgan's Cold Commands series. What did it do for queer fantasy? All I know about it is that it's dark fantasy with a queer hero (which owns) but what's innovative about it? e: Also I remember Richard K Morgan being lovely somewhere, but I do not recall how or why.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:23
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Neuromancer (Sprawl #1) by William Gibson - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000O76ON6/ The Mask of Apollo by Mary Renault - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DCGJ6V8/
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Aug 15, 2021 17:26
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StrixNebulosa posted:"this is bait" Too bad I have opinions He’s a TERF. The Steel Remains books are set in a viciously homophobic world but Morgan does, for better or worse, write his gay and lesbian characters with all the same graphic superviolence and explicit sex as his straight guy Kovacs.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:31
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StrixNebulosa posted:e: Also I remember Richard K Morgan being lovely somewhere, but I do not recall how or why. Valiant defender of Graham Linehan and JK Rowling against the twin scourges of trans activism and cancel culture.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:31
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StrixNebulosa posted:e: Also I remember Richard K Morgan being lovely somewhere, but I do not recall how or why. TERFery.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:36
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When every british creative reaches middle age they become a radical centrist transphobe and start spending all their time posting on Twitter about JK Rowling and Tony Blair, it's our island curse
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Aug 15, 2021 17:38
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multijoe posted:When every british creative reaches middle age they become a radical centrist transphobe and start spending all their time posting on Twitter about JK Rowling and Tony Blair, it's our island curse 
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Aug 15, 2021 17:40
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God drat it. Thanks. Learn something new every day in this thread.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:42
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Kestral posted:For my own queer-experience money, The Left Hand of Darkness is head and shoulders above anything I've read by modern out queer authors; it's not even close. There are some queer authors who I'd say are trying to push the envelope more, especially re: gender identity, but I definitely agree that Left Hand of Darkness still stands out quite a lot in concept and execution. (I could go on a really long rant about how sadly lacking many cis queer author's approaches to gender are. Even when a lot of non-trans people have a well meaning 'and there are non-binary people!' inclusion, it's often treated as a defined third gender category and there's still the default foundation/assumption of a male/female binary. You can do so much! Gender is made up anyway, play with it! (Example of doing-it-right that many here will be familiar with: the Baru Cormorant books definitely struck me as having a good, nuanced gender approach and understanding of the possibilities of gender constructs across cultures, but that's also its own really long rant.)) General Battuta posted:He’s a TERF. Pretty sure I already heard about him being like this, but even more reason for me to continue staying away from his stuff.
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Aug 15, 2021 18:44
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thotsky posted:lol What a very thoughtful response. Danhenge posted:You have essentially articulated the position that you and the market are rational and therefore could not be wrong. Yet, you talk about following the awards and how that keeps you reading a gender-balanced set of books. And underlying your whole argument is the supposition that readers of fiction must mirror your experiences! Most people don't actually keep up with science fiction awards. Less than 1300 people voted in 2021! You are clearly tediously self-centered in your view of the world and your expectations for other people, and I think your whole position is stupid and you are too. Well, at least you responded with something more than a drive-by tone snipe intended to shame me for having bad opinions. The Hugos are not representative of the market. I've been to the award ceremony, voted, seen it in action and how it operates. The people who vote in the Hugos are a small subset of F & SF readers (who are already a very small subset of readers in general). The actual voting part is a popularity contest, and people who have large followings have the highest likelihood of winning despite the quality of the novel or how it moves the genre forward. The people who select the finalists are an even smaller subset of readers/writers who care enough to attend worldcon. There is a curation process here, and I would be extremely shocked to walk around worldcon and find more than a handful far-right leaning SFWA members, unless I accidentally took a left turn and ended up in the Baen Books con suite or got stuck in an elevator with Larry Correia. The market doesn't give a crap about ethics or progressivism. There a bases of readers who can be sold a novel on reasons other than the quality of the prose, the originality of the concept, or because the book fills an unmet demand (Twilight). Gideon the Ninth (I think this is a good book) has space necromancers and a Hunger Games like pitch, but it wouldn't have gotten as much attention if the pitch hadn't drawn the lgbtq base and people trying to read more of that kind of thing. Larry Correia's Monster Hunter books have the right-wing gun nut crowd on lockdown. Brandon Sanderson has his own nerd cult. Jemisin has her social justice awareness base. Ditto with John Scalzi, who had a large blog following. So, the book market operates roughly the way the stock market does--through fads and euphoria (read Robert Shiller). The Hugos operate in similar fashion. You have to capture a fan base, and that fan base is often supporting authors and books for reasons other than the purely literary merit. You can't really equate the rationality of the stock market with the rationality of the book market/hugos, but I would say that if we stretch a little we can make the case that both the book and stock markets are irrational because success is not based on business fundamentals (example: Gamestop's insane ticker price) or on literary merit (Twilight, Eragon) but on memes, fads, the support of ideologically driven groups, cults of personality, and other factors. I said that it was presumptive and sexist to say that I, personally, should read more female authors. I had a list of books by authors who wrote similar things to what I was looking for. There weren't many females on the list (were there any?). It was presumptive to assume I had not read many books by female writers based on a single list, but understandable given that the only data I provided was a list of largely males. But to my experience that sub-genre seems to be underserved by female writers. Some people gave me some recommendations, which I will check out, like the Curse of Chalion. But the issue I think you have a problem with is my disregard for the gender or sexual orientation of authors in my reading selection criteria. Look, really good writers are few and far between, and to find the kind of quality I'm looking for I want to cast my net as wide as possible. Writing is a skill that is practiced and refined. There are some authors who put out only one or two books and they're fantastic. They nail prose, descriptive passages, pacing, character voice. I am a writer. I read books clinically and pick them apart structurally on macro and micro levels. I am interested in how an author achieved a mood or effect. That's my main consideration when finding something to read. More often than not, I have to go outside of the F & SF genre to find things that I can learn from. If a great book has lgbtq+ characters, I'll read it, but it isn't a selling point. If it was written by a female, I'll read it, but again, not a selling point. Ditto, male. I said that background and experience was more interesting to me. If I'm looking to read a military SF, it's a selling point to me if the writer was in Seal Team Six. I'm going to read that book (though, again, writing talent is rare, and it's unlikely for someone to transition careers and become a fantastic story teller quickly unless they were born with all the gifts). If that person is female, in this case that would pique my interest even more, because a book by a real life female special forces operator is a rarer experience than one by a male. I don't get why that's a controversial opinion. I know sexism and discrimination hasn't been eliminated in the U.S. I never said that it had. I have personal experience confirming that racism is alive and well. My experience in the short fiction writing world has led me to believe that it's not an issue. Only pro markets matter. If you're going to say it is a problem, provide some proof. Show me the pro markets that have racist/sexist editors. Baen's Universe might have been a candidate back in the day, but it's no longer operative. The pro magazines and authors of today are VERY sensitive to issues...probably too sensitive (look at the recent Clarkesworld/ Attack Helicopter fiasco). I never said readers of fiction must mirror my experience. I really don't know what you're trying to say there. Reading is private and enjoyment subjective, and a hundred people can read the same thing and have totally experiences. Anyway, drat. It's not like I asked for books in the vein of Piers Anthony or John Norman with some well-written violence against women and forced bdsm themes. All I wanted was some secondary fantasy with good prose, not to explain my reading habits and defend my honor. On the flip side, it should be fine to for someone to say, "I just want to read Harlequin romance novels. The more formulaic the better" without coming under attack or having their personal character questioned. It's not your job to cultivate the personal growth of every reader and it comes off as judgmental when this should be a safe space to discuss things we like and don't like. I'm done now. No more from me on this topic or replying to low effort posts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 18:47
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BananaNutkins posted:I know sexism and discrimination hasn't been eliminated in the U.S. I never said that it had. I have personal experience confirming that racism is alive and well. My experience in the short fiction writing world has led me to believe that it's not an issue. Only pro markets matter. If you're going to say it is a problem, provide some proof. Show me the pro markets that have racist/sexist editors. lol
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Aug 15, 2021 18:53
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Ok.
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Aug 15, 2021 18:53
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It's not that big a deal, dude. Don't read women if you don't want to. The status quo supports your choice.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:37
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BananaNutkins posted:I said that it was presumptive and sexist to say that I, personally, should read more female authors. I had a list of books by authors who wrote similar things to what I was looking for. There weren't many females on the list (were there any?). It was presumptive to assume I had not read many books by female writers based on a single list, but understandable given that the only data I provided was a list of largely males. But to my experience that sub-genre seems to be underserved by female writers. Some people gave me some recommendations, which I will check out, like the Curse of Chalion. Ok here's an actual response: You're the one who defended your honor. You took it as a personal affront that you absolutely could not let pass. Why? Well, I don't want to be presumptive but it sure looks like uncomfortable defensiveness. If you had just let it lie rather than making it a thing, this conversation would have been over two days ago. You have a displayed a total lack of reflexivity in this entire conversation.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:41
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General Battuta posted:He’s a TERF. It's definitely not a series for everyone, but if you're ok with the grimdark nature of the setting it can be pretty refreshing to see gay and lesbian characters who are just unrepentant, vicious assholes. They're not witty or sophisticated or safe in any way; they're just hyperaggresive badasses flaunting their sexuality as a gently caress you to a world that hates them but needs them. I can't really think of any other good examples where gay guys in particular get to be like that. (Kameron Hurley would be the author I'd think of for more lesbian badasses in that vein.)
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Aug 15, 2021 19:51
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I just wrapped Vita Nostra. The book has some issues with the sorts of messages it’s trying to communicate. It’s ultimately a book about growing up and sublimating experience, and it uses wizard school as a metaphor for that. Sometimes it misses the mark, flails around in abstraction, but it shoots so high concept that I just have to love it. It’s rare that I’m unable to put down a book. I’m pretty ADHD and flit between things a lot, but I just couldn’t stop reading it. It’s harrowing and uncomfortable, and the first half will make pretty much anyone squirm. There’s a lot of abusive behavior in the book. The characters are put through an absolutely tortuous gauntlet as part of their education. It treats magic as magical, doesn’t fling juvvenilia at the wall. The kind of mysticism it offers is alien, unknowable, terrifying, and powerful. Very little fantasy manages this in a believable way without crawling up its own rear end or feeling poorly considered. It doesn’t hurt that the framing of the book places you so closely to the protagonist that you’re being dragged right alongside her as the mystery becomes more clear. If you don’t mind your fantasy definitively trying to say something, don’t mind a difficult journey, can deal with some degree of obtuseness, and like magic to feel genuinely beyond human comprehension, I definitely recommend it. In portions, it’s unrelenting and cruel. Taken as a whole, it’s very uplifting and affirming, but it takes a lot to get to that point. I loved it.
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Aug 15, 2021 20:29
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Cardiac posted:My ten (arbitrary currency) is that neither Yon Ha Lee or Tamsin Muir bring anything special in terms of storytelling. Both commits the usual sci-fi fallacy of having an interesting idea for a universe but fails in bringing anything new in the storytelling department. They are not special as authors and I was kinda disappointed by this, since I hoped that different viewpoints would result in something new. I kinda agree with you on this (though I like both those authors and think Tamsin Muir was different enough but ok). I’m gonna come at it from another angle here. Disclosure: I know C.L. Polk and a bunch of the New Zealand goons currently getting publishing deals from my writing server, and this comes up a lot. The problem is too many author’s unique voices get washed out by the whole genre publishing machine, from workshopping to pro editors. Writers are told how to write based on what has sold in the past, and storytelling styles that don’t fit that mold get edited to death until they’re the same tropey pap we’ve all read a thousand times before. It takes a lot of extra work for an author to push something so different their editor realizes the non-standard structure/prose/grammar is intentional rather than rubbing it out as a mistake. A newish author is less likely to push back, so they end up conforming to standards and leave their cultural difference in as mere window dressing. We’d have so much more to experience as readers if more authors found the chutzpah to say, “gently caress you, this is how my culture tells stories, I’m not here for this whitebread bullshit,” and go harder at their thing whenever an editor/writing workshop told them, “Umm… I don’t get this…”
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Aug 15, 2021 20:31
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Stuporstar posted:It takes a lot of extra work for an author to push something so different their editor realizes the non-standard structure/prose/grammar is intentional rather than rubbing it out as a mistake. A newish author is less likely to push back, so they end up conforming to standards and leave their cultural difference in as mere window dressing. We’d have so much more to experience as readers if more authors found the chutzpah to say, “gently caress you, this is how my culture tells stories, I’m not here for this whitebread bullshit,” and go harder at their thing whenever an editor/writing workshop told them, “Umm… I don’t get this…” This is a really good point. Couple things to hang off it though. I think saying gently caress you as a marginalized person feels like a risky proposition when you want to make creative expression—a dicey vocation with even the highest amounts of baked in privilege at your fingertips—part of your path. I’m sure a not insignificant number of marginalized authors just plain don’t want to rock the boat in an effort to protect their careers. Also, I see other writers attempting to demystify the creative process by boiling it down to mere work. While this is true, I think young writers might absorb a bit too much of this dreary message, and thus inhibit themselves creatively. Those types of messages don’t just propagate in publishing exclusively, and can have the effect of diminishing the kind of creativity that arises from intuitive, miraculous play. I’ll grant that’s a half-baked theory based on some personal experience, but I think it’s somewhat legit.
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Aug 15, 2021 20:49
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Stuporstar posted:The problem is too many author’s unique voices get washed out by the whole genre publishing machine, from workshopping to pro editors. Writers are told how to write based on what has sold in the past, and storytelling styles that don’t fit that mold get edited to death until they’re the same tropey pap we’ve all read a thousand times before. Even then, just look at what happened with Isabel Fall and “I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter". Crashbee fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 21:15
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^^Yes!BurningBeard posted:This is a really good point. Couple things to hang off it though. This is exactly it. Hemming to the standard can mean life or death to a new author, especially if they’re marginalized. Personally, I remember this poo poo as far back as my high school poetry group (yes mine was terrible) when the Vietnamese girl said, “… white, bright clouds…” and was told that was wrong. Her ESL teacher stood up for her and said, “Sure, that’s not how English people say it, but it’s poetry. ‘White bright’ is more interesting.” This is the poo poo that gets washed out over years of anglo creative writing courses and editing and so on, on the minutest level. On the macro level this happens to entire story structures. It’s not just on the publishing end, but on readers trained to certain expectations. When someone breaks those expectations, if it’s not as obviously done as to be classed Literary, people don’t go, “Oh that’s interesting.” They go, “Oh that’s wrong.” This is what we mean by implicit bias Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 21:25
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Stuporstar posted:^^Yes! There are a lot of crappy writing groups that do the same thing. You have to find other people who understand and respect your work, but are willing to call you out when something isn't working. I was in a group once that wanted everything to conform exactly to the writing help book " Save the Cat" by Blake Snyder. It was dreadful.
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Aug 15, 2021 21:55
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BananaNutkins posted:There are a lot of crappy writing groups that do the same thing. You have to find other people who understand and respect your work, but are willing to call you out when something isn't working. I was in a group once that wanted everything to conform exactly to the writing help book " Save the Cat" by Blake Snyder. It was dreadful. This is godawful, yes. That loving book has done so much damage to potentially good stories lol. But it doesn’t end there The current solution marginalized writers have found is publish then push back. Or make it so obviously non-standard it gets called Literary. Both roads are hard and a lot of people either fall off the publishing wagon or get so used to writing to standard, they stay thoroughly in “meh” territory. It takes a frustrated creative writing prof publishing a book like this to remind people that the “standard” was invented by the old white establishment and is loving arbitrary: https://www.amazon.com/Craft-Real-World-Rethinking-Workshopping-ebook/dp/B08DMW9LXG/ My own writing group’s saying has been “be on your bullshit” and it’s served us well so far. It basically means, make your poo poo so obviously, intentionally yours that anyone telling you it’s wrong is wrong Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 21:58
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I've posted about hating Muir before and got tipped a new one, so.
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Aug 15, 2021 23:14
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BananaNutkins posted:I was in a group once that wanted everything to conform exactly to the writing help book " Save the Cat" by Blake Snyder. It was dreadful. Of all the people to to take writing advice from, Blake "Golden Raspberry award for Worst Screenplay" Snyder?
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Aug 15, 2021 23:38
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Chalion down now onto Paladin of Souls. Lois McMaster Bujold is quickly becoming one of my favorite authors. Going to be devouring all her writings the rest of the year.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:13
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theblackw0lf posted:Chalion down now onto Paladin of Souls. I love her. The Vorkosigan Saga, sci-fi but with some political fantasy feel to it, is a great read. It does have a pretty much straight romance novel later on, so if the idea of that puts you off it may not be for you.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:33
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3rd raven's mark book by ed McDonald is out if anyone is interested. Very much like the previous ones. Grimish, broken world, low fantasy city with some magic.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:35
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theblackw0lf posted:Chalion down now onto Paladin of Souls. Paladin of Souls is my favorite. Don’t forget the Penric novellas when you’re done with the trilogy
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Aug 16, 2021 01:37
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packetmantis posted:I've posted about hating Muir before and got tipped a new one, so. Tamsyn Muir has been through an awful lot as a person so I think people are understandably protective. Hating the book is fine but very often that seems to bleed over into (an imaginary construct of) the author as a human being.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:45
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The Vorkosigan Saga is great because much like the Discworld books as the series goes on she starts experimenting with various genres to keep things fresh.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:51
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BananaNutkins posted:words FWIW I think what you're saying is fine and (some) people's low-effort rejoinders are much more tedious than a potentially unwelcome opinion. But be careful about saying things like "diversity of experience" which, as has been pointed out, is a well-known smokescreen for people like Ben Shapiro and has baggage beyond its at-first-glance-unobjectionable surface meaning. Anyway for content, re: reading more diverse writers, Ian Sales put together the SF Mistressworks list a few years ago as a response to the male-heavy SF Masterworks publishing series, which I think has a lot of more obscure and interesting picks for non-male writers on it: https://iansales.com/2014/04/07/the-sf-mistresswork-list-revised/
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Aug 16, 2021 02:04
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General Battuta posted:Tamsyn Muir has been through an awful lot as a person so I think people are understandably protective. To be clear I'm not saying you're doing this, just that people can get protective of authors who've been the center of the dreaded discourse even when the criticism coming at them isn't personal.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:04
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Is it better to start with Shards of Honor or the Warrior's Apprentice for Vorkosigan Saga stuff?
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Aug 16, 2021 02:05
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General Battuta posted:To be clear I'm not saying you're doing this, just that people can get protective of authors who've been the center of the dreaded discourse even when the criticism coming at them isn't personal. e: nah never mind I don't want to do this again, no one gives a poo poo packetmantis fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 02:08
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branedotorg posted:3rd raven's mark book by ed McDonald is out if anyone is interested. Very much like the previous ones. Great series, but you're two years late on this announcement 
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Aug 16, 2021 02:09
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Doom Mathematic posted:Of all the people to to take writing advice from, Blake "Golden Raspberry award for Worst Screenplay" Snyder? It’s even worse in the film industry, that book is required reading for every animation school story boarding class. If you were wondering why so many animated movie scripts are so homogenous...
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Aug 16, 2021 02:10
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Hiro Protagonist posted:Is it better to start with Shards of Honor or the Warrior's Apprentice for Vorkosigan Saga stuff? I liked Shards of Honor, and I don't think it's worth skipping to get to the main saga. The characters in it remain important through the entire series and it's one book. I've heard people say to skip it to get to Miles Vorkosigan but I don't agree.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:12
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Yeah, I started with Shards of Honour and thought it was a perfectly good starting point. If you find yourself hating it, you could put it down and go straight to the Miles books, but I think it's at least worth giving it a shot.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:15
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packetmantis posted:e: nah never mind I don't want to do this again, no one gives a poo poo Well for whatever it's worth, if you have criticism of a queer SFF author you can probably feel reasonably certain they're already haunted by it and feel like poo poo about it anywhere between one and forty times a day (usually around bedtime).
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Aug 16, 2021 02:21
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