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Edit: Fair warning, the RobertCByrd account cited in this tweet has definitely got some alt-right poo poo on it (like retweeting Jack Posobiec). I am not endorsing it in any way, just posting what appears to be another instance of folks being flown out. https://twitter.com/vcdgf555/status/1427359848987971600?s=21 generic one fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 22:28
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QuoProQuid posted:if this tweet thread from the (former) governor of afghanistan's central bank is to be believed, the afghan government was in denial as late as friday evening: sounds belivable. they think america is gonna either come roaring back to save them or that the spec ops legions of the ANA are gonna save them or etc. it sounds like that the higher ups basicaly got told "walk away or surrender but if you fight, you will be dead or worse within a week". https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1427370771488313344 QuoProQuid posted:this is a translation issue. macron called for evacuating and protecting afghan refugees who have worked with france and then briefly mentioned an EU migration program yeah, that sounded way to hosed up even for macron. anyway, everything i am hearing on twitter is that the US and the taliban are talking on the ground and the taliban is probably gonna just let them and the afganis who want too and can leave. my guess is they are killing people but its probably the remaining ANA spec ops types least for now.
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Aug 16, 2021 22:58
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If the Taliban just let everybody who wants to leave, leave, well that would be pretty wonderful. I suspect that'll be a lot of people.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:00
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Numlock posted:Yeah this isn't going to cost Biden and the Democrats in general a single vote. Yeah I'm picking up what he's putting down here, Biden will naturally take heat from this but this still won't wipe away the past four years from the public consensus, the damage done was too strong and people aren't exactly aching to crawl back to the GOP when they're gutting our voting rights and there's footage of Trump trying to take credit in withdrawing less than a month ago. I dunno, a lot of US citizens tend to forget a whole lot of things if it isn't directly affecting them personally, sad as it may be. He'll get burned six ways from Sunday by this for sure, but we're still over a year from midterms and 3+ away from a POTUS election. It's probably going to be the usual tribalistic Red vs Blue election that's now par for the course.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:09
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How are u posted:If the Taliban just let everybody who wants to leave, leave, well that would be pretty wonderful. I suspect that'll be a lot of people. Well there's 14.5 million Afghan women for starters.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:13
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How are u posted:If the Taliban just let everybody who wants to leave, leave, well that would be pretty wonderful. I suspect that'll be a lot of people. i mean i get their logic. why keep people around who will rise up and hate you and possibly another civil war in couple years. just let them go and cowl the rest with carrot and stick. also they won. this isnt the NVA fighting and killing their way to the embassy.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:15
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Agreed. America is well known for forgiving humiliating military defeats when it comes to presidents.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:16
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Parrotine posted:Yeah I'm picking up what he's putting down here, Biden will naturally take heat from this but this still won't wipe away the past four years from the public consensus, the damage done was too strong and people aren't exactly aching to crawl back to the GOP when they're gutting our voting rights and there's footage of Trump trying to take credit in withdrawing less than a month ago. I dunno, a lot of US citizens tend to forget a whole lot of things if it isn't directly affecting them personally, sad as it may be. its also kinda of dead end issue for the GOP too. like sure they will scream about it but like whats the alternative. stay? go full soviet invansion on the populus and hope this time terror campaigns works? no it was over and this was always gonna happen and everyone loving knew it. its just people are in denial.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:18
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Noblesse Obliged posted:Agreed. America is well known for forgiving humiliating military defeats when it comes to presidents. Well at least in this instance Biden doesn't have a son that has a chance at sniffing the Presidency, unlike W.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:18
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Noblesse Obliged posted:Agreed. America is well known for forgiving humiliating military defeats when it comes to presidents. There was no humiliating military defeat, tho? We can blow the Taliban up all day long forever if we wanted to. We just don't want to anymore.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:21
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The only thing that matters is getting the people to safety for those who need to be brought out of Afghanistan and it should have been accounted for, planned and executed better. This is what leadership should be held accountable for. Outside of getting people to safety, other things are moot. I think there's a lot of rationalization and coming to terms with this too. It's 20 years of global life and now it's ending in sudden chaotic fashion. I think there's an element of ego to it too "We lost, it's ending, we're pulling out? Who is to blame? What was it all for? I need to make sense of it and point at someone for an easy blame." Like it's been 20 years, every admin and politician from the warmongering grifting Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld to Obama/Biden to Trump/Pence to Biden/Harris and Military officials in that time and foreign powers who stuck their dick into Afghanistan is responsible for this. The CIA/Halliburton, etc. probably exploited enough grift and made bucks. Clearly in the last 20 years no one understood or gave a poo poo about what Afghanistan actually is, the culture, the tribal nature, consequences etc. to do a good job nor put in the necessary effort to nation build versus pass the buck and drag their feet so they wouldn't be "it." Which actually does support the notion to pull out and not continue bloodshed. Clearly the Afghan people didn't believe in the American backed govt. and preferred not to die so they went back to the Taliban the second the US said we'd exit. So good on Biden doing the hard thing and pull out and taking it on the chin but hosed up the people are going to suffer. I do think there's some calculation amongst the western nation politicians who have swing rightward like the US, France, UK that their white nationalistic xenophobic base would backlash if they took on refugees. Europe already doesn't want to and says as much. The GOP/Republicans/Conservatives and their white supremecist base would feast on this so gently caress them. The other thing that sucks is this is yet another situation where America promised and screwed people over. The US' word is poo poo. Now China's going to be next to stick their nose into Afghanistan and probably deal with the Taliban since they don't care about human rights and want to make inroads, and literal roads for economic development. It will be interesting to see if Afghanistan changes and makes incremental progress come over time naturally as a result or if China's going to be yet another Empire that falls if things go south there. But they'll probably be smarter about things. The real influence on Afghanistan is probably going to come through Pakistan's ISI since they're the ones who have trained and in the background influenced things there historically. Gatts fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 23:21
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Gatts posted:Now China's going to be next to stick their dick into Afghanistan  loving gross
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Aug 16, 2021 23:22
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Can’t stop thinking about the conversation mothers who lived with Taliban rule twenty years ago will have to have with their daughters who have been born in the past couple of decades, if they get the chance to have one. Imagine having to explain that poo poo.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:22
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Gatts posted:The only thing that matters is getting the people to safety for those who need to be brought out of Afghanistan and it should have been accounted for, planned and executed better. This is what leadership should be held accountable for. except the vast majority of the time, effort, and resources that will be spent on this particular historical event will instead be "attempting to pin every historical failure that made this war unwinnable by 2013 on the current president" as opposed to refugee resettlement
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Aug 16, 2021 23:23
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Jaxyon posted:
Yes, actually you are right. I will correct it.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:24
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Also "China doesn't care about human rights" Yeah neither does the US. Who do you think keeps vetoing every human rights treaty.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:25
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Why didn't they just widen the planes? e: wrong thread
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Aug 16, 2021 23:32
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Jaxyon posted:Also "China doesn't care about human rights" this kind of third grade, china daily-style political analysis makes me want to die.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:35
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How are u posted:There was no humiliating military defeat, tho? We can blow the Taliban up all day long forever if we wanted to. We just don't want to anymore. Brave leadership!
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Aug 16, 2021 23:35
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QuoProQuid posted:this kind of third grade, china daily-style political analysis makes me want to die. The US never card about human rights abuses of it's the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, the Saudi's, etc. We wanted to build roads not because we wanted life to be easier for the Afghanis but because we wanted infrastructure for mineral exploitation. What's 3rd grade about it? It's true. China doesn't give a poo poo about human rights either and is currently genociding Uyghers but the US was never a friend of human rights in Afghanistan.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:45
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Dapper_Swindler posted:its also kinda of dead end issue for the GOP too. like sure they will scream about it but like whats the alternative. stay? go full soviet invansion on the populus and hope this time terror campaigns works? no it was over and this was always gonna happen and everyone loving knew it. its just people are in denial. Well that's their moral dilemma, but I know conservatives with bad-faith arguments honestly do not care since it literally goes against their MAGA rallycry and 'America First' principles, since ending a twenty year war abroad does exactly that; focuses on America First over a foreign nation. This whole messy ordeal is gonna get drawn and quartered over the next few weeks, with the GOP using it as the golden opportunity to attack Biden they've been clamoring for all year. And it hugely sucks because another conflict will yet again be trivialized to a couple of debate bullet points like something you'd see on a amateur debate team. White Light fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 00:00
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How are u posted:There was no humiliating military defeat, tho? We can blow the Taliban up all day long forever if we wanted to. We just don't want to anymore. Turns out there is more to victory than subtracting the enemies casualties from your own and getting a positive sum.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:16
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Jaxyon posted:The US never card about human rights abuses of it's the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, the Saudi's, etc. If they only wanted to build roads to exploit minerals, you'd figured they'd have done that. I don't think the US built a single mine in Afghanistan. Bit late now. How are u posted:There was no humiliating military defeat, tho? We can blow the Taliban up all day long forever if we wanted to. We just don't want to anymore. "The most advanced military in the world" fleeing in panic from a bunch of people using their weapons against them is victory.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:24
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generic one posted:Edit: Fair warning, the RobertCByrd account cited in this tweet has definitely got some alt-right poo poo on it (like retweeting Jack Posobiec). I am not endorsing it in any way, just posting what appears to be another instance of folks being flown out. Those don't look like flights full of people from Afghanistan
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Aug 17, 2021 00:29
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Grip it and rip it posted:Those don't look like flights full of people from Afghanistan How are you landing on that conclusion? I can use my jump to conclusions mat and assume you’re saying that because they don’t appear to be folks originally from the region, but thought it would be worthwhile letting you explain.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:38
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fool of sound posted:Turns out there is more to victory than subtracting the enemies casualties from your own and getting a positive sum. I agree. We haven't won any victory in Afghanistan. We've failed at the stupid, poorly thought out and poorly executed nation-building campaign of 20 years. The poster I was responding to, however, said Biden would suffer because of "humiliating military defeats" and I just don't see that. The Taliban took over the country because nobody opposed them. We did not fight them, we let them take it. We're not being driven out on the point of a sword, we're giving up, correctly and way too late, on a poorly conceived goal that was probably never possible in the first place. If we did indeed suffer humiliating military defeats in battle that led to this and I just haven't heard about them then I'm open to learning.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:42
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LostRook posted:If they only wanted to build roads to exploit minerals, you'd figured they'd have done that. Why do you figure that? Building roads out into the country side is a huge indefensible target for people to blow up, which happened quite a lot. Let alone building mines. Just the attempt to do so was all we needed to say our presense there was "humanitarian" to justify the mil-industrial complex spending, and if we pulled it off, great. Money. The Taliban is already making money off mining, it's assumed. By this logic, if the US wanted to build human rights protections, you'd figure they'd have done that. The US built what it wanted, which was a money making operation for anyone who makes money off our gigantic military.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:42
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Love our hosed up country that even after a debacle this embarrassing there's approximately a 0% chance that a single politician will even bring up hey maybe we should spend less on the military.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:43
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Jaxyon posted:The US never card about human rights abuses of it's the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, the Saudi's, etc. if the united states did not care about human rights, it would not have spent two decades pouring money into afghanistan’s civil society, promoting the rights of women, and trying to foster a democratic society. obviously much of its work was flawed. obviously concessions were made and there were projects that wound up funneling resources into the hands of kleptocrats and shady dc consultants. but the insinuation that the entire apparatus of the us government—alongside hundreds of ngos and state partners—“never cared” and was cackling menacingly is a child’s conception of international affairs. it is a flattening of the situation to fit into a simplistic, easily digestible narrative.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:48
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uPen posted:Love our hosed up country that even after a debacle this embarrassing there's approximately a 0% chance that a single politician will even bring up hey maybe we should spend less on the military. Think of the savings! QuoProQuid posted:if the united states did not care about human rights, it would not have spent two decades pouring money into afghanistan’s civil society, promoting the rights of women, and trying to foster a democratic society. obviously much of its work was flawed. obviously concessions were made and there were projects that wound up funneling resources into the hands of kleptocrats and shady dc consultants. but the insinuation that the entire apparatus of the us government—alongside hundreds of ngos and state partners—“never cared” and was cackling menacingly is a child’s conception of international affairs. it is a flattening of the situation to fit into a simplistic, easily digestible narrative. We cared about it insomuch as those things are very useful at preventing a client nation's puppet government from collapsing as you rob them blind. Had there been nothing to pillage we would have bounced forever ago. Sedisp fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 00:49
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Jaxyon posted:Why do you figure that? Building roads out into the country side is a huge indefensible target for people to blow up, which happened quite a lot. Let alone building mines. You said they only built roads for mineral exploitation now you're saying they not only didn't exploit minerals, they didn't build roads either? What? Sedisp posted:
How is promoting women's rights useful at "preventing a client nation's puppet government from collapsing as you rob them blind" because I don't see it. LostRook fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 00:51
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QuoProQuid posted:if the united states did not care about human rights, it would not have spent two decades pouring money into afghanistan’s civil society, promoting the rights of women, and trying to foster a democratic society. obviously much of its work was flawed. obviously concessions were made and there were projects that wound up funneling resources into the hands of kleptocrats and shady dc consultants. but the insinuation that the entire apparatus of the us government—alongside hundreds of ngos and state partners—“never cared” and was cackling menacingly is a child’s conception of international affairs. it is a flattening of the situation to fit into a simplistic, easily digestible narrative. "The US cares very much about human rights, it's just super incompetent" sure is a take. A budget is a moral document. Where did most of the 2.25 Trillion go? LostRook posted:You said they only built roads for mineral exploitation now you're saying they not only didn't exploit minerals, they didn't build roads either? Everyone building roads mostly wants the infrastructure for economic exploitation to exist, but since that's not great PR they always say it's to help the poor villagers who mostly don't give a poo poo about new roads. They built roads. Then the roads got blown up, which means we spend more money building roads. The money is in the contractor grift, and the main military grift. If we actually got some roads to stick and our political control to stick, sure we could do some mineral exploitation and that's great. But you're right, the roads weren't there just for the mineral wealth. They were also contractor grift vvv Yeah every once in a while a true believer wanders into these discussions. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 00:52
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QuoProQuid posted:if the united states did not care about human rights, it would not have spent two decades pouring money into afghanistan’s civil society, promoting the rights of women, and trying to foster a democratic society. obviously much of its work was flawed. obviously concessions were made and there were projects that wound up funneling resources into the hands of kleptocrats and shady dc consultants. but the insinuation that the entire apparatus of the us government—alongside hundreds of ngos and state partners—“never cared” and was cackling menacingly is a child’s conception of international affairs. it is a flattening of the situation to fit into a simplistic, easily digestible narrative. Holy loving poo poo! 
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Aug 17, 2021 00:52
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QuoProQuid posted:if the united states did not care about human rights, it would not have spent two decades pouring money into afghanistan’s civil society, promoting the rights of women, and trying to foster a democratic society. obviously much of its work was flawed. obviously concessions were made and there were projects that wound up funneling resources into the hands of kleptocrats and shady dc consultants. but the insinuation that the entire apparatus of the us government—alongside hundreds of ngos and state partners—“never cared” and was cackling menacingly is a child’s conception of international affairs. it is a flattening of the situation to fit into a simplistic, easily digestible narrative. If the united states DID care about human rights why did it spend two decades telling our troops there to ignore and allow children to be sold and traded as sex slaves? Calling that work "flawed" misses the mark to me.
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Aug 17, 2021 00:56
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QuoProQuid posted:if the united states did not care about human rights, it would not have spent two decades pouring money into afghanistan’s civil society, promoting the rights of women, and trying to foster a democratic society. obviously much of its work was flawed. obviously concessions were made and there were projects that wound up funneling resources into the hands of kleptocrats and shady dc consultants. but the insinuation that the entire apparatus of the us government—alongside hundreds of ngos and state partners—“never cared” and was cackling menacingly is a child’s conception of international affairs. it is a flattening of the situation to fit into a simplistic, easily digestible narrative. Yeah you're right if the United States government cared about human rights they would have never sent out giant lists of people to be killed by the special forces. They also wouldn't have sanctioned getting canoed and allowed any Gallagher to go free after killing literally hundreds of old people and children. I don't really understand this take and it must be one that is completely mired in neoliberalism. I mean how can you say that these blood sucking mongrels who just wanted to increase the amount of oil coming out of Iraq and increase the body count in Afghanistan cared about human rights?
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Aug 17, 2021 00:56
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LostRook posted:How is promoting women's rights useful at "preventing a client nation's puppet government from collapsing as you rob them blind" because I don't see it. The more egalitarian a society the less likely it is to create eager recruits for extremist organization. Perhaps for example a religious fundamentalist organization recently deposed? And for that sweet sweet PR
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Aug 17, 2021 00:59
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Yeah you're right if the United States government cared about human rights they would have never sent out giant lists of people to be killed by the special forces. They also wouldn't have sanctioned getting canoed and allowed any Gallagher to go free after killing literally hundreds of old people and children. Listen despite all evidence to the contrary staring me right in the face, we're the good guys. You see, I never grew beyond a 3rd grade hagiography of the country I live in.
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Aug 17, 2021 01:00
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Sedisp posted:The more egalitarian a society the less likely it is to create eager recruits for extremist organization. Perhaps for example a religious fundamentalist organization recently deposed? What percentage of Americans voted for Trump?
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Aug 17, 2021 01:02
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Tbh if you find yourself asking "why would the US do this uncharacteristically good thing in a foreign nation if they didn't want to do good things" you're kind of answering the question.LostRook posted:What percentage of Americans voted for Trump? Under a quarter
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Aug 17, 2021 01:03
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Parrotine posted:Well that's their moral dilemma, but I know conservatives with bad-faith arguments honestly do not care since it literally goes against their MAGA rallycry and 'America First' principles, since ending a twenty year war abroad does exactly that; focuses on America First over a foreign nation. yeah and i didnt mean to trivilize it into that. its just interesting seeing shitholes like R/conservative agree more with us on basic idea (war bad, glad we left and should have years ago) then they are the weird trumpist/gop/fox godhead which is trying to 180 on the issue because "wow extracting a nation from a 20 year failure quagmire doesn't end well and in some hosed up ways, it could have been way worse then it is right now" is to complext and self critical for the GOP or most of america in general.
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Aug 17, 2021 01:12
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