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Well, if that next level is drow territory, we got a slightly less moral dilemma there. They kidnapped the dwarf prince and we are mounting a rescue. Unless we find him making out with a drow babe of whom his people wouldn’t approve or doing a secret peace conference or something similar, slaughtering dark elves on our way to him should be ok.
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Aug 10, 2021 11:14
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For a lot of the "what we're doing is kind of hosed up" talk, the most charitable interpretation is "this was a major cultural blind spot of Gygax et al so they didn't really think about how this would come across." A considerably less charitable (but probably more accurate, sadly) interpretation is that Gygax et al knew exactly what message they were sending and the "doing a colonialism" is 100% intentional.
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Aug 11, 2021 16:39
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MechaCrash posted:For a lot of the "what we're doing is kind of hosed up" talk, the most charitable interpretation is "this was a major cultural blind spot of Gygax et al so they didn't really think about how this would come across." A considerably less charitable (but probably more accurate, sadly) interpretation is that Gygax et al knew exactly what message they were sending and the "doing a colonialism" is 100% intentional. Remember that Gygax's response in an interview to the question of killing orc babies was "Nits make lice."
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Aug 11, 2021 16:40
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Cythereal posted:Remember that Gygax's response in an interview to the question of killing orc babies was "Nits make lice." For some additional yucky context, the phrase "nits make lice" was coined to excuse the genocide of indigenous Americans
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Aug 11, 2021 17:56
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In retrospect it's good that Gygax died that early. and I'm saying that as a fan of role playing games.
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Aug 11, 2021 18:53
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The next update should probably be ready sometime tomorrow. Before that, I went back and made some edits to the sewer level updates. I re-titled the first level update and added notes about starting spells. I made additional notes about spells in the second and third level updates, which will have relevance in the next one:quote:Aid gives one character the hit bonus of Bless and 1-8 temporary HP, which can go above their max. There is a very helpful bug with this spell: when it expires, that character's HP will return to whatever they were before it was cast on them, even if they're now lower. So a character with max HP who has Aid cast on them can get a full heal at the end. quote:On the way into the southwest portion of this level, I find a mage scroll of Fireball. This causes damage to everything in a single tile. It's not quite the weapon of mass destruction it is in other games, but still useful against groups and less likely to burn your own characters. I go ahead and teach Dave this spell since there's another scroll for it later, but he's almost certainly not going to reach a high enough level to cast it.
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Aug 13, 2021 21:45
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In the future- Fighter- "Drow! Quick, Dave, cast Fireball!" Other possibly stoned Party Member- "Dave's not here, man!"
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Aug 13, 2021 21:49
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That bug with the spell 'Aid' sure is nice. I never knew about that.
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Aug 14, 2021 00:00
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EOTB 7: Ate Nine Level 7 is the start of drow territory, and we are immediately confronted by their guards. Listen to them be absolutely not intimidating here.  I try to bribe them but don't have what they want right now.  This is not enough to make them hostile, which is good because a fight with them would be a pain in the rear end. There's no room to maneuver and these drow can paralyze with their hits, which we currently have no way to remedy. I go back and get what he's hinting at:   NB: Be sure to leave at least three eggs behind, they are still used for something later. Yes, I did just sell kenku into slavery, but I also just explained why fighting the drow would be annoying, so I clearly made the right moral choice.   Here's the layout. The orange arrows are paths of fireballs, and the letters are places their launchers are activated. Note that one of the arrows goes through a red circle. That means the drow's brilliant security posted a guard where he can get hit by a fireball. If that happens, it counts as an attack against them and earns their hostility. My destination is the northeast corner. The button at the first tile marked B will close the pit ahead of it and launch a fireball over the next one. The other B tile will launch a fireball every time you step on it, but that won't harm you if you just wait for it. Incidentally, the B tiles are also the area where drow guards start spawning after they become hostile.   We get there to find three doors all opened by this plate.  Two of them are occupied by skeletal lords, which are among the most dangerous monsters in this game. They move and attack very quickly, and can do damage up to the teens with each hit. They also take half damage from sharp weapons - the Chieftan Halberd's bonuses give it damage on par with a mundane blunt weapon with better chance to hit. Luckily they only approached one at a time, to the 2x2 room where the plate is (this is the second one).  The third door has the remains of the half-elf cleric Ileria. Their presence here suggests she was going to be turned into another skeletal lord. The holy symbol might be what prevented that.  On the way back I use a key I got to unlock some stairs up.  This leads to a small, isolated section of level 6 where we find the key to that level's portal.  There are several items on this level guarded by drow that you can only get by attacking them. All of the drow here are male. There is exactly one drow woman in the game, who we won't meet until we leave their territory (on that note, this is the only drow level that actually has them). Strange considering their matriarchal society is one of the few bits of D&D lore I'm aware of.  Ileria has her name spelled differently in her introduction. The skeletal lords we fought were likely her previous companions. If her offer is refused:  I take her and also drop Taghor to increase everyone else's experience gain. The dwarves are not going to be in the final party.  Ileria has the minimum possible wisdom for a cleric, and is also "officially" male in a presumable error.  This is the northwestern "A" plate. I step on it and quickly dodge the fireball it launches, thereby declaring war on the drow. The loot I get from this includes a Luckstone Medallion (which I think improves saving throws but I'm not entirely sure) and several scrolls, including some I got while they were still peaceful: Bless Create Food (brings everyone's hunger meter to full, making rations pretty much obsolete) Fireball (the only mage scroll) Protection From Evil 10' Radius (whole party defense buff) Remove Paralysis (does what is says for the whole party, right when it becomes relevant) Slow Poison (despite the drow love of spider motifs, there are no spiders anywhere further on, nor any other monster that poisons)  The southeast portion of level 7 is separated from the rest by a section that goes through all three drow levels.  It is a series of short hallways with lots of stairs and locked doors. I find a red gem and a drow key here.  This is an illusory wall, leading to a locked door. The key I just picked up is not the one to unlock it. Annoyingly, the locks are all identical-looking for three different key types.  A button will turn a gem on this shelf into a jeweled key.  On the opposite side of that room, there is text we can't translate.  Until now. Dorhum won't be a member of the final party so I don't mind doing that. I bring the party gender balance while I'm at it.  Translated or not, the writing marks level 9's special quest. Throw or fire an object over it to remove the wall and get three orbs of power. They allow items to be identified at the Oracle of Knowledge in level 4.  A different section of level 9 labeled "Storage" gives an early introduction to one of its monsters, the displacer beast. If they have their image projection ability here it's in the form of being harder to hit. The room next to this has scrolls of Armor and Flame Blade.  This sneaky button removes the wall next to it. That opens a path to another illusionary wall with a spider mark which hides a drow key. This one does not directly open a door, but is instead used here:  The button will turn any key on the shelf into a red gem.  Put that gem in here to open this door. Behind it is a ruby key, the type needed to open the door at the start of this section. (I slightly cheat and use ASE's teleport to get there and back to save myself having to remember or look up where all the stairs go).  These items are in the room behind it, along with another ruby key. The drow bow is functionally identical to the one I already have, but better-looking IMO. Vampiric Touch drains life from an enemy and can bring the mage's HP above max, but requires them to be in the front row to do so.  The gem door goes to a short hallway with an upward staircase on each end. The western one leads here. There is a skeletal lord behind a door next to this message. It's in a 2x2 room, but likely to meet you at the door due to its fast movement and thus force you to fight with no space to move. The Aid bug saved me some healing here.  Past that, you must give up a small item to proceed further.  In one corner of a square hall is the only pit which will not cause fall damage. Another corner has a Ring of Protection +2.  It leads here. This teleporter goes back to the gem door. There is a room behind it with a scroll of Raise Dead and a Potion of Extra Healing.  The east stairs go into this hallway. It has two doors that will close behind you, along with another message saying "Fight for your freedom." This will lock you into the final section of level 7 in the southeast, which will be covered in the next update. Alpha3KV fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 08:37
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So ARE the drow reasonably defeatable at this stage? And are the rewards for bonking them all worth the bother that would be involved? Or are they best bribed and bypassed?
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Aug 15, 2021 08:52
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PurpleXVI posted:So ARE the drow reasonably defeatable at this stage? And are the rewards for bonking them all worth the bother that would be involved? Or are they best bribed and bypassed? If you can beat skeletal lords, you can beat drow. Their main threat is numbers and the possibility of surrounding that brings. None of the stuff they guard is very exciting, so I'd say bribing and leaving them alone is the best option.
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Aug 15, 2021 09:08
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This is the only depiction of drow with facial hair I’ve ever seen.
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Aug 15, 2021 09:55
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That voice acting takes me right back to playing DnD as a teenager "You can pass but- NO JIM those are my Cheetos! Ya huh! no I was not done talking, I'm getting to it."
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Aug 15, 2021 12:46
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So I've been thinking about the Kenku eggs. If the assumption was that the nest was their hatchery, but most of the eggs are found outside of the hatchery, doesn't that imply that they were not concerned about hatching those eggs? I'm pretty sure that even if "Bring your child to work day" existed in D&D, that an unhatched egg would count as your child at that point. So really, what was done was that SOMEONE collected all the unfertalozed eggs, mixed them in with the fertilized eggs, and now the kenku are going to have a hell of a time figuring out which need to be hatched. This would also mean you handed the drow your breakfast.
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Aug 15, 2021 12:48
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Why in the nine hells did you not only kick all 4 of the original PCs, but also kick Taghor so you're left with 4 characters? Are 2 slots reserved for player-made characters, or is there something about the terms of the challenge that I'm not getting?
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Aug 15, 2021 14:38
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Pierzak posted:Why in the nine hells did you not only kick all 4 of the original PCs, but also kick Taghor so you're left with 4 characters? Are 2 slots reserved for player-made characters, or is there something about the terms of the challenge that I'm not getting? I was wondering the same thing. 
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Aug 15, 2021 14:44
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To be honest I initially didn't really have any conditions beyond ending each game with a certain NPC party. After level 5 I decided that whenever I get four new recruits in a game, I'll drop any remaining members of the previous party. No rules about what happens between then. In this game, there are six recruits who start off dead that will be the final party. Taghor isn't one of them, so I dropped him to give bigger XP shares to those who are. It didn't really have anything to do with particular challenge conditions, just something I did for my own benefit.
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Aug 15, 2021 22:01
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Well if you leave the eggs in the nest, the drow were like 10 steps away from them AND you've probably killed all the adult kenku so the chicks would starve anyway. Is certain death preferable to slavery?  These elves... have moustaches!  They're not supposed to have those!!There only being men around is sort of understandable - they would put men to work as lowly grunts, the women are too important. Huh, I was sure you were dropping Dohrum if someone was going to go. His hat is much more boring. I support our gender fluid cleric Pierzak posted:Why in the nine hells did you not only kick all 4 of the original PCs, but also kick Taghor so you're left with 4 characters? All else aside, you don't really have any use for a third fighter since you'd have to juggle ammo to attack from the second/third row anyway. There's not much point in having them unless you're really pressed for inventory space somehow.
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Aug 15, 2021 23:23
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vilkacis posted:All else aside, you don't really have any use for a third fighter quote:There's not much point in having them unless you're really pressed for inventory space somehow.
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Aug 16, 2021 00:50
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vilkacis posted:AND you've probably killed all the adult kenku The kenku actually respawn at a very high rate. This along with their abnormally high XP value makes them ideal grinding targets for somebody who wants to do that. I took Dorhum over Taghor because of his higher strength.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:23
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Alpha3KV posted:In this game, there are six recruits who start off dead that will be the final party. Taghor isn't one of them, so I dropped him to give bigger XP shares to those who are.
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Aug 16, 2021 06:37
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vilkacis posted:These elves... have moustaches! Maybe they ran out of male Drow to man the front lines, so they gave a bunch of female Drow fake moustaches and told them to pretend to be inferior men until they could patch up the ranks? 
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Aug 16, 2021 11:14
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"No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Even if they do say Lolth!"
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Aug 16, 2021 15:50
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inscrutable horse posted:"No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Even if they do say Lolth!"
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Aug 16, 2021 16:14
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Alpha3KV posted:To be honest I initially didn't really have any conditions beyond ending each game with a certain NPC party. After level 5 I decided that whenever I get four new recruits in a game, I'll drop any remaining members of the previous party. No rules about what happens between then. In this game, there are six recruits who start off dead that will be the final party. Taghor isn't one of them, so I dropped him to give bigger XP shares to those who are. It didn't really have anything to do with particular challenge conditions, just something I did for my own benefit. inscrutable horse posted:"No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Even if they do say Lolth!"
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Aug 16, 2021 16:16
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I made a few minor edits. A little correction about the displacer beast, pointing out where drow start spawning after they're hostile, noting some implications about Ileria's remains being where they are, and explaining Taghor's removal.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:09
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Pierzak posted:Pack mule. vilkacis posted:unless you're really pressed for inventory space somehow. C'mon. Alpha3KV posted:The kenku actually respawn at a very high rate. This along with their abnormally high XP value makes them ideal grinding targets for somebody who wants to do that. I took Dorhum over Taghor because of his higher strength. Huh. Didn't remember that! Also entirely aside from stats i can't really complain about you using Dorhum because i don't think i've ever taken him. Must be nice for him to get some action! ...I mean, for her, obviously.  PurpleXVI posted:Maybe they ran out of male Drow to man the front lines, so they gave a bunch of female Drow fake moustaches and told them to pretend to be inferior men until they could patch up the ranks? Well they're clearly highly inferior if they have, ugh, facial hair, like a bunch of dwarves or something...!
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Aug 17, 2021 17:44
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Wow, that cleric and her/his wisdom score. Almost as if the NPCs aren't worth using or something, at least compared to max statted custom PCs. That fireball trap does explain why the drow decided to randomly attack me later when I used to play the SNES version.
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Aug 17, 2021 22:38
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vilkacis posted:C'mon.
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Aug 17, 2021 22:45
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wafflemoose posted:Wow, that cleric and her/his wisdom score. Almost as if the NPCs aren't worth using or something, at least compared to max statted custom PCs. Honestly it feels like every single D&D videogame does this, where every single pre-made is made in a way that no player ever would because they're often not just SLIGHTLY sub-optimal, but usually incredibly sub-optimal.
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Aug 17, 2021 22:49
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PurpleXVI posted:Honestly it feels like every single D&D videogame does this, where every single pre-made is made in a way that no player ever would because they're often not just SLIGHTLY sub-optimal, but usually incredibly sub-optimal. See I feel like they genuinely felt like players would just make characters that were like this, because that's how you were supposed to make characters in D&D. Your rolls came up lovely? Well that's your character now. I think they intended the whole "you can manually set your stats" thing to just allow people to recreate their tabletop characters, and the "or you could just max out all your stats" thing was just something they didn't really think/care about.
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Aug 17, 2021 23:16
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To be fair, in 2e rules (unlike 3e and beyond) her spells aren't less effective or easier to save against, she just gets the base amount of spells and no bonus ones.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:03
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The Cheshire Cat posted:See I feel like they genuinely felt like players would just make characters that were like this, because that's how you were supposed to make characters in D&D. Your rolls came up lovely? Well that's your character now. I think they intended the whole "you can manually set your stats" thing to just allow people to recreate their tabletop characters, and the "or you could just max out all your stats" thing was just something they didn't really think/care about. That's probably it. One of the characters in Dragonlance was based on a home campaign and he had genuinely rolled a 3 for con, so throughout the novels he was always sickly as poo poo but he was a wizard so no one cared.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:49
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seaborgium posted:That's probably it. One of the characters in Dragonlance was based on a home campaign and he had genuinely rolled a 3 for con, so throughout the novels he was always sickly as poo poo but he was a wizard so no one cared. Yep, Raistlin. Yet his official scores in all of the source material had his Con as being about 9, which is average with no penalties (at least in 2e). I know why they did this: a mage with 3 con would literally get 1 hp per level and would be drat near unplayable. Frail sickly character works well in a novel with full narrative control, not so much in a campaign when he can be one-shot easily... especially in a setting where mages are largely feared and hated and people very much want to kill them, even the good ones.
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Aug 18, 2021 01:02
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But what Raistlin lacked in CON he made up for in hilarious melodrama.
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Aug 18, 2021 09:35
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Forget Tolkien's elves, Raistlin was the OG drama queen.
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Aug 18, 2021 09:46
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JustJeff88 posted:To be fair, in 2e rules (unlike 3e and beyond) her spells aren't less effective or easier to save against, she just gets the base amount of spells and no bonus ones. At 12- Wisdom, Clerics have a chance of spell failure on cast(5% per point below 13, so 20% at 9 Wisdom), and at 17- Intelligence, Mages are limited in their maximum spell level(a 9 Int mage never gets beyond 4th level spells) The Cheshire Cat posted:See I feel like they genuinely felt like players would just make characters that were like this, because that's how you were supposed to make characters in D&D. Your rolls came up lovely? Well that's your character now. I think they intended the whole "you can manually set your stats" thing to just allow people to recreate their tabletop characters, and the "or you could just max out all your stats" thing was just something they didn't really think/care about. I've never played with a group who actually did 3d6 down the line, though. It was either 3d6 place as you please, 4d6-drop-lowest or something like it. 2nd edition even predicted this and has a debate on which way of rolling up/assigning stats best fits your group in the 2nd ed DMG. Plus, if you DID roll a 3d6-down-the-line with a poo poo Wisdom, you wouldn't pick a Cleric, Ileria's stat line would make for a much better rogue.
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Aug 18, 2021 10:47
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PurpleXVI posted:At 12- Wisdom, Clerics have a chance of spell failure on cast(5% per point below 13, so 20% at 9 Wisdom), and at 17- Intelligence, Mages are limited in their maximum spell level(a 9 Int mage never gets beyond 4th level spells) I (sadly) remembered this, but I don't think that the 5% failure chance is reflected in this game and the intelligence limit is irrelevant in this game as well as EoB1 is a low-level adventure. Problematic in pen & paper, but not an issue here. Even in EoB3 getting to that high of level isn't really organic, but if I'm wrong about the spell failure thing let me know.
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Aug 18, 2021 15:49
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As far as this series goes, there is no casting failure and the mental stats don't determine the highest spell level that can be cast. The only consequence of Ileria's wisdom is a lack of bonus experience and spells.
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Aug 18, 2021 19:14
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I think they intended the whole "you can manually set your stats" thing to just allow people to recreate their tabletop characters Yeah, this is something i'm pretty sure i saw explicitly stated in some of the manuals. JustJeff88 posted:I know why they did this: a mage with 3 con would literally get 1 hp per level and would be drat near unplayable. A mage with 7 con is more or less indistinguishable from one with 9 though, and would at least have been a little more accurate to the source material. PurpleXVI posted:At 12- Wisdom, Clerics have a chance of spell failure on cast(5% per point below 13, so 20% at 9 Wisdom)  I completely forgot spell failure being a thing. I don't think any of the crpgs actually implemented it though... Alpha3KV posted:The only consequence of Ileria's wisdom is a lack of bonus experience and spells. ...but then again they might have, since i had no idea EotB had bothered to include bonus exp, either!
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Aug 18, 2021 19:39
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